The boggling thing in the Murray vs Federer H2H

[Zardoz7/12]

The last time Murray and Federer played was in 2015 but something happened between 2013/2014. Murray beat Federer in the semi finals of the Australian Open in 2013 in 5 sets and extended his H2H lead 11-9 however something changed and I believe it has something to do with Federer playing more aggressive thus neutralising Murray's more Counter Punching style. Like it or not Murray pushed Federer in best of 3 set situations, he majored at minors so to speak but until 2012 couldn't get the job done over Federer in a best of 5 situation even at the Australian Open Semi final in 2013 Federer was tired from a 5 setter with Tsonga in the round before.

The point is when a player gets older vs a younger player, the younger player starts to beat the older player more regularly as he isn't in his prime anymore, the exact opposite happened here.

From 2014's Australian Open to Cincinnati 2015 Murray has only won 1 set in 5 matches which was a 7-6 at the Australian Open Quarter Finals. Is my summary correct? That Federer under Edberg was more aggressive?
AO 2014 QF - 6-3 6-4 6-7 6-3
Cincinnati 2014 QF - 6-3 7-5
WTF's RR - 6-0 6-1
Wimbledon 2015 SF - 7-5 7-5 6-4
Cincinnati 2015 SF - 6-4 7-6

Here's a demonstration at how to neutralise a world class counter punching player.

 

[Deleted member 748597]

Federer really peaked at Wimb 15.

 

[ForehandCross]

Their rivalry is weird. I made a thread about how the very things that seemed to work for Murray in bo3 hurt him in bo5 against Federer in slams.

I distinctly remember two points : one in Toronto(Cincy?)2009 and one in AO 2010 where Murray keeps pulling Federer to side on BH corner. In Toronto Federer coughed up extremely weak shot after 3-4 targetted attempts. In AO 2010, he hit an impossibly acute BH winner after the same 3-4 shots.

The big 3 seem to have a different level attached to them in slams.

Their dynamics is overall weird.

 

[Sysyphus]

Several things happened in the interval between those matches.

- Murray had a dip period in 2014 and 2015 after back surgery.
- Fed got more aggressive with his tactics
- Fed switched his racket

all may have contributed.

On a side note, the 2013 AO SF win is one of the most unjustly written-off wins around here. People usually just say "2013erer", in effect retroactively excusing Fed with a back injury that he only suffered months later. He was a bit worn down from Tsonga, but overall a legit win against a 31 y.o. (not ancient) Federer coming off a solid run of form through late 2011 and most of 2012.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Even I'm guilty of some 2013ism. Not to the same extent, of course.

 

[Jonesy]

Peak Fed happened.

 

[abmk]

Several things happened in the interval between those matches.

- Murray had a dip period in 2014 and 2015 after back surgery.
- Fed got more aggressive with his tactics
- Fed switched his racket

all may have contributed.

On a side note, the 2013 AO SF win is one of the most unjustly written-off wins around here. People usually just say "2013erer", in effect retroactively excusing Fed with a back injury that he only suffered months later. He was a bit worn down from Tsonga, but overall a legit win against a 31 y.o. (not ancient) Federer coming off a solid run of form through late 2011 and most of 2012.

Federer was significantly worn down from the Tsonga match.
Back injury excuse isn't valid for that match though.
Murray played well, but that it took him 5 sets to close out that Federer doesn't exactly bode well for him vs a better Federer.

2014 - Murray was a bottom half top 10 player after coming back from surgery. But no such excuses for Wim 15 semi and CIncy 15 semi matches.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Almost all of Murray's wins have been false dawns with Fed being tired from a match before, injured or inconsistent when he was losing to everyone

 

[King No1e]

The last time Murray and Federer played was in 2015 but something happened between 2013/2014. Murray beat Federer in the semi finals of the Australian Open in 2013 in 5 sets and extended his H2H lead 11-9 however something changed and I believe it has something to do with Federer playing more aggressive thus neutralising Murray's more Counter Punching style. Like it or not Murray pushed Federer in best of 3 set situations, he majored at minors so to speak but until 2012 couldn't get the job done over Federer in a best of 5 situation even at the Australian Open Semi final in 2013 Federer was tired from a 5 setter with Tsonga in the round before.

The point is when a player gets older vs a younger player, the younger player starts to beat the older player more regularly as he isn't in his prime anymore, the exact opposite happened here.

From 2014's Australian Open to Cincinnati 2015 Murray has only won 1 set in 5 matches which was a 7-6 at the Australian Open Quarter Finals. Is my summary correct? That Federer under Edberg was more aggressive?
AO 2014 QF - 6-3 6-4 6-7 6-3
Cincinnati 2014 QF - 6-3 7-5
WTF's RR - 6-0 6-1
Wimbledon 2015 SF - 7-5 7-5 6-4
Cincinnati 2015 SF - 6-4 7-6

Here's a demonstration at how to neutralise a world class counter punching player.

The bigger head worked wonders for Fed. I reckon he would've kept sliding post-2013 if he didn't switch.

 

[Deleted member 771911]

WTF '14 was delicious.

 

[PilotPete]

Peak Fed happened.

Followed by peak Isotomin.

 

[D.Nalby12]

Federer turned around rivalry against Nadal, Murray and Berdych since racket switch. But he lost his advantage against Djokovic.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Several things happened in the interval between those matches.

- Murray had a dip period in 2014 and 2015 after back surgery.
- Fed got more aggressive with his tactics
- Fed switched his racket

all may have contributed.

On a side note, the 2013 AO SF win is one of the most unjustly written-off wins around here. People usually just say "2013erer", in effect retroactively excusing Fed with a back injury that he only suffered months later. He was a bit worn down from Tsonga, but overall a legit win against a 31 y.o. (not ancient) Federer coming off a solid run of form through late 2011 and most of 2012.

murrayite propaganda
It was an ok win, like beating Stan in 2016 RG.

 

[Novichok]

.

 

[Sysyphus]

murrayite propaganda
It was an ok win, like beating Stan in 2016 RG.

Which part is incorrect?

 

[BeatlesFan]

On a side note, the 2013 AO SF win is one of the most unjustly written-off wins around here. People usually just say "2013erer", in effect retroactively excusing Fed with a back injury that he only suffered months later.

As a Fed fan, I must admit this is the truth. Fed didn't injure his back until the third round of IW and then reinjured it in the QF's of Hamburg. So his back wasn't an issue against Murray, Andy won that match fair and square.

 

[NatF]

Murray in his best form needed five sets to beat like the 14th best Federer at the AO lol.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Peak Fed - 3-6 h2h vs baby Murray

“old” Fed - 5-0 vs peak Murray

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Murray in his best form needed five sets to beat like the 14th best Federer at the AO lol.

Ask any real racer. Winning is winning, busta.

 

[ForehandRF]

Tbh I can't really understand why Murray gave Fed so many problems, in BO3, in 2008-2010.He was such a "pain" for Fed, like Nalbandian was back in the day.

 

[RS]

Murray in his best form needed five sets to beat like the 14th best Federer at the AO lol.

Is that not to be part expected considering Federer is a much much greater player?

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Tbh I can't really understand why Murray gave Fed so many problems, in BO3, in 2008-2010.

Roger was on vacation during all his defeats. Some of his wins too.

 

[ABCD]

The last time Murray and Federer played was in 2015 but something happened between 2013/2014. Murray beat Federer in the semi finals of the Australian Open in 2013 in 5 sets and extended his H2H lead 11-9 however something changed and I believe it has something to do with Federer playing more aggressive thus neutralising Murray's more Counter Punching style. Like it or not Murray pushed Federer in best of 3 set situations, he majored at minors so to speak but until 2012 couldn't get the job done over Federer in a best of 5 situation even at the Australian Open Semi final in 2013 Federer was tired from a 5 setter with Tsonga in the round before.

The point is when a player gets older vs a younger player, the younger player starts to beat the older player more regularly as he isn't in his prime anymore, the exact opposite happened here.

From 2014's Australian Open to Cincinnati 2015 Murray has only won 1 set in 5 matches which was a 7-6 at the Australian Open Quarter Finals. Is my summary correct? That Federer under Edberg was more aggressive?
AO 2014 QF - 6-3 6-4 6-7 6-3
Cincinnati 2014 QF - 6-3 7-5
WTF's RR - 6-0 6-1
Wimbledon 2015 SF - 7-5 7-5 6-4
Cincinnati 2015 SF - 6-4 7-6

Here's a demonstration at how to neutralise a world class counter punching player.

Federer improved as he stated in August 2015.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Peak Fed - 3-6 h2h vs baby Murray

“old” Fed - 5-0 vs peak Murray

You're all over the place. I thought you didn't like Roger

 

[ForehandRF]

Roger was on vacation during all his defeats. Some of his wins too.

So you are basically saying that Fed was thinking at hiking in the Swiss Alps

 

[Poisoned Slice]

So you are basically saying that Fed was thinking at hiking on the Swiss Alps

Yeah, he was already on the Jet ski in his mind.

 

[ForehandRF]

Yeah, he was already on the Jet ski in his mind.

That's what you can expect from a ballerina on a tennis court

 

[ForehandRF]

Murray in his best form needed five sets to beat like the 14th best Federer at the AO lol.

You are too harsh on Andy here

 

[NatF]

Is that not to be part expected considering Federer is a much much greater player?

It is. But it goes to show how significant Murrays early lead in Bo3 was.

You are too harsh on Andy here

Not saying he couldn't have also have beaten the 13th or maybe 12th best too.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Which part is incorrect?

Mentioning prior form like it was relevant. That ended with the USO Burrdish upset. YEC SF/F was an exception with mid-2012-like level other than chokeitis.

 

[mahesh69a]

Did you know that they never faced each other on clay?

Over long, overlapping careers, I find that weird, like USO never having a Fed-Nadal match.

 

[Legend of Borg]

Murray stans wear that AO match like a badge of honor.

Enjoy it I guess.

 

[Sudacafan]

Federer really peaked at Wimb 15.

With an encore in 2017 from AO, IW and Miami.
Then, it was decline until today.

 

[mike danny]

Several things happened in the interval between those matches.

- Murray had a dip period in 2014 and 2015 after back surgery.
- Fed got more aggressive with his tactics
- Fed switched his racket

all may have contributed.

On a side note, the 2013 AO SF win is one of the most unjustly written-off wins around here. People usually just say "2013erer", in effect retroactively excusing Fed with a back injury that he only suffered months later. He was a bit worn down from Tsonga, but overall a legit win against a 31 y.o. (not ancient) Federer coming off a solid run of form through late 2011 and most of 2012.

True, Fed's 2013 problems started after AO.

But I don't consider that a strong Federer.

 

[mike danny]

Federer turned around rivalry against Nadal, Murray and Berdych since racket switch. But he lost his advantage against Djokovic.

The big reason why that is is that Berdych became Bendych, Murray was never on Federer's level anyway and Nadal lost the thing that made him deadly against Federer, which was his speed.

Djokovic, unlike these guys, was in his peak and prime. Had it been post 2016 Oldovic, I'm sure Fed would have figured him out. He nearly won 2019 Wimb as it was.

 

[mike danny]

Not saying he couldn't have also have beaten the 13th or maybe 12th best too.

Savage AF

Come through and slay

 

[mike danny]

Murray had that back surgery in late 2013 that pretty much ruined his entire 2014 season and Federer feasted on that in 2014.

In 2015 Murray played better, but was pretty lousy against the top guys overall.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

You're all over the place. I thought you didn't like Roger

Federer is a legend and one of the GOATs, bud

 

[Mainad]

Murray had that back surgery in late 2013 that pretty much ruined his entire 2014 season and Federer feasted on that in 2014.

In 2015 Murray played better, but was pretty lousy against the top guys overall.

Still was 1 of only 3 players to beat Djokovic in a big title match that year (along with Stan and Fed).

 

[RS]

It is. But it goes to show how significant Murrays early lead in Bo3 was.

Nadal and Djokovic did the goods in BO3 too as well as slams

 

[BeatlesFan]

Tbh I can't really understand why Murray gave Fed so many problems, in BO3, in 2008-2010.

From 2006 until mid-2009, Andy was an amazing 6-2 against Fed. That's pretty mind-boggling considering 2006 and 2007 Fed was insanely good and lost to practically nobody outside of Rafa on clay. I really think Fed under-estimated Andy at the beginning and just thought he'd beat him with one arm tied behind his back; Roger was very cocky in those heady days. Andy proved him wrong early on.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Federer is a legend and one of the GOATs, bud

Good stuff, we're cooking now. Back to back century.

 

[NatF]

Nadal and Djokovic did the goods in BO3 too as well as slams

They're not Murray.

 

[NatF]

From 2006 until mid-2009, Andy was an amazing 6-2 against Fed. That's pretty mind-boggling considering 2006 and 2007 Fed was insanely good and lost to practically nobody outside of Rafa on clay. I really think Fed under-estimated Andy at the beginning and just thought he'd beat him with one arm tied behind his back; Roger was very cocky in those heady days. Andy proved him wrong early on.

The only met once in those years....

 

[Third Serve]

Not saying he couldn't have also have beaten the 13th or maybe 12th best too.

My guess is that list of superior AO versions of Fed looks like this:

2004
2005
2006
2007
2008 (maybe)
2009
2010
2011 (maybe)
2012 (maybe)
2016 (maybe)
2017
2018 (maybe)

I feel like Murray could beat the versions of Fed that I marked "maybe".

 

[Deleted member 779124]

My guess is that list of superior AO versions of Fed looks like this:

2004
2005
2006
2007
2008 (maybe)
2009
2010
2011 (maybe)
2012 (maybe)
2016 (maybe)
2017
2018 (maybe)

I feel like Murray could beat the versions of Fed that I marked "maybe".

AO 2017 Federer would probably struggle quite a bit on the 2013 surface vs Murray. 2006 and 2012 Federer as well but i expect Federer would find a way of hitting another gear in edging in out in 5 or something.

 

[RS]

They're not Murray.

They played Murray better than Federer.

 

[mike danny]

They played Murray better than Federer.

Did they?

Djokovic in particular lost 2 slams to him.

 

[RS]

Did they?

Djokovic in particular lost 2 slams to him.

17-7/25-11 >> 14-11

 

[InsideOut900]

My guess is that list of superior AO versions of Fed looks like this:

2004
2005
2006
2007
2008 (maybe)
2009
2010
2011 (maybe)
2012 (maybe)
2016 (maybe)
2017
2018 (maybe)

I feel like Murray could beat the versions of Fed that I marked "maybe".

I am taking Murray over 2016-2018 Fed. He was pushed to 5 by Nishikori/Stan/Cilic in 2017-2018 and peak Murray is better than all of them, plus 2017 Nadal too IMO.

Vs 2011/2012 on the super slow plexi it's a 50-50.

I am taking 2008 Fed over Murray slightly.

2006 Fed vs 2013 Murray. Fed would drop some sets due to his inconsistency, probably wins in 5 easy or 4 tight sets.

Of course, all these assuming Murray shows up in similar form to AO 12/13 SFs and can sustain it over 5 sets.