The Carnage Begins: S rated players from 2020 getting DQed in 2021

Vox Rationis

Semi-Pro
I can't believe people actually prefer playing tennis indoors so they don't have to experience the natural environment

They are probably the same people who prefer doubles because they don't have to run

Next thing will be automatic racquets so they don't have to swing
nice gatekeeping
 

zipplock

Hall of Fame
I can't believe people actually prefer playing tennis indoors so they don't have to experience the natural environment

They are probably the same people who prefer doubles because they don't have to run

Next thing will be automatic racquets so they don't have to swing
I am with you on this. One of my favorite things about tennis is being outside. While I enjoy indoor tennis, I will always choose to be outdoors if given the chance.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Related to this, I've observed an interesting oddity this year that is increasing the number of self-rated players.

There are a fair number of players who had 2017 year-end ratings, didn't play enough in 2018 or 2019 to get a year-end rating, but did play enough in 2020 to get a year-end rating, but obviously didn't get one since on year-end ratings were published. These 2017 ratings are now 3 years old and expired, and these players must self-rate again for 2021. Similarly, there are seniors who have a 2-year expiration and had a 2018 year-end rating and played enough in 2020 to get a new year-end rating, but now have to self-rate again.

So this also inflates the number of self-rates in 2021.

The bottom line is the USTA elected to treat 2020/2021 as one rating period for some things and accept the consequences of that, but then compound that by having 2017 and 2018 (senior) ratings expire even though there was no 2020 rating period.
 

Creighton

Rookie
Related to this, I've observed an interesting oddity this year that is increasing the number of self-rated players.

There are a fair number of players who had 2017 year-end ratings, didn't play enough in 2018 or 2019 to get a year-end rating, but did play enough in 2020 to get a year-end rating, but obviously didn't get one since on year-end ratings were published. These 2017 ratings are now 3 years old and expired, and these players must self-rate again for 2021. Similarly, there are seniors who have a 2-year expiration and had a 2018 year-end rating and played enough in 2020 to get a new year-end rating, but now have to self-rate again.

So this also inflates the number of self-rates in 2021.

The bottom line is the USTA elected to treat 2020/2021 as one rating period for some things and accept the consequences of that, but then compound that by having 2017 and 2018 (senior) ratings expire even though there was no 2020 rating period.
Is it allowing them to self rate lower than their computer rating they had in 2020?
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I can't believe people actually prefer playing tennis indoors so they don't have to experience the natural environment

They are probably the same people who prefer doubles because they don't have to run

Next thing will be automatic racquets so they don't have to swing
Weird.

Tennis cannot always be played in the ”natural environment,” as you put it. It can’t be played in rain or in darkness or extreme temperatures, or even in dense fog or after a storm. Outdoor tennis also looks awfully unfun for people who have to worry about sun protection, bundling up on a hot day or slathering sunscreen on every inch of exposed skin.

I guess outdoors is your jam if you like sun, wind, mosquitoes, and gnats. You do you, son. I’ll use my outdoor time for other things.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Is it allowing them to self rate lower than their computer rating they had in 2020?
I see some where the S is lower than the prior C, but these may have been appealed down from the same level S it originally had for them, there is no way of knowing whether TennisLink allowed it or it was appealed.
 

Cashman

Hall of Fame
Tennis cannot always be played in the ”natural environment,” as you put it.
So? You can't always ski in the natural environment, that doesn't mean the indoor ski hill in Dubai isn't completely ****

Tennis is an outdoor sport, it's like a climber saying they prefer gym walls over rock routes
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Related to this, I've observed an interesting oddity this year that is increasing the number of self-rated players.

There are a fair number of players who had 2017 year-end ratings, didn't play enough in 2018 or 2019 to get a year-end rating, but did play enough in 2020 to get a year-end rating, but obviously didn't get one since on year-end ratings were published. These 2017 ratings are now 3 years old and expired, and these players must self-rate again for 2021. Similarly, there are seniors who have a 2-year expiration and had a 2018 year-end rating and played enough in 2020 to get a new year-end rating, but now have to self-rate again.

So this also inflates the number of self-rates in 2021.

The bottom line is the USTA elected to treat 2020/2021 as one rating period for some things and accept the consequences of that, but then compound that by having 2017 and 2018 (senior) ratings expire even though there was no 2020 rating period.
Yup. I have one team member in this situation .... my guess given her play right now is that she is a high likelihood of getting DQed.
 

joeydivine

New User
Weird.

Tennis cannot always be played in the ”natural environment,” as you put it. It can’t be played in rain or in darkness or extreme temperatures, or even in dense fog or after a storm. Outdoor tennis also looks awfully unfun for people who have to worry about sun protection, bundling up on a hot day or slathering sunscreen on every inch of exposed skin.

I guess outdoors is your jam if you like sun, wind, mosquitoes, and gnats. You do you, son. I’ll use my outdoor time for other things.
Is it weird for you to watch tennis on tv? Where 99% of tournaments take place outside?

I can't imagine a place where tennis is primarily an indoor sport! How would you get court time?? There'd have to be stadiums filled with courts built to accommodate all the players where I live.
Also - there are lighted courts and - it helps if you're not "bundling up" on those hot days. ;)
And the tennis is still fun.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Is it weird for you to watch tennis on tv? Where 99% of tournaments take place outside?

I can't imagine a place where tennis is primarily an indoor sport! How would you get court time?? There'd have to be stadiums filled with courts built to accommodate all the players where I live.
Also - there are lighted courts and - it helps if you're not "bundling up" on those hot days. ;)
And the tennis is still fun.

J
 
Is it weird for you to watch tennis on tv? Where 99% of tournaments take place outside?

I can't imagine a place where tennis is primarily an indoor sport! How would you get court time?? There'd have to be stadiums filled with courts built to accommodate all the players where I live.
Also - there are lighted courts and - it helps if you're not "bundling up" on those hot days. ;)
And the tennis is still fun.
So people ought to not play tennis at all for four-six months in the places where it snows for that many months in a year? Got it.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Weird.

Tennis cannot always be played in the ”natural environment,” as you put it. It can’t be played in rain or in darkness or extreme temperatures, or even in dense fog or after a storm. Outdoor tennis also looks awfully unfun for people who have to worry about sun protection, bundling up on a hot day or slathering sunscreen on every inch of exposed skin.

I guess outdoors is your jam if you like sun, wind, mosquitoes, and gnats. You do you, son. I’ll use my outdoor time for other things.
I get why someone in certain areas would play indoors during bad weather months.
I really don't get choosing to only play indoors when the weather permits outside play. I glory in playing outdoors. I may whine now and then about some wind and when over 110 it is a pain to only play in the morning or at night. But I like adapting to different conditions, love the sun on my skin, the sounds of the park around us.
 

denoted

Rookie
Here's a question: a player self-rates at one level and gets three strikes that all are in the strike level for one above. (A 3.0S having three matches that would be strikes against a 3.5S, for instance.) Does the player get DQ'd and double-bumped?
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Here's a question: a player self-rates at one level and gets three strikes that all are in the strike level for one above. (A 3.0S having three matches that would be strikes against a 3.5S, for instance.) Does the player get DQ'd and double-bumped?
I would think that would be next to impossible.

If a 3.0S player is only playing 3.0C players even a string double bagels wouldn't have them generate a dNTRP that would put them to 4.0.

If the 3.0S player is playing up on a 3.5 team against 3.5C rated players then yes I suppose that they could strike out to 4.0 ...
 

denoted

Rookie
I would think that would be next to impossible.

If a 3.0S player is only playing 3.0C players even a string double bagels wouldn't have them generate a dNTRP that would put them to 4.0.

If the 3.0S player is playing up on a 3.5 team against 3.5C rated players then yes I suppose that they could strike out to 4.0 ...
the latter scenario is what I have in mind. I'm just wondering if the double-bump would occur as a matter of policy, even if the numbers warranted it.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
the latter scenario is what I have in mind. I'm just wondering if the double-bump would occur as a matter of policy, even if the numbers warranted it.
I believe it would, and I've seen players that self-rated at X and then show a DQ at X+1.0, but those I just found doing a quick search appear to have been administrative (grievance filed of some sort) or the player appealed their self-rate up to X+0.5 in between the original self-rate and the DQ.
 

Cashman

Hall of Fame
So people ought to not play tennis at all for four-six months in the places where it snows for that many months in a year? Got it.
Indoor tennis is better than no tennis, I just can’t fathom choosing it over playing outdoors where I have the option

Kind of like how I’ll go to the climbing gym to keep my skills sharp, but it’s a distant second best to getting out on the rocks
 

Purestriker

Rookie
Here's a question: a player self-rates at one level and gets three strikes that all are in the strike level for one above. (A 3.0S having three matches that would be strikes against a 3.5S, for instance.) Does the player get DQ'd and double-bumped?
That didn't happen in my example I posted here earlier. I thought she did, but she was able to appeal and only DQ'd at 3.0 because most of the strikes were when she was a 2.5 S rate vs. when she rerated at 3.0S.
 

Idrayer

New User
What happens to the player who threads the needle and gets 3 strikes at level X putting their DNRTP slightly above X+0.5, but the matches are not strikes at the X+0.5 level? For example if player is playing as a 3.0S and gets strikes and maintains a DNRTP of 3.54 with a threshold of strikes for 3.5 at 3.55, would that player be promoted directly to 4.0 even though none of their matches would be strikes at the 3.5 level?
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
the latter scenario is what I have in mind. I'm just wondering if the double-bump would occur as a matter of policy, even if the numbers warranted it.
Yes, it would apply. There was a guy maybe 10 years ago in Middle States who rated 3.5S and played 1 3.5 match that he won 6-0 6-0. He then joined a 4.0 team and was DQ'd from 3.5 S to 4.5 D based on his results at 4.0.
 

Vox Rationis

Semi-Pro
If not sarcasm: What TV channel are you watching Challenger matches on?
The same channel outdoor challengers are on. Sometimes it’s the Tennis Channel. Or some obscure direct TV channel. Or just an online stream through official (or unofficial) sources. You can pretty much watch any challenger level or above tournament someway somehow.

Also Indoor tennis is a massive part of the sport. You can’t just diminish it just because you personally don’t play indoors.
 

joeydivine

New User
The same channel outdoor challengers are on. Sometimes it’s the Tennis Channel. Or some obscure direct TV channel. Or just an online stream through official (or unofficial) sources. You can pretty much watch any challenger level or above tournament someway somehow.

Also Indoor tennis is a massive part of the sport. You can’t just diminish it just because you personally don’t play indoors.
I wasn't diminishing it.
What was being diminished was playing outdoor tennis - bugs, sunshine, wind, etc...

I'm still curious about the monthly cost of playing indoors.
 

Traffic

Hall of Fame
Just curious - how much per month does it cost to play tennis indoors?
Say.. two matches a week plus a coaching/practice day.
For public courts, it's $16per person per hour
For private clubs, it varies quite a bit depending on membership fees. But overall, will not be less than the public court fees so >$16ppph
For my club, which is one of the cheaper clubs, it's $130/mo membership, $22 classes, $4 or $8pp to rent courts. So for play 4x a week, probably $20ppph
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
I'm still curious about the monthly cost of playing indoors.
Indoor court time is almost always more expensive than outdoor court time. Just like outdoor fees, the indoor fees will vary depending on how nice the club is and how many other indoor facilities are available locally (competition). I don’t know how much my club charges for indoor time because I never look at the statement and they just debit my account for some seemingly random amount every month. At my club, it is a competitive process to get indoor time during the winter, especially at peak hours like weeknights at 6:00 for instance. These times are booked far in advance (months), and spontaneous play is not available. Seniority, knowing the right people, and donations help with this. In that context, if you are able to get prime indoor court time, you don’t ask how much it costs.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
I'm reasonably sure it does. In my section, the results stand, so I don't know why the match ranking wouldn't.
In my section the results are reversed for the purpose of team standings. However I believe that the result does count for your dNTRP for ratings purposes.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
In my section the results are reversed for the purpose of team standings. However I believe that the result does count for your dNTRP for ratings purposes.
This would be correct. Sections have the option to reverse results for standing or not, some do, some don't, but the result itself remains recorded and is used as such for ratings.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
This would be correct. Sections have the option to reverse results for standing or not, some do, some don't, but the result itself remains recorded and is used as such for ratings.
Middle States reverses only the third strike now. They used to reverse all three strikes, but changed that when they went to PPP.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Middle States reverses only the third strike now. They used to reverse all three strikes, but changed that when they went to PPP.
Well, that is still better than letting the results stand. The USTA is just asking for captains to cheat if the only result of a DQ is a player not being eligible going forward. If none of the past matches are at risk, a captain is welcome to load up on self-rates and just hope enough make it through the season.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
I feel like Eastern overturns the entire season's matches for the DQ player.

J
Eastern used to, but as more sections go to PPP, that is a huge penalty, so I'm not sure if that is still true or not. Middle States still reverses all of the points for self-rating grievances, just not dynamic DQ.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Eastern used to, but as more sections go to PPP, that is a huge penalty, so I'm not sure if that is still true or not. Middle States still reverses all of the points for self-rating grievances, just not dynamic DQ.
What is PPP?
Nevermind ... must be Point Per Position

For a DQ I don't think it is too high of a penalty. Captains absolutely know if they have an out of level S rated player. They can play that person on D3 or S2 and take their lumps in case of a DQ.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Or...
Option B...
Wait for it...

Don't cheat.

J
yup yup!

For 18+ season that started a few weeks back, I turned away a 3.5S rate. Came out and played a practice set ... yeah, not a 3.5 player ... handed her to a 4.0 captain. She has played 2 matches thus far at 4.0. Won both by wide margins at S1 and D1. 4.0 captain thinks she will be bumped/DQed to 4.5
 
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