The Big 3 - who was better age for age?

mike danny said:
On clay he was as tough as ever. Let's see 2011 Djokovic battle that guy in several BO5 clay finals, because even the masters had BO5 finals back then.

2005 Nadal IMO was tougher to put away on clay than 2011 Nadal on grass and HC.

Note: 2011 Nadal was still the better player, especially off clay, but 2005 Nadal would have been hell to deal with on clay even for 2011 Djokovic.
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Nadal in 2011 was better than anyone else except one. I doubt Nadal in 05 would have done anything more against Djokovic in 2011.
 
King No1e said:
Nadal in 2011 was better than anyone else except one. I doubt Nadal in 05 would have done anything more against Djokovic in 2011.
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On clay he would have. His defense an his speed alone would have frustrated Djokovic. Nadal in 2011 was still very fast, but not as fast as he was in 2005.
 
Raining hopes said:
@Lew will never reply with any ounce of effort When someone logically destroys his arguments. He never really responds and continues to post in the same thread however.
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I know he won't answer, i didn't expect something interesting from him. It's still necessary to respond to trolls, not especially for the trolls themselves, but for the people who might believe them. He was just my starting point in the thread anyway.
 
mike danny said:
No, I won't put 2017 Rafa ahead of 2012 Fed. His level was high, but not as high as 2012 Fed's. Rafa's USO win was indeed miraculous and everyone here knows why. The main reason he won a second slam that year.

Heck, put 2012 Fed in 2017 and he would have been the one to end the year as no.1, not Rafa.
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Hmmm, i know it's a tough one really. What you suggest is that competition was better in 2012 than in 2017 and it certainly was. Each of the big 4 won a slam, Ferrer, Berdych were probably having their best years on the tour (7 titles including a M1000 for Ferrer, Berdych gets his best WL ratio that year), Del Potro was coming back...
It's not an easy one i agree. It's just based on the feeling that at the time of USO, the YE#1 was up to grabs for both of them and Federer didn't catch it in 2012 (and once again in 2014 and 2017, but that's another story) while Nadal did.
All those comparisons are subjective anyway but i'm never a fan of weak/strong era arguments in general. Also maybe 2012 Federer wouldn't have done so well in 2017 because he would have played Nadal like he did in 2012, which wasn't the right way.
They're almost equal for me there.
 
Druss said:
This is a comparison of level of play between the Big 3 age for age.

18/19y: 1) 2005 Nadal 2) 2006 Djokovic 3) 2000 Federer - Nadal alongside Borg and Becker, one of the top 3 teenage prodigies of the Open Era. He's miles ahead.

19/20y: 1) 2006 Nadal 2) 2007 Djokovic 3) 2001 Federer - Nadal better than Djoko on clay and grass, Djoko better on HC. Fed a late bloomer, still somewhat behind.

20/21y: 1) 2007 Nadal 2) 2008 Djokovic 3) 2002 Federer - Nadal edges Djoker thanks to his prowess on grass. Fed still trails a fair bit.

21/22y: 1) 2008 Nadal 2) 2003 Federer 3) 2009 Djokovic - Nadal peaking on all 3 surfaces clearly in front. Federer enters prime.

22/23y: 1) 2004 Federer 2) 2009 Nadal 3) 2010 Djokovic - Federer clearly ahead here, Djokovic clearly third.

23/24y: 1) 2011 Djokovic 2) 2005 Federer 3) 2010 Nadal - This was not an easy one and I'm sure it will spark controversy! All 3 very similar level, certainly debatable.

24/25y: 1) 2006 Federer 2) 2012 Djokovic 3) 2011 Nadal - FedExpress in the peak of his powers, not debatable. Djoker edges Nadal for second.

25/26y: 1) 2007 Federer 2) 2013 Djokovic 3) 2012 Nadal - Federer clearly ahead, Nadal clearly third.

26/27y: 1) 2013 Nadal 2) 2014 Djokovic 3) 2008 Federer - Not much separating them, but pretty straightforward nonetheless.

27/28y: 1) 2015 Djokovic 2) 2009 Federer 3) 2014 Nadal - Only a 'blind' Fedfan would argue this one. Nadal a distant third.

28/29y: 1) 2016 Djokovic 2) 2010 Federer 3) 2015 Nadal - Nadal in one of his worst spells, Fed in a slump, Djoker takes this, not debatable.

29/30y: 1) 2011 Federer 2) 2016 Nadal 3) 2017 Djokovic - Weird one, none of the Big 3 wins a major. Fed's sheer consistency and deep runs definitely takes this.

30/31y: 1) 2012 Federer 2) 2018 Djokovic 3) 2017 Nadal - The toughest one yet! Extremely close between all 3 and definitely debatable.

Do you agree or disagree? Discuss.
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Federer, I didn’t read your post but it most definitely has to be him.
 
chut said:
Hmmm, i know it's a tough one really. What you suggest is that competition was better in 2012 than in 2017 and it certainly was. Each of the big 4 won a slam, Ferrer, Berdych were probably having their best years on the tour (7 titles including a M1000 for Ferrer, Berdych gets his best WL ratio that year), Del Potro was coming back...
It's not an easy one i agree. It's just based on the feeling that at the time of USO, the YE#1 was up to grabs for both of them and Federer didn't catch it in 2012 (and once again in 2014 and 2017, but that's another story) while Nadal did.
All those comparisons are subjective anyway but i'm never a fan of weak/strong era arguments in general. Also maybe 2012 Federer wouldn't have done so well in 2017 because he would have played Nadal like he did in 2012, which wasn't the right way.
They're almost equal for me there.
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2017 Nadal would still be slower than 2012 Nadal, so 2012 Fed would still find it easier to handle him.
 
Lew said:
When Federer had tough opponents he didn't beat them.

Most consecutive wins in Slams over 6+ slam finalists:

Federer 2
Nadal 6
Djokovic 11 (active)
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Now there's a lol worthy stat if I ever saw one. How many of those are against Muzz? And should we just ignore he did nothing for 2 years? Cause losing to nobodies is better than losing to fellow greats.
 
Druss said:
This is a comparison of level of play between the Big 3 age for age.

18/19y: 1) 2005 Nadal 2) 2006 Djokovic 3) 2000 Federer - Nadal alongside Borg and Becker, one of the top 3 teenage prodigies of the Open Era. He's miles ahead.

19/20y: 1) 2006 Nadal 2) 2007 Djokovic 3) 2001 Federer - Nadal better than Djoko on clay and grass, Djoko better on HC. Fed a late bloomer, still somewhat behind.

20/21y: 1) 2007 Nadal 2) 2008 Djokovic 3) 2002 Federer - Nadal edges Djoker thanks to his prowess on grass. Fed still trails a fair bit.

21/22y: 1) 2008 Nadal 2) 2003 Federer 3) 2009 Djokovic - Nadal peaking on all 3 surfaces clearly in front. Federer enters prime.

22/23y: 1) 2004 Federer 2) 2009 Nadal 3) 2010 Djokovic - Federer clearly ahead here, Djokovic clearly third.

23/24y: 1) 2011 Djokovic 2) 2005 Federer 3) 2010 Nadal - This was not an easy one and I'm sure it will spark controversy! All 3 very similar level, certainly debatable.

24/25y: 1) 2006 Federer 2) 2012 Djokovic 3) 2011 Nadal - FedExpress in the peak of his powers, not debatable. Djoker edges Nadal for second.

25/26y: 1) 2007 Federer 2) 2013 Djokovic 3) 2012 Nadal - Federer clearly ahead, Nadal clearly third.

26/27y: 1) 2013 Nadal 2) 2014 Djokovic 3) 2008 Federer - Not much separating them, but pretty straightforward nonetheless.

27/28y: 1) 2015 Djokovic 2) 2009 Federer 3) 2014 Nadal - Only a 'blind' Fedfan would argue this one. Nadal a distant third.

28/29y: 1) 2016 Djokovic 2) 2010 Federer 3) 2015 Nadal - Nadal in one of his worst spells, Fed in a slump, Djoker takes this, not debatable.

29/30y: 1) 2011 Federer 2) 2016 Nadal 3) 2017 Djokovic - Weird one, none of the Big 3 wins a major. Fed's sheer consistency and deep runs definitely takes this.

30/31y: 1) 2012 Federer 2) 2018 Djokovic 3) 2017 Nadal - The toughest one yet! Extremely close between all 3 and definitely debatable.

Do you agree or disagree? Discuss.
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I made a similar thread last year that I think is clearer

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...eline-comparison-between-big-3-by-age.605846/
 
chut said:
As for their 30/31 yo season, I'd Put Nadal 1st, Federer 2nd and Djokovic 3rd.
Nadal: 67–11 (85.9%) 6 titles (2 slams, 2 M1000, 2 500) + 1 slam final, 1 M1000 final. His USO run was even more miraculous than 2010 and the rest of his US summer tour was bad but apart from this, great season and great level all year round, on every surface which is not always the case with him. His Wimbledon loss to Muller, an excellent serve and volley player who can be dangerous wasn't even that bad.
Federer: 71–12 (85.54%) 6 titles with "only" 1 slam, 3 M1000, 2 500. He didn't finish this season ATP#1 though, but the fight was close and he was probably the better player until USO when he took a bad loss to Berdych. But before that, he played really well, with his last good season on clay, great level on grass and hard, he somehow lost the plot against Nadal in their AO SF, as often between the 2 but it was a very even match. End of the season was still played at a good level, including a masters final, one of the best i've seen since it's bo3.
Djokovic:53–12 (81.54%), 4 Titles (2 slams, 2 M1000) also masters final and 1 M1000 final, now this is a though one because until Wimbledon, Djokovic played more or less like sh*t, but since then it's been very, very good for him. Inconsistency costs him some points in my eyes in this. Also losing to 2 newcomers at the end of the season, it's probably no longer the ultimate warrior we're seeing in front of us.

Edit; on a second thought, i come to think it's possible to make a case for everyone of them. Indeed a though one! It's pretty much equal really.
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You raise some very good points. The way I see it, in AO 2012 both Fed and Nadal were at a higher lever than their 2017 selves. So I conclude, AO 2012 Fed > 2017 Nadal. RG 2017 Nadal > 2012 Fed. Wimby 2012 Fed >>> 2017 Nadal. Everywhere else on clay 2017 Nadal wins. On HC (like IW, Cincy etc) I go with Fed, except USO it’s 50/50. Hence why overall I gave it to 2012 Fed.
 
mike danny said:
Has Nadal dominated in the last decade? Because he has been second to Djoker overall and 3rd to Fed and Novak off clay.
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In your dreams. Apart from everything, Nadal is the only one of the Big 4 who hasn't been outside the top 10 for a decade. Djokovic has been outside the top 20.
 
1999 - 2008

13 : Federer
5 : Agassi, Nadal
3 : Sampras
2 : Kuerten, Hewitt, Safin
1 : Kafelnikov, Ivanisevic, Johansson, Costa, Ferrero, Roddick, Gaudio, Djokovic

---------------------------------

2009 - 2018

13 : Djokovic
12 : Nadal
7 : Federer
3 : Murray, Wawrinka
1 : Del Potro, Cilic
 
mike danny said:
Since 2009 (since that is when the last decade begins):
No. of slams: Djoker: 13, Rafa: 12.
No. of slams off clay: Djoker: 12, Fed: 6, Rafa: 5.
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Rafa has missed 5 slams and retired from quite a few with injury in the last 10 years. Of course, Djoko only won one slam until 2011.

What's this off clay? Anyway, Rafa has missed or retired injured from, at least, a total of 10 slams off clay in the last 10 years.
 
clayqueen said:
Rafa has missed 5 slams and retired from quite a few with injury in the last 10 years. Of course, Djoko only won one slam until 2011.

What's this off clay? Anyway, Rafa has missed or retired injured from, at least, a total of 10 slams off clay in the last 10 years.
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Doesn't change what I said.
 
Level of play can’t be measured. Purely subjective.

Outcomes can be measured. Completely objective.

After 27 both Nole and Nadal have generally won more than Fed.

Nole clearly ahead of both Nadal and Fed at age 28 and 29

Fed ahead at age 30 (2011) but that’s because those were crappy years for Nadal (2016) and Nole (2017)

Nadal and Nole both ahead of Fed at age 31. Nadal probably has the best year at that age.

Nadal already ahead of Fed at age 32. We will have to see what Nole does in 2019.

Results are very clear. Both Nole and Nadal have consistently been winning more post 27 than Fed. We don’t know if that will continue.

Talk of weak vs strong eras is only useless fun. No one here has a method to measure era strength.
 
GabeT said:
Level of play can’t be measured. Purely subjective.

Outcomes can be measured. Completely objective.

After 27 both Nole and Nadal have generally won more than Fed.

Nole clearly ahead of both Nadal and Fed at age 28 and 29

Fed ahead at age 30 (2011) but that’s because those were crappy years for Nadal (2016) and Nole (2017)

Nadal and Nole both ahead of Fed at age 31. Nadal probably has the best year at that age.

Nadal already ahead of Fed at age 32. We will have to see what Nole does in 2019.

Results are very clear. Both Nole and Nadal have consistently been winning more post 27 than Fed. We don’t know if that will continue.

Talk of weak vs strong eras is only useless fun. No one here has a method to measure era strength.
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No, you just conveniently choose to disregard competition, which is a pretty big factor when a player is 30+, just to suggest that Nadal and Novak are better players in their 30's than Fed.
 
mike danny said:
No, you just conveniently choose to disregard competition, which is a pretty big factor when a player is 30+, just to suggest that Nadal and Novak are better players in their 30's than Fed.
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Never said they are better. Simply pointed out they won more. Although we will have to see how Nole and Nadal do at 35/36 since Fed won 3 slams at that age
 
30/31:
Fed: 1 slam, 3 masters
Djoker: 2 slams, 3 masters, YE # 1
Rafa: 2 slams, 3 masters

It is not really debatable, Djoker's late season run clinching the YE#1 was the thing that sealed the win for him on this one.
 
Comparing players' performance when one player was injured for a significant length of time in that period is ridiculous.
 
titoelcolombiano said:
30/31:
Fed: 1 slam, 3 masters
Djoker: 2 slams, 3 masters, YE # 1
Rafa: 2 slams, 3 masters

It is not really debatable, Djoker's late season run clinching the YE#1 was the thing that sealed the win for him on this one.
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Sure, but OP says level of play, not results. 2012 was far tougher field than 2018, so the question is how 2012-Fed would do In the 2018 field. Given he won W in 2012 is really far out that he shouldnt win it In 2018, unless you think 2018-Djok > 2012-Djok and 2018-Fed > 2012-Fed
 
Jonas78 said:
Sure, but OP says level of play, not results. 2012 was far tougher field than 2018, so the question is how 2012-Fed would do In the 2018 field. Given he won W in 2012 is really far out that he shouldnt win it In 2018, unless you think 2018-Djok > 2012-Djok and 2018-Fed > 2012-Fed
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2018 Djokovic is for sure better than 2012 Djokovic. The second part Djokovic that is.
Put 2018 Djokovic in 2012 and he wins Wimbledon and US Open without any fuss.
 
Jonas78 said:
Sure, i bet 2018-Djoker would win 4 CYGS 2004-2007 too?
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You think 2012 Wimbledon and US Open Djokovic was better than 2018 Djokovic at the same tournaments!? :oops: That's simply ridiculous!
And before you say, yeah, but Federer, no chance in hell Federer was playing at the 2018 Wimbledon SF level at any point in 2012. ;)
 
Jonas78 said:
Yes i think Djoko 2012 was better than 2018. 2012 is probably one of the strongest years sinse 2000 and 2018 one of the the weakest. Sinse FO12 Djok won 3 Masters and the WTF, reached SF at W and F at USO. Of course, If you think peak-Djoko can't lose, then it's hard to discuss.

There is no way Djoko 2018 wins W & USO 2012.
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That's ridiculous thinking.
 
Wins over top-8 in the second half of the season:

2018 Djokovic 14
2012 Federer 5

Anyway it is true 2012 was a greater year than 2018, by the same objective criteria which put 2003-06 very low.
 
Lew said:
Wins over top-8 in the second half of the season:

2018 Djokovic 14
2012 Federer 5

Anyway it is true 2012 was a greater year than 2018, by the same objective criteria which put 2003-06 very low.
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How would 2018 Djoker do In 2012? ;)
 
Jonas78 said:
How would 2018 Djoker do In 2012? ;)
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I think 2018 Djoko had a very high level in the second half of the season, as the 14 wins over top-8 (record) show, so he would be the big favourite in the second half of 2012.

But 2012 Federer was very good in the first half of the season too, losing AO/RG only to Nadal/Djoko, so he would have a shot at all four slams in 2018.

2012 Federer and 2018 Djokovic are quite close actually, I think.
 
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GabeT said:
Level of play can’t be measured. Purely subjective.

Outcomes can be measured. Completely objective.

After 27 both Nole and Nadal have generally won more than Fed.

Nole clearly ahead of both Nadal and Fed at age 28 and 29

Fed ahead at age 30 (2011) but that’s because those were crappy years for Nadal (2016) and Nole (2017)

Nadal and Nole both ahead of Fed at age 31. Nadal probably has the best year at that age.

Nadal already ahead of Fed at age 32. We will have to see what Nole does in 2019.

Results are very clear. Both Nole and Nadal have consistently been winning more post 27 than Fed. We don’t know if that will continue.

Talk of weak vs strong eras is only useless fun. No one here has a method to measure era strength.
Click to expand...

Reading these boards, one would think that considering that Nadal and Djokovic have bested Federer on every corner, they would end up with better careers than him.

It will be pretty amazing, if they don't, no?

8-)
 
Lew said:
I think 2018 Djoko had a very high level in the second half of the season, as the 14 wins over top-8 (record) show, so he would be the big favourite in the second half of 2012.

But 2012 Federer was very good in the first half of the season too, losing AO/RG only to Nadal/Djoko, so he would have a shot at all four slams in 2018.

2012 Federer and 2018 Djokovic are quite close actually, I think.
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Well i think Rogers RG chances was gone by 2012, but Wimbledon was his. Losing to Berdych at USO isnt good enough either.

I think Djokovic will experience the same as Nadal & Federer; you can still keep a very high level at 30+, but you gradually get less consistent. It takes longer to recover and you are more injury-prone. Djoko will win more slams, but i will be surprised If we see the 2011 or late14-16FO consistency again.
 
Tennis_Hands said:
Reading these boards, one would think that considering that Nadal and Djokovic have bested Federer on every corner, they would end up with better careers than him.

It will be pretty amazing, if they don't, no?

:cool:
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They haven’t bested Fed in every corner. Nor will they ever.


But both Nadal and Djokovic have important accomplishments that Fed will never reach

When all is said and done I suspect their careers will be viewed as very close to each other.
 
Jonas78 said:
Well i think Rogers RG chances was gone by 2012, but Wimbledon was his. Losing to Berdych at USO isnt good enough either.

I think Djokovic will experience the same as Nadal & Federer; you can still keep a very high level at 30+, but you gradually get less consistent. It takes longer to recover and you are more injury-prone. Djoko will win more slams, but i will be surprised If we see the 2011 or late14-16FO consistency again.
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Well he already is the best ever outside slams, he now can focus on slams only.
 
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