The case against leg drive on the serve

HunterST

Hall of Fame
It's a fairly common piece of tennis wisdom that a big part of power on the serve comes from leg drive up. However, I personally just cannot find an explosive upwards move all that helpful. I certainly think a degree of upward leg drive is necessary, but I think movement into the court is maybe more important.

The serve is often compared to an upward throw. If this analogy is trusted, it would suggest the jumping motion would not be fundamental. When a quarterback throws a ball up at a steep angle, they do not jump. There is certainly a bending and a straightening of the knees, but power is not derived from a jumping motion.

Another common analogy, swatting a fly on a fence, does not support this jumping motion either. To swat a fly that is up high on a fence, we would coil our bodies (which, yes, would involve some leg bend but not the type or degree that people suggest) and then uncoil into the fence.

Now, I know that many people who are far better at tennis than me claim the opposite, so I'm not sure what I'm missing. When I focus on leg drive, I do not feel any added power. To me, it seems like knee bend is part of coiling and straightening them is part of uncoiling, but most people seem to suggest thinking of it more as an explosive jumping movement.

What are your views on the role of leg drive in the serve?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
You don't have to bend your knees and drive upwards and forwards.
Just because EVERY ATP and WTA player does, doesn't mean YOU have to. And seems every 4.5 and higher level player does also, but you don't have to.
Why increase the height of your strikepoint by jumping? Why stretch your body vertically by reaching upwards? What gain could possibly be had?
 

inzone

Rookie
You don't have to bend your knees and drive upwards and forwards.
Just because EVERY ATP and WTA player does, doesn't mean YOU have to. And seems every 4.5 and higher level player does also, but you don't have to.
Why increase the height of your strikepoint by jumping? Why stretch your body vertically by reaching upwards? What gain could possibly be had?

If you are able to consistently have a higher contact point on the serve without any drawbacks then this gives you a slight advantage geometrically to get the serve into the box. Same reason why I jump serve in volleyball.
 

goran_ace

Hall of Fame
Problem is you're focusing on the leg drive. Yes, you absolutely need to use the legs to generate power, but if you are just focusing on that you are probably neglecting something else.
 
Deep knee bends and getting airborne during a serve is a tradeoff in my experience.

Taylor Dent hit some of the fastest recorded serves and he pivoted off his front foot (like I do in my basic serve motion) and never left the ground on contact. Take a look at the Wimbledon record serve that he hit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVv6jvD1W-0

The extra margin and better angles from a higher contact point is inarguable. But when it comes to raw speed, I don't think explosively getting off the ground makes much of a difference (because you are trading off activating one group of muscles versus others) if you are past a height threshold (6"1 or so) and have the upper body strength. Wawarinka and Granollers are more recent examples who have powerful serves and barely get off the ground.
 
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Lukhas

Legend
I think there's a difference between "leg drive" and "jumping". Because you're getting high in the air doesn't mean you're not using leg drive. And because you get high doesn't mean you're using your legs effectively. For example, and in the video just upwards of Taylor Dent, from my point of view he did use his legs. He bent them and finished inside the court in a very noticeable way, which IMO qualifies as "leg drive".

OTOH, I do believe in using the legs as the "trigger" to your motion. It's where it starts from, the first part that moves; like the trigger is to firing a bullet. It's important that the kinetic chain fires in order (legs, hips, core, shoulder, arm, racquet) to achieve your "best" serve potential. IIRC, this not being the case was described by Rick Macci as "leaking". I don't have the video on hand but that's what I remember from it.

Tl; Dr: IMO "Leg Drive" and "Jumping/getting high in air" is different.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
... There is certainly a bending and a straightening of the knees, but power is not derived from a jumping motion...

Not much of a case against employing leg drive for the serve. One does not need to become airborne (jump) in order to incorporate leg drive. That bending and straightening of the knees you mention is usually a sign of leg drive. This applies to tennis serving as well as other athletic actions.

BTW, there was a time when jump passes were quite common in football. You still see it used every once in a while by modern QBs (Tebow and others). Not sure if modern QBs use it for long passes tho'. Nonetheless, QBs are still using leg drive for those long passes even tho' they are not jumping.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
You don't need to jump or even have a deep knee bend but IMO it's a good idea to initiate the motion from the legs.

I've seen a guy serve 90 or 100mph by just pronating his arm though but it was a pro coach & pro hitting partner demonstrating pronation to me.
 
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RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
Deep knee bends and getting airborne during a serve is a tradeoff in my experience.

Tayor Dent hit some of the fastest recorded serves and he pivoted off his front foot (like I do in my basic serve motion) and never left the ground on contact. Take a look at the Wimbledon record serve that he hit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVv6jvD1W-0

The extra margin and better angles from a higher contact point is inarguable. But when it comes to raw speed, I don't think explosively getting off the ground makes much of a difference (because you are trading off activating one group of muscles versus others) if you are past a height threshold (6"1 or so) and have the upper body strength. Wawarinka and Granollers are more recent examples who have powerful serves and barely get off the ground.

Very interesting video. He does bend his knees. But he kind of pivots over his front foot.
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
Sometimes I feel the need to work a little on somebody's leg drive when they serve with straight knees or their legs are generally too passive. That puts a lot more stress into the arm, shoulder, and maybe the back when a "dead leg" server tries to take bigger swings.

One potential move that's easy to spot when this is happening is when a server sends his/her butt backward to drive the racquet over the top and forward. Lots of the "drive" for that sort of serve comes from not much more than bending forward at the waist and maybe too much shoulder torque (ISR) .

A leg drive might not even require much of a vertical drive that results in that jumping on the follow-through. Some developing servers get more of a leg contribution merely by learning to use a forward weight transfer through the swing... not unlike a throwing motion.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Not much of a case against employing leg drive for the serve. One does not need to become airborne (jump) in order to incorporate leg drive. That bending and straightening of the knees you mention is usually a sign of leg drive. This applies to tennis serving as well as other athletic actions.

BTW, there was a time when jump passes were quite common in football. You still see it used every once in a while by modern QBs (Tebow and others). Not sure if modern QBs use it for long passes tho'. Nonetheless, QBs are still using leg drive for those long passes even tho' they are not jumping.

The case against leg drive is just this..

It's hard to implement correctly so on people who do not have the correct serve motion down it can be a negative and increase what you could call the 'coordination load'.

Once you have the basic serve down - you can work on adding in the leg drive.. As Chas says though - around 50% of people never get there.

Does leg drive help the waiter's tray serve? Well according to serve doc its not hit at maximum height - so you probably don't need a lot of leg drive with it.
 

LakeSnake

Professional
You don't need to jump or even have a deep knee bend but IMO it's a good idea to initiate the motion from the legs.

I've a guy serve 90 or 100mph by just pronating his arm though but it was a pro coach & pro hitting partner demonstrating pronation to me.

I think Dave Smith says he can serve 100 mph on his knees.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
............................
When I focus on leg drive, I do not feel any added power. To me, it seems like knee bend is part of coiling and straightening them is part of uncoiling, but most people seem to suggest thinking of it more as an explosive jumping movement.

What are your views on the role of leg drive in the serve?

Leg thrust is one of several motions that cause stretching in the shoulder if the arm and racket are positioned properly. It is said that it is the most effective of the contributors.

This thread has a lot of information, links and pictures.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=475036

Thread about serving from the knees with no leg thrust.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=414039

Baseball and football direct the ball horizontally where tennis directs a racket more upward. Baseball pitchers move toward home plate to get a shoulder stretch and servers move upward to get a stretch. The stretch involves the muscles used for internal shoulder rotation(ISR). Search for information: internal shoulder rotation leg thrust

Take some videos of your serve in direct sunlight from the side and behind. Fixes and discussion points apply mostly to the high level serving technique. If you have another technique they may not apply.

Reference - Technique Development for Tennis Stroke Development, 2009, Elliott available from the ITF Store and on Kindle. $20.
 
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Like with the forehand, it's more about hips than legs. And like Chas said, your serve alignment should be such that the hip drive stretches the shoulder. If it doesn't, then you have a disconnect in the kinetic chain, and the work done by the legs and the hips is almost useless.

Combine the ideas in these two vids, and you should have a clear understanding of it. And yes, just "pushing up" with the legs is useless. :)

http://youtu.be/v8q2cBx19ec
http://youtu.be/WsJJ_BWBQcI
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Post on throwing to help learn serving -

She has stretched her ISR muscles and in one case throws upward and in the other, serves. Look at her similar upper arm positions. For ISR the upper arm rotates but the shoulder stays in about the same location. It seems from comparing these two pictures as if the throw would be a very good simulation for the serve as Pat Dougherty knew. Some wind up is necessary for ISR.

Pat Dougherty has a video about throwing as a learning tool for the serve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EFWB18kPWY#t=44

It is not really possible to see what is being done when the 30 or 60 fps video is simply played or how it might relate to the 'proper throwing motion' or the tennis serve.

Here is a frame that shows an important part of the throwing motion. Update 9/26/2014 - Compare to the serve.

232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv%3B%3C%3B6%3Dot%3E83%3A6%3D44%3A%3D348%3DXROQDF%3E2823%3A%3A48%3B%3B257ot1lsi
232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv6%3B%3A7%3Dot%3E83%3A6%3D44%3A%3D348%3DXROQDF%3E2854%3A32643257ot1lsi


This is my opinion so don't base your throwing motions on this view without making sure it is safe for you -

This frame, directly from the YT video, shows two images of the forearm superimposed. The images were taken at slightly different times (probably because the original video was interlaced (?)).

The action is that the upper arm (humerus, at the shoulder) is being rotated by internal shoulder rotation (ISR). Because the forearm is at an angle to the arm, the IRS gives the hand & ball a high speed. The two superimposed images of the forearm show that the elbow angle between the upper arm and forearm is straightening very rapidly .

The upper arm is held straight out from the shoulder in the same orientation as recommended in the Ellenbecker video for ISR on the tennis serve. This orientation minimizes the risk of impingement during forceful ISR.

For the high level tennis serve, similar ISR occurs but the entire arm is straight. Then the racket has to have an angle (the angle rapidly changing) to the forearm in order to develop racket head speed from the ISR.

In the video, she displays a trophy-position-like motion leading to the forward throw.

Both this throwing motion and the tennis serve are getting a similar large contribution from ISR.

This is the first time I have ever been able to see that the throwing motion - as a practice technique - had any direct relation to the tennis serve.

(It is unfortunate that all instructional videos on rapid athletic motions are not presented using high speed video where the motions would be clear and easy to understand. Pat Dougherty's videos would be foremost since he has some excellent material.......)

Professional baseball pitcher Tim Lincecum. The arm is horizontal unlike the vertical arm for the girl's throw above. The forceful ISR occurs just before the flopping of the biceps muscle late in the pitching motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2PBLcp9tWM

Professional server Milos Raonic. Arm is more vertical than the baseball pitcher. The biceps flops around in a similar way to Lincecum's bicep following the rapid ISR.
https://vimeo.com/66720415
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
The case against leg drive is just this..

It's hard to implement correctly so on people who do not have the correct serve motion down it can be a negative and increase what you could call the 'coordination load'.

Once you have the basic serve down - you can work on adding in the leg drive.. As Chas says though - around 50% of people never get there...

Not really a case against leg drive. Yes, for novice servers, we would not dwell on it or even discuss it. As the toss and other elements fall into place, I would start to encourage a mild knee bend. However, not until later -- perhaps at the intermediate level -- would a leg drive be emphasized.
 
The case against leg drive is just this..

It's hard to implement correctly so on people who do not have the correct serve motion down it can be a negative and increase what you could call the 'coordination load'.

Once you have the basic serve down - you can work on adding in the leg drive.. As Chas says though - around 50% of people never get there.

Does leg drive help the waiter's tray serve? Well according to serve doc its not hit at maximum height - so you probably don't need a lot of leg drive with it.

No female pros, bar Serena/Venus, never got there! Really says something. :shock:
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Strange case of tennis kinetics.
Most women have stronger legs than mem, compared to upper body strengths.
Yet, most women just arm the serve with a little bit of leg drive while the men really drive hard up and into the ball.
Go figure.
 

Enga

Hall of Fame
Forcing the issue and trying to jump during the serve can cause knee issues, at least in my case. I had better results and a more comfortable motion when used more my hips, and didnt necessarily jump. Its more like a small skip forward.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
If you don't know the service motion, you cannot apply a small jump into your serves.
Takes about 3 years of tennis to get a solid service motion.
I"m a week from 66, and my lower foot is well 5" off the court. I can barely jump 7" off the court, but the upward swing motion from bent legs gives extra lift.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
They only bend the knees, push directly up, and armswing the serve. The disconnect in the kinetic chain between lower and upper body is bad, because they have no hip rotation contributing to the external rotation of the shoulder: http://youtu.be/v8q2cBx19ec

Nope, you are wrong about this. The timing of the leg drive extension looks correct for the servers that I looked at in your link. Not just a knee bend. They are loading the legs -- usually after the ball toss release and prior to the trophy position. The legs start their extension/drive and the racket head drops. The legs fire first and then the arm/racket fires immediately afterward. They are exhibit a kinetic transfer from the lower body to the torso, shoulder and arm. Undeniable leg drive here.
 
Nope, you are wrong about this. The timing of the leg drive extension looks correct for the servers that I looked at in your link. Not just a knee bend. They are loading the legs -- usually after the ball toss release and prior to the trophy position. The legs start their extension/drive and the racket head drops. The legs fire first and then the arm/racket fires immediately afterward. They are exhibit a kinetic transfer from the lower body to the torso, shoulder and arm. Undeniable leg drive here.

Sure, leg drive as "jumping up", but not as hip rotation contributing to external rotation of the shoulder (before the final internal rotation up to contact). Merely jumping up is useless, does not contribute to the power or proper throwing motion.

Try shadow swinging that hip rotation. I can use it, even with totally straight legs, to get the loose arm into external rotation. Without the rotation, the ISR is much less powerful, because SSC of the shoulder is lacking.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
you guys have covered it pretty well but my thoughts are:

1.WTA and ATP almost universally have some degree of upward and forward thrust coming from the legs
2. Even in old days when rules required 1 foot on the ground, there was still some degree of upward and forward thrust. Boris Becker used a walk-in step rather than the more common thrust up and land on the front-foot but Boris still had up and forward action coming from the lower body. Laver and Pancho G had upward and inward thrust from legs too.
3. I agree with others that it isn't a jump. More of a pre-load and hit up. If the legs push up and core rotates, even rec players may get off the ground a bit but don't jump. Rather, push up or use an upward throwing motion like a baseball pitcher who uses his legs for drive.

I do think from a practice drill perspective, it can be beneficial to remove the legs from the serve. I have seen a few videos where pros talk about starting with just shoulder rotation and concentrating on keeping the legs relatively passive. Then go to the walking serve where you step into the serve with the back leg as you rotate the shoulders. Finally, add loading weight into the legs and driving upward. But, the end goal is using the legs and the other drills are usually to ensure you have good balance, to take out crazy hitches and excessive body motions, and to provide a logical progression.

My guess is if the OP felt like the serve is better with less legs, then it solved some balance and/or timing issues he had. It does simplify the motion and make it easier to stay on balance. I have a friend who doesn't use much leg and focuses primarily on core rotation to serve. I think he has better balance without concentrating on loading legs and pushing up. Odd thing is he actually gets a small amount of thrust from the legs even though he would tell you he doesn't think about it.
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
It's a fairly common piece of tennis wisdom that a big part of power on the serve comes from leg drive up.

No doubt you can serve with excellent power without much upward leg drive. You can use ISR without big leg drive upwards.

The question is, how many can you make?
While leg drive does help with loading and racket drop, I think that the upward leg drive is mostly about 2 issues ahead of that. First it is about the helpful type spin that is much easier with good leg drive (much like with the Fh), as that spin helps you bring the ball down as required with big power serves. Second Imo is how it helps with a premium contact point. A higher contact point (within limits of course) can improve your window of success for your power serves.

In conclusion, I'd say that leg drive is more of a power enabler, than a power generator for most servers,.... but that the load and racket drop aspect I mentioned is very critical Imo for the massive servers at 135+ range. They are using the leg drive to load the racket drop and delay the elbow extension for the most powerful serves in the game. They also use the leg drive to set a sort of launch angle "into the court" as you mentioned, but with a better/higher contact point than you would get without the leg drive upwards!
 
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ultradr

Legend
It's a fairly common piece of tennis wisdom that a big part of power on the serve comes from leg drive up.

I would say it's a myth rather than wisdom.

Serve is an arm swing and majority of power/racquet head speed comes from rotations of joins in your arm.

It is NOT wise pay too much attention to your leg drive even though you have not mastered your swing path, which I think one of the common mistake we non-pros make, IMHO.
 

spacediver

Hall of Fame
Serve is an arm swing and majority of power/racquet head speed comes from rotations of joins in your arm.

Just because those joints show the highest velocity at contact doesn't mean that the highest amount of power is derived from those joints.

If you were to measure joint velocities at impact, and found 100% velocity contribution from wrist and 0% velocity contribution from rest of body, it could still mean legs and hips provided 100% of power and wrist provided 0% power.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Wheelchair player Houdet can serve 100mph.

The leg drive adds power, which is why top wheelchair players will serve about 25 mph slower than top ATP pros.

Don't necessarily have to jump, but leg drive is necessary.
 

RajS

Semi-Pro
Just realized I posted after Raul_SJ again! Hey Raul, we'll have to meet up sometime to make sure we are not the same person, LOL!
 

HughJars

Banned
Who are some current ATP players that dont have big leg drives?

I can think of a couple:
- Wawrinka
- Almagro

Anyone else?
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Sure, leg drive as "jumping up", but not as hip rotation contributing to external rotation of the shoulder (before the final internal rotation up to contact). Merely jumping up is useless, does not contribute to the power or proper throwing motion.

Try shadow swinging that hip rotation. I can use it, even with totally straight legs, to get the loose arm into external rotation. Without the rotation, the ISR is much less powerful, because SSC of the shoulder is lacking.

I am not really talking about jumping per se when I say that leg drive is present for most WTA serves. If loading and unloading of the legs happen at the proper time in the kinetic chain of the serve (or other stroke), then leg drive is present.

I would say, however, that many WTA players do not employ sufficient coiling of the hips (and torso) and do not employ enough shoulder tilt. The Jack Broudy video you supplied appears to agree with this view. I do not believe that Broudy says that leg drive is not present. The effectiveness of a leg drive can be reduced if other links are lacking. But this does not negate that assertion that leg drive is present.
 
I am not really talking about jumping per se when I say that leg drive is present for most WTA serves. If loading and unloading of the legs happen at the proper time in the kinetic chain of the serve (or other stroke), then leg drive is present.

I would say, however, that many WTA players do not employ sufficient coiling of the hips (and torso) and do not employ enough shoulder tilt. The Jack Broudy video you supplied appears to agree with this view. I do not believe that Broudy says that leg drive is not present. The effectiveness of a leg drive can be reduced if other links are lacking. But this does not negate that assertion that leg drive is present.

Yes, I realized that you all were talking about loading of the legs, as per knee bend. I was basically including that coiling of the hips as a leg drive, because glutes are still leg muscles.

So how essential is loading of the knee bend? IMO, not at all essential. Hip rotation gives hige amounts of power, but knee bend not that much.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
^ I see the hip rotation factor as a different link in the kinetic chain from the leg drive. To be sure, however, they are overlapping links. I would agree with 5263, "leg drive is more of a power enabler, than a power generator for many servers".

.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
This Pat Dougherty video has a very detailed view on the relation of the leg drive to the upper body motions. He has a very interesting perspective and even relates things to the rule change in 1961 that allowed both feet to leave the ground. Increasingly, leg drive began to be used after the rule change in 1961.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgdXawklcZk

There are at least 6 trunks and upper body motions in addition to the leg drive that can stretch the internal shoulder rotator muscles as well as directly increase swing speed.

Servers are using a mix of leg drive and these 6 or more body motions.

Stan Wawrinka's feet get off the ground so he is using leg drive.
 

ultradr

Legend
Just because those joints show the highest velocity at contact doesn't mean that the highest amount of power is derived from those joints.

If you were to measure joint velocities at impact, and found 100% velocity contribution from wrist and 0% velocity contribution from rest of body, it could still mean legs and hips provided 100% of power and wrist provided 0% power.

I can guarantee you will get 80-90% of serve power without a leg drive.

I am pretty sure 99% of serving problem among non-professionals are one of these 2
1. Arm swing - swing path
2. Toss

You will get much more power/spin by working on these two than working on
leg drive.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Legs were used even in the stone age. Look at Budge, Laver and the other old timer in the link below and see how their back hip fires up into contact. Rule required them to keep the front foot on the ground but the legs still drove up and into contact. This video also shows Sampras and Becker toward the end of the video. Yes, the modern guys are using more leg push as they leave the ground but the old guys had a very similar motion with good leg drive up and into contact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QL1sglyouU
 
Just goes to show, how important the HIP action (hip rotation) is on serve. Today, my serve was so much off, it was stiff, and I struggled to generate any power that I normally do. Then out of nowhere, close to the end of the session, I realized that I wasn't loading my hips at all. I was just bending the knees, and arming the serve, i.e having leg drive and upper body power generation. Then I rotated the hips, and just created most of the power from the hips. My serve immediately went back on!

At least for me, I feel like 90% of my ACTIVE power generation comes from the hips. I feel the power generation of the upper body is mostly passive, based on proper alignment of the body parts when I begin my hip rotation.

I'm a firm believer of the Jack Broudy video that I linked earlier!
 

toly

Hall of Fame
Just goes to show, how important the HIP action (hip rotation) is on serve. Today, my serve was so much off, it was stiff, and I struggled to generate any power that I normally do. Then out of nowhere, close to the end of the session, I realized that I wasn't loading my hips at all. I was just bending the knees, and arming the serve, i.e having leg drive and upper body power generation. Then I rotated the hips, and just created most of the power from the hips. My serve immediately went back on!

At least for me, I feel like 90% of my ACTIVE power generation comes from the hips. I feel the power generation of the upper body is mostly passive, based on proper alignment of the body parts when I begin my hip rotation.

I'm a firm believer of the Jack Broudy video that I linked earlier!

Safin pinpoint stance decreases angular range of pelvis rotation.

Around contact pelvis revolution moves the racquet away from the ball, but upper body rotation moves it into ball!!! IMO Jack Broudy is wrong.

Safin-serve-min-pelvis-rotation.gif
 
Safin pinpoint stance decreases angular range of pelvis rotation.

Around contact pelvis revolution moves the racquet away from the ball, but upper body rotation moves it into ball!!! IMO Jack Broudy is wrong.

Yeah, but there's the kinetic chain of events. When I begin the hip rotation (I use a big range of it), the racquet is dropping into the slot. Then a bit later, the rotating shoulders draw the racquet back up, and then lastly ISR draws the racquet into the ball contact. It's a lot like with modern forehand IMO.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
No doubt you can serve with excellent power without much upward leg drive. You can use ISR without big leg drive upwards.

The question is, how many can you make?
While leg drive does help with loading and racket drop, I think that the upward leg drive is mostly about 2 issues ahead of that. First it is about the helpful type spin that is much easier with good leg drive (much like with the Fh), as that spin helps you bring the ball down as required with big power serves. Second Imo is how it helps with a premium contact point. A higher contact point (within limits of course) can improve your window of success for your power serves.

In conclusion, I'd say that leg drive is more of a power enabler, than a power generator for most servers,.... but that the load and racket drop aspect I mentioned is very critical Imo for the massive servers at 135+ range. They are using the leg drive to load the racket drop and delay the elbow extension for the most powerful serves in the game. They also use the leg drive to set a sort of launch angle "into the court" as you mentioned, but with a better/higher contact point than you would get without the leg drive upwards!


This is a very accurate description, since reading the other thread about shoulder rotation on the serve I have been really working on my serve for the last week. I have also heard a lot about using leg drive.

So I have been using the leg drive and the shoulder rotation and have definitely made some improvements. But I found that if I got to carried away with the leg drive that it was hard to time with the shoulder rotation

I found that by just using a little knee bend and raising up it made my contact point higher and improved my serve. But because I was only using a slight leg drive it did not effect my timing and helped my contact point. So you are right on the money with your theory on leg drive.
 

toly

Hall of Fame
Yeah, but there's the kinetic chain of events. When I begin the hip rotation (I use a big range of it), the racquet is dropping into the slot. Then a bit later, the rotating shoulders draw the racquet back up, and then lastly ISR draws the racquet into the ball contact. It's a lot like with modern forehand IMO.

Federer hits hard inside out forehand and doesn’t rotate pelvis at all, but there is a lot of upper body rotation. Broudy is wrong again. :shock:

Federer_Forehand_on_APAS_System_Pelvic_rotation.jpg
 
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