The Big 3 of Grass--put them in order

[NoleFam]

You just knew this thread would get messy as this topic does everytime it comes up. All 3 are gods on grass. Amazing champions who are all different from each other and wrecked Centre Court. No need to disrespect one of them to prop up another one but that's what you do all the time on here so the discussions are pointless. @zagor is one of the few Federer fans who can actually have a real objective discussion on this.

 

[RS]

Does anybody remember my thread which got nuked "did Djokovic deserve 7 Wim titles"?

 

[NoleFam]

Coping Indefinitely Era.

LOL, excellent. I concur.

 

[StrongRule]

You just knew this thread would get messy as this topic does everytime it comes up. All 3 are gods on grass. Amazing champions who are all different from each other and wrecked Centre Court. No need to disrespect one of them to prop up another one but that's what you do all the time on here so the discussions are pointless. @zagor is one of the few Federer fans who can actually have a real objective discussion on this.

Except he is not a Federer fan, and surely not someone who can be taken seriously on anything.

 

[RS]

Except he is not a Federer fan, and surely not someone who can be taken seriously on anything.

He is definitely a Fed fan lol

 

[NoleFam]

Except he is not a Federer fan, and surely not someone who can be taken seriously on anything.

Wrong once again.

 

[StrongRule]

He is definitely a Fed fan lol

Nah, he looks like one of those "Federer fans" who suddenly became big Djokovic fanboys in 2011.

 

[StrongRule]

Wrong once again.

Indeed, you are wrong, as usual.

 

[NatF]

He is definitely a Fed fan lol

100%, think he's Serbian (?) and a fan of Djokovic too but he was definitely a Fedfan first.

 

[StrongRule]

100%, think he's Serbian (?) and a fan of Djokovic too but he was definitely a Fedfan first.

Maybe somewhere before 2011.

 

[Hitman]

Except he is not a Federer fan, and surely not someone who can be taken seriously on anything.

He is very much a Fed fan first

 

[NatF]

Maybe somewhere before 2011.

Whatever lol.

 

[RS]

100%, think he's Serbian (?) and a fan of Djokovic too but he was definitely a Fedfan first.

Yeah he is Serbian pretty sure.

 

[Feather]

Except he is not a Federer fan, and surely not someone who can be taken seriously on anything.

Terribly wrong

@zagor is a Roger Federer fan first.. I am hundred percent sure. Had many one to one exchanges with him for years

 

[travlerajm]

The real Big3 of grass is:

Pete-Mac-Boris. In that order.

I don’t care how many titles they won.

 

[nolefam_2024]

The real Big3 of grass is:

Pete-Mac-Boris. In that order.

I don’t care how many titles they won.

You are writing this and losing credibility. If you don't care about titles or anything then you can make berdych number 1. Simple.

 

[travlerajm]

You are writing this and losing credibility. If you don't care about titles or anything then you can make berdych number 1. Simple.

Nice strawman.

 

[DSH]

Novak before turning 30 12 slams
Novak after turning 30 12 slams.
player tend to decline after 30 but it seems novak remained same .how this is possible.

Sounds pretty suspicious actually.

 

[Djokovic2011]

You just knew this thread would get messy as this topic does everytime it comes up. All 3 are gods on grass. Amazing champions who are all different from each other and wrecked Centre Court. No need to disrespect one of them to prop up another one but that's what you do all the time on here so the discussions are pointless. @zagor is one of the few Federer fans who can actually have a real objective discussion on this.

If every Federer fan was more like zagor TTW would be a much better place.

 

[RS]

zagor helps me out with boxing as well.

 

[StrongRule]

If every Federer fan was more like zagor TTW would be a much better place.

Right, a good user is one who thinks Djokovic is a better player on clay than Nadal. The logic of Djokovic fans.

 

[NoleFam]

If every Federer fan was more like zagor TTW would be a much better place.

Agreed.

 

[RS]

 

[TMF]

If every Federer fan was more like zagor TTW would be a much better place.

This forum would be a wonderful place if some ignorant Djoker fans have humility rather than extreme entitlement, sheer arrogance and disrespect

 

[Martin J]

zagor is the nadal fan

 

[DSH]

zagor is the nadal fan

 

[inflation_era]

Not quite since alca is far away from Nole in Wimbledon titles won. But Fed only has 1 more than nole

Nadal above Djokovic at USO???

 

[DSH]

Nadal above Djokovic at USO???

Before his title in 2023, Nadal was above him, not anymore.
10 finals against 5, that's a big difference.
Anyway, it is the Big 3's Major tournament where they are most equal.

 

[Barton]

100%, think he's Serbian (?) and a fan of Djokovic too but he was definitely a Fedfan first.

He's a beer fan.

 

[NatF]

He's a beer fan.

Ok "new user"

 

[optic yellow]

Ok "new user"

I've been told that Serbians are big fans of beer.

 

[RS]

I've been told that Serbians are big fans of beer.

In UK as well

 

[Poisoned Slice]

zagor is the nadal fan

Spoiler

 

[TMF]

Not quite since alca is far away from Nole in Wimbledon titles won. But Fed only has 1 more than nole

Not quite since Nole vultured his Wimbledons against the weakest era of all time(CIE)

 

[TMF]

Nadal above Djokovic at USO???

 

[GRASScaraz]

Alcaraz>>> Djokovic on grass

 

[RS]

Alcaraz>>> Djokovic on grass

Hewitt's lob clears

 

[duaneeo]

Except he is not a Federer fan, and surely not someone who can be taken seriously on anything.

Better yet, who cares what Nole fans think of Federer fans.

 

[StrongRule]

Before his title in 2023, Nadal was above him, not anymore.
10 finals against 5, that's a big difference.
Anyway, it is the Big 3's Major tournament where they are most equal.

Finals don't really matter. Just as asterisk era titles. Nadal's peak was higher.

 

[optic yellow]

In UK as well

Hardish to find a European country where this statement doesn't feel like it rings true.

 

[Rosstour]

You just knew this thread would get messy as this topic does everytime it comes up. All 3 are gods on grass. Amazing champions who are all different from each other and wrecked Centre Court. No need to disrespect one of them to prop up another one but that's what you do all the time on here so the discussions are pointless. @zagor is one of the few Federer fans who can actually have a real objective discussion on this.

Disrespect to any player was not my aim in making the thread, I wanted to know if my feeling about the forum's consensus was accurate, and it obviously was not.

I was sure Sampras would come out with a huge lead and that there would be a slight bias towards Fed in the #2 spot. I was wrong

 

[Barton]

Djokovic probably vultured two Wimbledons, but still being in the position to win a Slam should always count for something. Slam winning level is Slam winning level.

 

[NAS]

Djokovic probably vultured two Wimbledons, but still being in the position to win a Slam should always count for something. Slam winning level is Slam winning level.

Only one at best, don't forget he missed 2020 so that cancel out two easy one

 

[Barton]

Only one at best, don't forget he missed 2020 so that cancel out two easy one

Yeah, 2020 cancellation is not talked about enough. Djokovic kind of got robbed there since he was the absolute favorite to win it.

 

[NAS]

Yes, fair enough. That still puts him 3 behind Fed and Pete's 7.

Dude he won 2019 so there is your fifth and he missed 2020 .
So at best you are Looking one Inflated Wimbledon.

It is not like Fed 2007,06 draw was really tough before final.
Only Ancic was there in these two Wimbledon before final and Ancic didn't even play good like Shapo or Sinner in 2021,2022
This is what I don't like, you want to cross easy draw slam for Novak I AM ok with this but you are giving 2003,06,07 to Fed ( only one tougher opponent , that was Roddick in 2003 semi)

 

[NAS]

Yeah, 2020 cancellation is not talked about enough. Djokovic kind of got robbed there since he was the absolute favorite to win it.

This happens always with some of the fedal fans discussion lol.
Mac is better than Novak in us open because he defended his slam, ok even if I don't agree with your Point but I understand.
But suddenly Agassi is better than Rafter or Edberg( both defended us open) at us open because Agassi whole carrer in us open is counted with extra finals.

 

[NAS]

For me Fed= Sampras> Novak on present data.
Don't have option for that so gobara with Fed Sampras Novak one

 

[mike danny]

Dude he won 2019 so there is your fifth and he missed 2020 .
So at best you are Looking one Inflated Wimbledon.

2019 wasn't close to prime.

 

[Angrybirdstar]

thinking something like

Federer > Sampras/Kramer > Laver/Djokovic/Borg > Newcombe/McEnroe/Sedgman/Becker > Edberg/Nadal/Gonzalez/Ashe/Connors/Hoad > Rosewall/Murray/Emerson/Alcaraz/Smith

IMO if you do an age-by-age comparison I think there aren't too many seasons where Djokovic legit outperformed Fed at Wimbledon.

2001 vs. 2007 (age 20): Fed a bit better because of the Sampras match and because Djokovic in 2007 was injured.
2002 vs. 2008 (21): About equal. Neither was good.
2003 vs. 2009 (22): Fed easily.
2004 vs. 2010 (23): Again, Fed easily.
2005 vs. 2011 (24): Fed by a decent margin.
2006 vs. 2012 (25): Fed easily.
2007 vs. 2013 (26): Fed easily.
2008 vs. 2014 (27): Fed slightly. I can understand giving this to Djokovic.
2009 vs. 2015 (28): Djokovic slightly. I can understand giving this to Fed.
2010 vs. 2016 (29): Fed.
2011 vs. 2017 (30): Fed.
2012 vs. 2018 (31): Fed.
2013 vs. 2019 (32): Djokovic easily.
2014 vs. 2020 (33): N/A but I have a hard time seeing how Fed wouldn't win this considering Novak's form in surrounding years.
2015 vs. 2021 (34): Fed. Djokovic wasn't spectacular in this one IMO.
2016 vs. 2022 (35): Djokovic due to Fed's injury.
2017 vs. 2023 (36): Fed by a decent margin.
2018 vs. 2024 (37): Djokovic slightly, again due to Fed's injury.
2019 vs. 2025 (38): ???

After age 30, Djokovic gets more competitive with Fed, owing to his extraordinary longevity. But age for age, I think Fed clearly performed greater across their careers. It's not like an insane blowout or anything but it's still a pretty comfortable advantage.

main quibbles are 29 (think it should be Fed slightly + neither good); 31 (think it should be Djokovic slightly); 34 (should be Fed easily); and some general wording things ("due to injury" and "not spectacular" not too accurate as descriptions)

This is the other par of that graph:

Picture TMF posted was speed after the bounce.

I mean your point still stands I guess but really, I think it's very obvious grass was slowed down in those years. There was a concentrated effort from Wimbledon for years to do so.

Fed came in on every 1st serve in 2003, there's no way in hell he would have been able to do that against nearly anybody in the draw in 2008 (not just Nadal), conditions just weren't the same anymore.

how much (if at all) do you think clay conditions changed overall (whether courts, balls, etc.)? TA's surface speed metric suggests that Wimbly '08 and RG '08 were as disparate in speeds as Wimbly '03 and RG '03, whereas in the intervening years Wimbly was relatively a bit faster

I don't see any 30's Djokovic beating Stan that day, especially when a better Djokovic lost to that Stan in only four sets later in the tournament

23.9% RPW (12% 1st RPW) on clay is a pretty undignified loss though. no world where same age ('21) Djokovic who beat Nadal (however low level/injured) doesn't at least get a set, and i think there's a pretty good case that RG '21 Djokovic's baselining level (and maybe some of RG '23/Olympics '24, where he really was outright aggressive in a way that would change the matchup) should give him the edge over RG '15 Wawrinka