The Big 3 - who was better age for age?

Druss

Druss

Hall of Fame
This is a comparison of level of play between the Big 3 age for age.

18/19y: 1) 2005 Nadal 2) 2006 Djokovic 3) 2000 Federer - Nadal alongside Borg and Becker, one of the top 3 teenage prodigies of the Open Era. He's miles ahead.

19/20y: 1) 2006 Nadal 2) 2007 Djokovic 3) 2001 Federer - Nadal better than Djoko on clay and grass, Djoko better on HC. Fed a late bloomer, still somewhat behind.

20/21y: 1) 2007 Nadal 2) 2008 Djokovic 3) 2002 Federer - Nadal edges Djoker thanks to his prowess on grass. Fed still trails a fair bit.

21/22y: 1) 2008 Nadal 2) 2003 Federer 3) 2009 Djokovic - Nadal peaking on all 3 surfaces clearly in front. Federer enters prime.

22/23y: 1) 2004 Federer 2) 2009 Nadal 3) 2010 Djokovic - Federer clearly ahead here, Djokovic clearly third.

23/24y: 1) 2011 Djokovic 2) 2005 Federer 3) 2010 Nadal - This was not an easy one and I'm sure it will spark controversy! All 3 very similar level, certainly debatable.

24/25y: 1) 2006 Federer 2) 2012 Djokovic 3) 2011 Nadal - FedExpress in the peak of his powers, not debatable. Djoker edges Nadal for second.

25/26y: 1) 2007 Federer 2) 2013 Djokovic 3) 2012 Nadal - Federer clearly ahead, Nadal clearly third.

26/27y: 1) 2013 Nadal 2) 2014 Djokovic 3) 2008 Federer - Not much separating them, but pretty straightforward nonetheless.

27/28y: 1) 2015 Djokovic 2) 2009 Federer 3) 2014 Nadal - Only a 'blind' Fedfan would argue this one. Nadal a distant third.

28/29y: 1) 2016 Djokovic 2) 2010 Federer 3) 2015 Nadal - Nadal in one of his worst spells, Fed in a slump, Djoker takes this, not debatable.

29/30y: 1) 2011 Federer 2) 2016 Nadal 3) 2017 Djokovic - Weird one, none of the Big 3 wins a major. Fed's sheer consistency and deep runs definitely takes this.

30/31y: 1) 2012 Federer 2) 2018 Djokovic 3) 2017 Nadal - The toughest one yet! Extremely close between all 3 and definitely debatable.

Do you agree or disagree? Discuss.
 
Druss said:
This is a comparison of level of play between the Big 3 age for age.

18/19y: 1) 2005 Nadal 2) 2006 Djokovic 3) 2000 Federer - Nadal alongside Borg and Becker, one of the top 3 teenage prodigies of the Open Era. He's miles ahead.

19/20y: 1) 2006 Nadal 2) 2007 Djokovic 3) 2001 Federer - Nadal better than Djoko on clay and grass, Djoko better on HC. Fed a late bloomer, still somewhat behind.

20/21y: 1) 2007 Nadal 2) 2008 Djokovic 3) 2002 Federer - Nadal edges Djoker thanks to his prowess on grass. Fed still trails a fair bit.

21/22y: 1) 2008 Nadal 2) 2003 Federer 3) 2009 Djokovic - Nadal peaking on all 3 surfaces clearly in front. Federer enters prime.

22/23y: 1) 2004 Federer 2) 2009 Nadal 3) 2010 Djokovic - Federer clearly ahead here, Djokovic clearly third.

23/24y: 1) 2011 Djokovic 2) 2005 Federer 3) 2010 Nadal - This was not an easy one and I'm sure it will spark controversy! All 3 very similar level, certainly debatable.

24/25y: 1) 2006 Federer 2) 2012 Djokovic 3) 2011 Nadal - FedExpress in the peak of his powers, not debatable. Djoker edges Nadal for second.

25/26y: 1) 2007 Federer 2) 2013 Djokovic 3) 2012 Nadal - Federer clearly ahead, Nadal clearly third.

26/27y: 1) 2013 Nadal 2) 2014 Djokovic 3) 2008 Federer - Not much separating them, but pretty straightforward nonetheless.

27/28y: 1) 2015 Djokovic 2) 2009 Federer 3) 2014 Nadal - Only a 'blind' Fedfan would argue this one. Nadal a distant third.

28/29y: 1) 2016 Djokovic 2) 2010 Federer 3) 2015 Nadal - Nadal in one of his worst spells, Fed in a slump, Djoker takes this, not debatable.

29/30y: 1) 2011 Federer 2) 2016 Nadal 3) 2017 Djokovic - Weird one, none of the Big 3 wins a major. Fed's sheer consistency and deep runs definitely takes this.

30/31y: 1) 2012 Federer 2) 2018 Djokovic 3) 2017 Nadal - The toughest one yet! Extremely close between all 3 and definitely debatable.

Do you agree or disagree? Discuss.
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Mury wins the 28/29 year
 
Red Rick said:
Mury wins the 28/29 year
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Well at the time 2016 was the highest level we'd ever witnessed, in particular the 2016 World Tour Finals. Up to that point I hadn't seen either Murray or Djokovic play any better.

But the game has moved on quite a bit since 2016. I think the obvious answer is Djokovic in 2018.

But, the Big 3 haven't shown the best level ever. That goes to Zverev.
 
My opinion (level of play):

19: Nadal
20: Djokovic
21: Djokovic/Nadal
22: Nadal
23: Federer
24: Djokovic
25-26: Djokovic/Federer
25-26: Djokovic/Federer
27: Nadal
28: Djokovic
29: Federer
30: Federer
31: Djokovic/Nadal
 
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29 yo Murray > 29 yo Big3
30 yo Wawrinka > 30 yo Big3

tenor.gif
 
Lew said:
For all other ages you put the one who won most majors first, so 2012 Federer should be no.3.
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This is not about who won more slams, it's looking at level of play throughout the whole year. Also in terms of competition, 2012 was one of the toughest years, if not the toughest since the 80s.

AO 12 fed > AO 18 Djoko
RG 12 fed ~ RG 18 djoko
Wim 12 fed > Wim 18 Djoko
USO 12 fed < USO 18 djoko

with the final :
YEC 12 fed > YEC 18 djoko
otherwise would be the other way around.

Among the common masters:
IW 12 fed > IW 18 djoko
Miami 12 fed > miami 18 djoko
Madrid 12 fed > Madrid 12 djoko
Rome 12 fed ~ Rome 18 djoko
Cincy 12 fed > Cincy 18 djoko
Shanghai 12 fed < Shanghai 18 djoko.
 
Druss said:
This is not about who won more slams, it's looking at level of play throughout the whole year. Also in terms of competition, 2012 was one of the toughest years, if not the toughest since the 80s.

AO 12 fed > AO 18 Djoko
RG 12 fed ~ RG 18 djoko
Wim 12 fed > Wim 18 Djoko
USO 12 fed < USO 18 djoko

with the final :
YEC 12 fed > YEC 18 djoko
otherwise would be the other way around.

Among the common masters:
IW 12 fed > IW 18 djoko
Miami 12 fed > miami 18 djoko
Madrid 12 fed > Madrid 12 djoko
Rome 12 fed ~ Rome 18 djoko
Cincy 12 fed > Cincy 18 djoko
Shanghai 12 fed < Shanghai 18 djoko.
Click to expand...

And you have nothing to say about competition of other years, right? :-D
 
tennis_pro said:
How did you come up with this conclusion?

Nadal was 23 from the 2009 FO to the 2010 FO. He did nothing outside of the 2010 clay season and that excludes the FO.
Federer was 23 from 2004 Cincinnati till 2005 Cincinnati, he won 2 Slams, the WTF and several MS.
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You're right, I corrected it.
 
Lew said:
You're right, I corrected it.
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And how is 25 tied for Federer, Nadal and Djokovic? Federer was at his absolute peak in 2006/2007, Djokovic did a lot worse in 2012/2013 as did Nadal in 2011/2012. Federer won 3 Slams for starters when he was 25. Djokovic won 1 and same with Nadal. Rethink the whole list, I took the first 2 years and you are wrong in both.
 
tennis_pro said:
And how is 25 tied for Federer, Nadal and Djokovic? Federer was at his absolute peak in 2006/2007, Djokovic did a lot worse in 2012/2013 as did Nadal in 2011/2012. Federer won 3 Slams for starters when he was 25. Djokovic won 1 and same with Nadal. Rethink the whole list, I took the first 2 years and you are wrong in both.
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Competition in that case.
 
Druss said:
2010 Nadal over 2005 Federer? Do you realise 2005 is always featured ahead of 2010 as most impressive years in OE? In 2005, Fed lost to only 2 players. How many players did Nadal lose to in 2010?
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That's 2006, but your point stands. He had the second best winning percentage of open era in 2005.

While HCGODDAL was losing to Baghdatis,Ljub,Roddick,lopez,Garcia lopez, Jurgen freaking Melzer. Half of these losses were around the time he won 3 slams in a row.
@Nadal_Django defend this.
 
Lew said:
25-26: Djokovic/Federer
25-26: Djokovic/Federer
27: Nadal
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27:
1) Federer from 2008 Canada to 2009 Canada. Won the US Open, FO, Wimbledon and lost the AO final in 5 sets. He was basically a set away from the NCYGS.
2) Djokovic from 2014 May to 2015 May, it began to touch his peak but most in 2014.
3) Nadal from 2013 FO to 2014 FO, won 2 Slams and a bunch of MS.

The competition was more impressive in 2008/2009 than in 2013/2015.
 
tennis_pro said:
27:
1) Federer from 2008 Canada to 2009 Canada. Won the US Open, FO, Wimbledon and lost the AO final in 5 sets. He was basically a set away from the NCYGS.
2) Djokovic from 2014 May to 2015 May, it began to touch his peak but most in 2014.
3) Nadal from 2013 FO to 2014 FO, won 2 Slams and a bunch of MS.

The competition was more impressive in 2008/2009 than in 2013/2015.
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I take Nadal who could beat 2013 Djokovic twice in slams over Federer beating Soderling, Roddick, Murray.
 
tennis_pro said:
While also losing to Darcis in straight sets at Wimbledon.
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vs Big4:

27yo Nadal 7-4
27yo Federer 3-7

I predict Djokovic/Nadal will not be as good as Federer at 33/37, if that makes you happy.
 
Lew said:
vs Big4:

27yo Nadal 7-4
27yo Federer 3-7

I predict Djokovic/Nadal will not be as good as Federer at 33/37, if that makes you happy.
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You can't go with results and then switch to h2h whenever it suits your agenda. Federer was a set away from 4 Slams in a row at the age of 27. Nadal lost in the first round of Wimbledon to Darcis.
 
tennis_pro said:
You can't go with results and then switch to h2h whenever it suits your agenda. Federer was a set away from 4 Slams in a row at the age of 27. Nadal lost in the first round of Wimbledon to Darcis.
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I didn't go with results alone, otherwise I wouldn't put middle 25-26 Djokovic on the same level as 25-26yo Federer.
 
Lew said:
LOL I didn't see it.

Objective as always.
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Well actually it's quite reasonnable.
Nadal 2010 is 71–10 (87.7%) with 7 titles (3 slams, 3 M1000, 1 500), a QF at AO, a final at the masters
Nadal was unstoppable on clay that year but was certainly beatable elsewhere, losing to Garcia Lopez, Melzer, Baghdatis. Also, his Wimbledon was messy, his USO quite miraculous against gassed opponents.

Federer 2005 is 81–4 (95.29%) (second best in the open era) with 11 titles (2 slams, 4 M1000, 2 500 and 3 250), 2 SF at slams, a final at the masters
I think Federer was playing at a higher level in 2005 than Nadal in 2010, he lost only 4 times and 3 of those were incredibly close. The loss to Gasquet is the only real hiccup in the season, the rest was played at probably his best level ever. If he had won the AO, it would probably be a contender for best season of the open era. It all depends on how high you value 1 more slam in a multi slam season.

The 2011 Djokovic season is one of the best ever, 70–6 (92.1%) with 10 titles (3 slams, 5 M1000, 1 500, 1 250), he routinely beat all his opponents until his injury that unfortunately makes his season ending look bad (6W and 4L after USO!) It's extremely close between Federer and Djokovic here, but i'd put Djokovic on top because both faced the same situation here, a HC slam SF with a great opponent and an almost coinflip situation where you can win or lose and Djokovic won and won the slam while Federer lost his match.
So i agree with Djokovic 2011> Federer 2005>Nadal 2010
 
tennis_pro said:
Yes and when competition favors Djokovic/Nadal you go with them but if results favor them you still go with Djokovic/Nadal.
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When Federer had tough opponents he didn't beat them.

Most consecutive wins in Slams over 6+ slam finalists:

Federer 2
Nadal 6
Djokovic 11 (active)
 
Jonas78 said:
Well he said level of play. Federer 2012 would highly likely win at least AO & W in 2018.
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Have you any objective criteria to determine competition?

I have it, you know, and the comparison wouldn't stop to 2012 vs 2018.
 
tennis_pro said:
6+ slam finalists lmao. What about 5+ slam finalists? What about players ranked higher than 13? What about from April to August?

This is the big picture here, baby:
2256156.jpg
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6+ slam finalists or 11+ slam finalists, if you want.

It means Federer never beat ATGs consistently as Djokovic and Nadal. Nowhere near.
 
Lew said:
When Federer had tough opponents he didn't beat them.

Most consecutive wins in Slams over Big4:

Federer 2
Nadal 6
Djokovic 11 (active)
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I will never get this logic.

So because Federer won a lot of slams in his prime 2004-2012 (with some slumps), beating him later career is just as big? By this logic you make level of play totally irrelevant. And even more Nadal, who had his worst period ever in 2014-2016.
 
Jonas78 said:
I will never get this logic.

So because Federer won a lot of slams in his prime 2004-2012 (with some slumps), beating him later career is just as big? By this logic you make level of play totally irrelevant. And even more Nadal, who had his worst period ever in 2014-2016.
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Federer couldn't get 3 consecutive wins against 35yo Agassi and 19yo Big4.
 
Lew said:
Have you any objective criteria to determine competition?

I have it, you know, and the comparison wouldn't stop to 2012 vs 2018.
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What?

Well he won AO in 2018, so its fair to say he would win it In his 2012 body??

And he won W in 2012 with far tougher competition than 2018.

I dont see how it could be more objective, unless you think 2018-Djoko > 2012-Djoko, or 2018-Fed > 2012-Fed.
 
As for their 30/31 yo season, I'd Put Nadal 1st, Federer 2nd and Djokovic 3rd.
Nadal: 67–11 (85.9%) 6 titles (2 slams, 2 M1000, 2 500) + 1 slam final, 1 M1000 final. His USO run was even more miraculous than 2010 and the rest of his US summer tour was bad but apart from this, great season and great level all year round, on every surface which is not always the case with him. His Wimbledon loss to Muller, an excellent serve and volley player who can be dangerous wasn't even that bad.
Federer: 71–12 (85.54%) 6 titles with "only" 1 slam, 3 M1000, 2 500. He didn't finish this season ATP#1 though, but the fight was close and he was probably the better player until USO when he took a bad loss to Berdych. But before that, he played really well, with his last good season on clay, great level on grass and hard, he somehow lost the plot against Nadal in their AO SF, as often between the 2 but it was a very even match. End of the season was still played at a good level, including a masters final, one of the best i've seen since it's bo3.
Djokovic:53–12 (81.54%), 4 Titles (2 slams, 2 M1000) also masters final and 1 M1000 final, now this is a though one because until Wimbledon, Djokovic played more or less like sh*t, but since then it's been very, very good for him. Inconsistency costs him some points in my eyes in this. Also losing to 2 newcomers at the end of the season, it's probably no longer the ultimate warrior we're seeing in front of us.

Edit; on a second thought, i come to think it's possible to make a case for everyone of them. Indeed a though one! It's pretty much equal really.
 
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Lew said:
While 34 yo Federer being great on grass and hardcourt means nothing because 34.
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Well thats where we disagree...

I think its quite natural that a 28y old peak-GOAT gets the better of a 34y old. Throw in the worst version of Nadal ever and Im not surprised.

Dont get me wrong, Djoko was amazing in 2015, but you can't use random Big4 wins to prove this was any better than what Fed did in his peak.
 
Jonas78 said:
Well thats where we disagree...

I think its quite natural that a 28y old peak-GOAT gets the better of a 34y old. Throw in the worst version of Nadal ever and Im not surprised.

Dont get me wrong, Djoko was amazing in 2015, but you can't use random Big4 wins to prove this was any better than what Fed did in his peak.
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Is it natural a 24-26 yo beats a 19-21 yo too?
 
This is a great thread, Druss. I will only list the instances where I disagree with yours. But your list is great. And I agree with nearly all of it, except for 2 ages.

2010 Nadal over 2005 Fed over 2011 Djokovic. This contest is quite close. 2005 Fed was leagues better than 2011 Fed. And we know how much 2011 Fed pushed 2011 Djoker. Also, 81-4 is insane. Had Fed not sprained his ankle, he likely sets the record for the best winning pct in history. However, Nadal’s level in 2010 was incredible. This was pretty much tthe last year that Nadal had his ridiculous speed. But he had something that year that he never had before and hasn’t had sinc3e. Nadal was regularly crushing serves up to 135 mph later that year. Nadal was unplayable at the USO. When watching the USO final vsDjokovic , the announcers mentioned that Nadal had averaged 8 mph more on his serves than in previous years.

2017 Nadal over 2018 Djoker over 2012 Fed. Djoker’s level was three highest of the 3. But Nadal was far more consistent all year. Federer is a distant 3rd here. I have said before that Djoker now is serving like a maniac. I believe that he is playing at his best level ever. I got some angry blowback by a few Djoker fans for saying that. But it actually works to Djoker’s advantage. This Djoker doesn’t lose 3 of 4 slams to 2014-2016 Stan. And this Djoker would more dominant at majors against 2011-2012 FED than 2011-2012 Djoker was.
 
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