The Closed Racket Face Tilt for Top Spin Drives, FH & BH

[Chas Tennis]

The closed racket face can be observed from the side camera view. TennisSpeed has some of the best displays of the closed racket face tilt on the internet.

TennisSpeed Research: May 2011

tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com

Somewhere TennisSpeed has a short video of their technique for applying the lines. Please post if you find.

The video analysis application Kinovea can apply these lines to videos. Kinovea has many capabilities and is a free, open source application. Applying a millisecond time to each frame is my favorite Kinovea capability.

TennisSpeed application to Djokovic & Federer. Late in this article the racket face tilts are shown.

TennisSpeed Research

tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com

 

[Clay lover]

Is this tilt a conscious attempt to improve the quality of the shot or just a product of a natural finish and/or contact with the ball?

 

[Chas Tennis]

Is this tilt a conscious attempt to improve the quality of the shot or just a product of a natural finish and/or contact with the ball?

It is trained along with the stroke technique and selected grip or adjusted grip and by experience playing. Players have forehand and backhand grips that require lots of changes. Whether or not that has to be conscious or not, I don't know. If I see a high ball coming I may decide to adjust the grip for racket face to be more closed.

My conscious thought has only one channel, it could be an image or words. If I'm speaking, I hear the words I'm saying, but then is the brain that is creating the words "conscious"? The words just seem to appear magically from behind a curtain......but....?

Your body has 600 muscles (what is the number of active muscles for movement?) and many muscles can receive active nerve signals for motions during the 1-2 seconds of a tennis stroke. With my one conscious channel, how many active muscles could I possibly control at one time? The nerve signals also have to be sent ahead of time because the nerve signals take many milliseconds to travel to hands and feet. Normally, I seem to just wish for my hand to move somewhere and it does that. What was your conscious thought to scratch your ear?

For training, you have to use conscious thoughts for new things. Start with left foot.....Raise the racket above your head.........

The strokes are so poorly known technically and communicated, that is where I'm spending my time. The consciousness question on the forum is probably just where it was in 2004 when the forum started.

 

[Shroud]

The closed racket face can be observed from the side camera view. TennisSpeed has some of the best displays of the closed racket face tilt on the internet.

TennisSpeed Research: May 2011

tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com

Somewhere TennisSpeed has a short video of their technique for applying the lines. Please post if you find.

The video analysis application Kinovea can apply these lines to videos. Kinovea has many capabilities and is a free, open source application. Applying a millisecond time to each frame is my favorite Kinovea capability.

TennisSpeed application to Djokovic & Federer. Late in this article the racket face tilts are shown.

TennisSpeed Research

tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com

closed racquet face is one of the 3 1/2 components of topspin generation.

 

[Dragy]

Can someone clarify the purpose of this thread? Don’t get it from the OP.

Guys responding — what do you respond to?

 

[Shroud]

Can someone clarify the purpose of this thread? Don’t get it from the OP.

Guys responding — what do you respond to?

the concept of closed racquet face.

 

[Dragy]

the concept of closed racquet face.

The concept of closed racquet face .. what? Someone is arguing against it? Something is new about it? What am I missing?

 

[Grafil Injection]

The important point is for topspin the face must be closed to the path of the racket. The angle in relation to horizontal is irrelevant. Hence, if you have a path that is steeply ascending, the racket face can be open to the horizontal but still closed to the path, and apply topspin.

 

[Waves]

I want this on my fh and bh. But when I’ve videoed myself, I only see it in a minority of swings. I want it more without driving the ball into the net.

The factors that I’ve noticed that allow for this to be a successful addition to my swings are higher balls, contact point way out in front, at least a sw grip, starting with a very low stance, and a super relaxed grip. Hard to do all in a game situation.

Please tell me what I’m missing, or at least the most important components of a stroke that will contribute to success. Thanks.

Edit. Thanks for the above reply. Didn’t see it as I was typing.

 

[Grafil Injection]

I want this on my fh and bh. But when I’ve videoed myself, I only see it in a minority of swings. I want it more without driving the ball into the net.

The factors that I’ve noticed that allow for this to be a successful addition to my swings are higher balls, contact point way out in front, at least a sw grip, starting with a very low stance, and a super relaxed grip. Hard to do all in a game situation.

Please tell me what I’m missing, or at least the most important components of a stroke that will contribute to success. Thanks.

Edit. Thanks for the above reply. Didn’t see it as I was typing.

Don't worry too much about the racket face (assuming you have at least an Eastern grip), concentrate on making a low to high swing path.

 

[J011yroger]

The important point is for topspin the face must be closed to the path of the racket. The angle in relation to horizontal is irrelevant. Hence, if you have a path that is steeply ascending, the racket face can be open to the horizontal but still closed to the path, and apply topspin.

You're not going to last long around here if you keep making sense.

J

 

[J011yroger]

The closed racket face can be observed from the side camera view. TennisSpeed has some of the best displays of the closed racket face tilt on the internet.

TennisSpeed Research: May 2011

tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com

Somewhere TennisSpeed has a short video of their technique for applying the lines. Please post if you find.

The video analysis application Kinovea can apply these lines to videos. Kinovea has many capabilities and is a free, open source application. Applying a millisecond time to each frame is my favorite Kinovea capability.

TennisSpeed application to Djokovic & Federer. Late in this article the racket face tilts are shown.

TennisSpeed Research

tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com

I suggest you study high level forehands and backhands frame by frame.

J

 

[Dragy]

You're not going to last long around here if you keep making sense.

J

Oh, some piracy going on here again!

 

[Shroud]

The concept of closed racquet face .. what? Someone is arguing against it? Something is new about it? What am I missing?

yep. This study was cited in TLMs thread about flattening out the ball where it was argued that the racquet was vertical at contact. This study was given as proof. Then I saw it here and figured it was good to point out that a closed racquet face is one of the components of topspin.

Said another way, not everyone is as educated as you Dragy. You would benefit from remembering how advanced you are when slumming on TT.

 

[inflation_era]

The important point is for topspin the face must be closed to the path of the racket. The angle in relation to horizontal is irrelevant. Hence, if you have a path that is steeply ascending, the racket face can be open to the horizontal but still closed to the path, and apply topspin.

Nobody seems to get this. Open and closed relative to ground is meaningless. One can hit topspin even if the racquet is open relative to the ground, if the path is steep enough.

 

[J011yroger]

Nobody seems to get this. Open and closed relative to ground is meaningless. One can hit topspin even if the racquet is open relative to the ground, if the path is steep enough.

What if I told you that the incoming ball also had something to do with the equation?

I don't think TW is ready for the fact that playing against Nadal requires a different racquet face angle than playing Larry the plumber in your Wednesday 3.0 league.

J

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

The concept of closed racquet face .. what? Someone is arguing against it? Something is new about it? What am I missing?

Good point, not sure. The "closed" just happens naturally without thought, for me at least based on video. I've never thought once about it consciously though.

 

[Shroud]

What if I told you that the incoming ball also had something to do with the equation?

I don't think TW is ready for the fact that playing against Nadal requires a different racquet face angle than playing Larry the plumber in your Wednesday 3.0 league.

J

To the Larrys of the world here is a compilation of their serves, what racquet face angle do we need:

 

[Chas Tennis]

Nobody seems to get this. Open and closed relative to ground is meaningless. One can hit topspin even if the racquet is open relative to the ground, if the path is steep enough.

I was describing top spin drives that are being done in the ATP currently.

My use of the word "closed" is relative to the direction of gravity. The lines showing the racket face are closed for top spin drives as TennisSpeed shows them. That is because of the direction of gravity and the need to have the ball drop in with top spin - the most widely used technique in the ATP. Another way to say it is that the highest racket edge in most forward along the ball's trajectory.

If the racket is not so tilted and the path is flater it is called 'hitting flat' and has more pace and higher risk of going out. See Robin Solderling forehands. Top Spin vs Flat = what % ?

Watch on Youtube - Solderling is known for hard flatter shots. Most racket tilts have much less racket face tilts then in the OP. There are a few with some closed tilts.

Use the period & comma keys to single frame on Youtube.

Tennis terms are often undefined in usage, so it is best to say what your usage is. I'm never sure what people mean when they say "open" when discussing tennis.

 

[J011yroger]

I was describing top spin drives that are being done in the ATP currently.

My use of the word "closed" is relative to the direction of gravity. The lines showing the racket face are closed for top spin drives as TennisSpeed shows them. That is because of the direction of gravity and the need to have the ball drop in with top spin - the most widely used technique in the ATP. Another way to say it is that the highest racket edge in most forward along the ball's trajectory.

If the racket is not so tilted and the path is flater it is called 'hitting flat' and has more pace and higher risk of going out. See Robin Solderling forehands. Top Spin vs Flat = what % ?

Tennis terms are often undefined in usage, so it is best to say what your usage is. I'm never am sure what people mean when they say "open" when discussing tennis.

Do you study formula 1 pit stops frame by frame in slow motion in order to learn how to service your 2008 Toyota Sienna?

J

 

[Dragy]

yep. This study was cited in TLMs thread about flattening out the ball where it was argued that the racquet was vertical at contact. This study was given as proof. Then I saw it here and figured it was good to point out that a closed racquet face is one of the components of topspin.

Said another way, not everyone is as educated as you Dragy. You would benefit from remembering how advanced you are when slumming on TT.

Some flattery never hurts, thanks pal!

I was first of all questioning the fact that OP didn’t put any thesis neither an idea or suggestion in the original post. Just some out of context pics. Are they self-explanatory and enough? Well I get the message because I know what @Chas Tennis likes to talk about. But to start a thread one needs a point or a question, in my belief. Not that I’m authorized to ban any type of thread opening, but still

 

[Chas Tennis]

The closed racket face with the most forward edge being highest is one simplification. The are other 3D possibilities.

Rafa Nadal hit shots with a racket path and racket face tilt that caused the ball to have top spin plus side spin and curved in with sidespin component (plus some unknown gyrospin). It dropped in with effect of top spin component.

See 2:25 close up for the racket path on one of these shots that curved back into the court. Instructor Geoge taught our group lesson to hit these. Was the racket path at roughly 45 degrees as it cut up and across the back of the ball? The racket path and tilt on the racket face had a 3D nature for this shot. It was not simply closed but the farthest edge forward on the trajectory was not at the top, but down some. 3D

Go full screen and look for close-ups of how the racket moves across the ball. To single frame on Youtube, use the period & comma keys.

 

[Dragy]

Good point, not sure. The "closed" just happens naturally without thought, for me at least based on video. I've never thought once about it consciously though.

I thought about saying how it could be vertical or even open vs ground and still produce strong topspin shot, in particular situations like low falling ball from far back… And from that perspective it’s really not relevant, you don’t look at yourself from the side view to adjust your swing, you do it by feel.

But if you look at ATP players with modern equipment, they really mostly have RF closed and high RHS. More so hitting higher balls and from closer up.

So it’s kind of “yes it is most frequently slightly closed”. “Sometimes it’s not”. “Topspin is based on RF being closed vs the swingpath, not the ground” and “sometimes the ball trajectory before impact if very significant”. Okay, so what? You need to swing low-to-high at least slightly on most balls, you need to adjust RF angle based on feel and outcome and learn the correct way that gives you good shot. Feel-wise, you may perceive it as if RF is 45 degree closed or as if it’s flat-open. The outcome ball must be good, that’s it.

More interesting topic is “What to do to have RF more closed, more consistently closed”:

- Manipulate your wrist?
- Change your grip?
- Execute ISR with proper timing?
- Lean forward with whole body and avoid leaning backward?

No, we don’t ask it. We look at pictures from the side.

 

[Dragy]

The closed racket face with the highest edge beng is a simplification.

Rafa Nadal hit shots with a racket path and racket face tilt that caused the ball to have top spin plus side spin (plus some unknown gyrospin). It dropped in with top spin component and curved in with sidespin component.

See 2:25 close up for the racket path on one of these shots that curved back into the court. Instructor Geoge taught our group lesson to hit these. Was the racket path at roughly 45 degrees as it cut up and across the back of the ball? The racket path and tilt on the racket face had a 3D nature for this shot. It was not simply closed but the farthest edge forward on the trajectory was not at the top, but down some. 3D

Go full screen and look for close-ups of how the racket moves across the ball. To single frame on Youtube, use the period & comma keys.

Congrats on discovering diagonal spin! Apart from banana “draw” spin you can find “fade” spin, mainly on higher balls driven hard and on I/O shots.

 

[Curious]

You need to swing low-to-high at least slightly on most balls, you need to adjust RF angle based on feel and outcome and learn the correct way that gives you good shot.

This should end the thread but I know it won’t.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The point was that TennisSpeed has some excellent studies of the ATP players that display racket tilt in a crystal clear manner. Maybe it's the best information on the internet? The ol' regulars here have heard it all before but many more on the forum today may not know it at all. Others might suddenly realize, as I once did, that the racket face has a significant tilt in the ATP for top spin drives - its most popular single shot in 2024. Average Joe can get the same information from his or her camera.

When posters say 'I am having control problems' first thing to do is to get a high speed video of your ground strokes from the side camera view. Look for a difference and see that you don't have the TennisSpeed tilt - fix it.

 

[J011yroger]

The closed racket face with the highest edge being highest is one simplification.

Rafa Nadal hit shots with a racket path and racket face tilt that caused the ball to have top spin plus side spin and curved in with sidespin component (plus some unknown gyrospin). It dropped in with effect of top spin component.

See 2:25 close up for the racket path on one of these shots that curved back into the court. Instructor Geoge taught our group lesson to hit these. Was the racket path at roughly 45 degrees as it cut up and across the back of the ball? The racket path and tilt on the racket face had a 3D nature for this shot. It was not simply closed but the farthest edge forward on the trajectory was not at the top, but down some. 3D

Go full screen and look for close-ups of how the racket moves across the ball. To single frame on Youtube, use the period & comma keys.

Wait! Let's hear more about instructor George.

J

 

[Chas Tennis]

Congrats on discovering diagonal spin! Apart from banana “draw” spin you can find “fade” spin, mainly on higher balls driven hard and on I/O shots.

Instructor George taught us Nadal's banana spin 20 years ago.

I did not create the strokes of the ATP. My approach is to observe what is being done in 2024 ATP. And then see how this ATP world is being communicated to average motivated players like the forum readers. We are in the 2024 Tennis Stroke Nuthouse.

Besides, noticing ATP sub-motions is addictive. It's very much like fishing, only what comes up on your line is much more interesting. Try it.

It's the Information Age and I'm glad that I lived to be here.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Wait! Let's hear more about instructor George.

J

George was a promising junior that injured his shoulder in his teens. I met him in his forties. He was the head instructor in a club of indoor courts. He had little to say about the serve for his group classes. I have posted on some of his instructions.

For example, my ball watching was bad and so he took the class through a few weeks of ball watching when I joined the group. He had a drill where you were to watch the ball and hit it back and keep your eye on the ball as Federer does. If you saw the ball bounce, you failed that drill. It eventually worked for me and I saw the ball the best in my life for a considerable time. It also left me with some tests. If I hit a bad shot or was having a bad day, I would ask myself how did that last ball look? If I drew a blank, it was because I was not looking at the ball. On the other hand, if I hit a very good shot, I often could remember what the incoming ball looked like. That test helped me diagnose my bad ball watching quickly.

 

[Dragy]

Besides, noticing ATP sub-motions is addictive. It's very much like fishing, only what comes up on your line is much more interesting. Try it.

So have you “caught” the fish of fade shots with diagonal spin, and what players do to produce them? Or is it still swimming somewhere on the deeps?

 

[Chas Tennis]

So have you “caught” the fish of fade shots with diagonal spin, and what players do to produce them? Or is it still swimming somewhere on the deeps?

I don't have a good video of Nadal's banana shot. I stopped at the one Nadal close up video, maybe later in the video is a better one. ? Otherwise, that might be a very time consuming search. Interesting though.

If you are interested in those rare tennis shots, go fishing.

I'm only interested is the most common ATP shots, and where sub-motions are so easy to find, pratically in every video. Sub-Motion Gold Rush...2024...!

For example, I looked at many, many serve videos over the last 13 years, but entirely missed this most important sub-motion, now new to me. Did you read the tossing arm 'inversion' posts well known to Sabalenka's serve coach, Gavin Mac Millan? Not only that but there was a widely known view of athletic motions under the name of Spinal Engine Theory. WOW! I missed it for years, something like ISR was missed by tennis researchers. But Spinal Engine (SE) is more complicated than simply videoing an arm rotating to understand it. And when you read about SE, it is much more difficult to understand. And it is more difficult than simply videoing the abdomen to get answers. I'm trying to find a good written source for Spinal Engine Theory applied to the tennis serve. We are closing in on the serve.

 

[Dragy]

I'm only interested is the most common ATP shots and they are easy to find, pratically in every high speed video.

Power fade shot with curving ball trajectory is very common in the ATP.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Power fade shot with curving ball trajectory is very common in the ATP.

Are there videos that show it? Are the sub-motions known to any tennis players? To anyone?

See the OP for the most used shots in ATP & WTA tennis. One picture.

 

[Dragy]

Are there videos that show it? Are the sub-motions known to any tennis players? To anyone?

See the OP for the most used shots in ATP & WTA tennis. One picture.

Of course there are, check any French Open rally with inside-out hitting and you get a lot.

There are no single “most used shot” in ATP or WTA. From the baseline, they use a variety of shots dependent on the incoming ball and intention. And it’s very important for a player to learn distinct variations to use in play.

 

[Chas Tennis]

For my purposes, the top spin drives for the forehand and backhand are the most used tennis strokes in the ATP & WTA. Of course, some stroke technique is always the "most used".

 

[Dragy]

the top spin drives for the forehand and backhand are the most used tennis strokes in the ATP & WTA.

Yes, but "topspin drives for the forehand" is a group of shots with distinct variations in execution.

 

[Chas Tennis]

My point is that most top spin drives look like this regarding the closed tilt of the racket face.

 

[ratherlosethanpush]

Are there videos that show it? Are the sub-motions known to any tennis players? To anyone?

See the OP for the most used shots in ATP & WTA tennis. One picture.

It's very common

Basically if the balls higher u don't need as much up to clear the net.

So they basically take it later in the swing where the balls taken a little closer to the player (horizontal sense) and the rackets moving across at this point which creates the left to right curve.

As u r needing less spin to lift the ball (its higher) more energy goes into the horizontal velocity component so ball speed is often up.

Any of the court view videos show it well

 

[Dragy]

My point is that most top spin drives look like this regarding the closed tilt of the racket face.

That’s fair point. Especially if you neglect the red lines which are there because of off-center hit.

In the meantime, there’s lots of room for green line to be more vertical or sometimes even more closed. It’s variation learned by feel and experience.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Do-It-Yourself Stats -
Estimates of Racket Tilt at Impact

Some of these videos are lower frame rates as can be seen from how far the incoming ball travels between frames before it is struck. To make sure you do not estimate racket tilt AFTER impacts, track the ball coming in. The ball moves the same distance between frames BEFORE it is struck. We want the racket tilt frame BEFORE impact and closest to the racket only.

AFTER impact the racket face may have been turned by the collision.

Examples, what to record
Rublev 4:35 Closed
Federer 5:11 Neutral (not much open or closed)
Alcarez 3:33 Open
...............

Pick players randomly or every 3rd player, etc. to get to 10 different random players, good camera angle to see tilt, and identify player and give the Youtube times shown at impact.

Forehand Drive Compilation, avoid motion blur that might matter to tilt estimate.

To single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys. Go full screen. Single frame for estimates.

Playback speed option 0.25x is good to watch especially for the slowest motion videos.

Post your results or not. Try to determine what is true about the tilt on the racket face at impact for the best ATP players.

 

[optic yellow]

Instructor George taught us Nadal's banana spin 20 years ago.

I did not create the strokes of the ATP. My approach is to observe what is being done in 2024 ATP. And then see how this ATP world is being communicated to average motivated players like the forum readers. We are in the 2024 Tennis Stroke Nuthouse.

Besides, noticing ATP sub-motions is addictive. It's very much like fishing, only what comes up on your line is much more interesting. Try it.

It's the Information Age and I'm glad that I lived to be here.

I taught myself Nadal's bananas spin digging at low balls using my golf swing instincts.

 

[Smecz]

The closed racket face can be observed from the side camera view. TennisSpeed has some of the best displays of the closed racket face tilt on the internet.

TennisSpeed Research: May 2011

tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com

Somewhere TennisSpeed has a short video of their technique for applying the lines. Please post if you find.

The video analysis application Kinovea can apply these lines to videos. Kinovea has many capabilities and is a free, open source application. Applying a millisecond time to each frame is my favorite Kinovea capability.

TennisSpeed application to Djokovic & Federer. Late in this article the racket face tilts are shown.

TennisSpeed Research

tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com

The closed racket face can be observed from the side camera view. TennisSpeed has some of the best displays of the closed racket face tilt on the internet.

TennisSpeed Research: May 2011

tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com

Somewhere TennisSpeed has a short video of their technique for applying the lines. Please post if you find.

The video analysis application Kinovea can apply these lines to videos. Kinovea has many capabilities and is a free, open source application. Applying a millisecond time to each frame is my favorite Kinovea capability.

TennisSpeed application to Djokovic & Federer. Late in this article the racket face tilts are shown.

TennisSpeed Research

tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com

From what I know, this is the result of having loose wrists, and the second thing is that the head of the racket is placed towards the court, which allows the racket to close faster because there is no air resistance...

Top spin shots are mainly about head rotation and speed. If the head of the racket is at the beginning of the hit down to the court and at the end the same, and only at the moment of contact straight to the net, I have a great chance to accelerate the head as much as possible...

A slight curvature of the head will help with the top spin, and then finish hitting the head down the court!

And the last thing is that the more you control the head of the racket, the worse it is - the head must be inert like Nadal's.!!

Since it allows the head to be more inert, it spins like crazy, and previously I forced the game to rotate using the wiper method... ehh

 

[Chas Tennis]

From what I know, this is the result of having loose wrists, and the second thing is that the head of the racket is placed towards the court, which allows the racket to close faster because there is no air resistance...

Top spin shots are mainly about head rotation and speed. If the head of the racket is at the beginning of the hit down to the court and at the end the same, and only at the moment of contact straight to the net, I have a great chance to accelerate the head as much as possible...

A slight curvature of the head will help with the top spin, and then finish hitting the head down the court!

And the last thing is that the more you control the head of the racket, the worse it is - the head must be inert like Nadal's.!!

Since it allows the head to be more inert, it spins like crazy, and previously I forced the game to rotate using the wiper method... ehh

My point is, that is what is seen often in ATP drives. My opinion is that the closed tilt tends to result in the ball's trajectory being more down. No references at the moment.

Do you have some references for your additional points of view?

 

[Smecz]

My point is, that is what is seen often in ATP drives. My opinion is that the closed tilt tends to result in the ball's trajectory being more down. No references at the moment.

Do you have some references for your additional points of view?

I see,Yes, the trajectory of the racket is similar to the rotation of the ball, and it goes towards it.

But it's also dangerous because it's easier to hit the ball wrong...

I was once taught to cover the ball haha, but you have to hit it clean first and then cover it...

I started playing badly and hitting the ball and missing, so the fact that my wrist is loose allows me to slightly cover the ball, which is better than covering the ball...

 

[optic yellow]

My point is, that is what is seen often in ATP drives. My opinion is that the closed tilt tends to result in the ball's trajectory being more down. No references at the moment.

Do you have some references for your additional points of view?

What are you trying to say? The insight that the racquet face point more downward makes the launch angle lower seems trivial?

 

[Fintft]

Good point, not sure. The "closed" just happens naturally without thought, for me at least based on video. I've never thought once about it consciously though.

And @Chas Tennis Just last evening one of my coaches told me to close the racquet more on both wings, first on my 1HBH and then on my Eastern FH. I was hitting lights out( past TE) and at times, missing long.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I think the logic of the racket closed tilt is
1) The ATP & WTA players are choosing to do it for most drives.
2) Speculating - When the racket face is tilted closed, the first touch of the ball on the strings must be on the top half of the ball. That one factor would have a tendency to direct the ball down. These top spin drives are often used for hard drives where the upward path of the racket is working on a squished ball cupped in distorted strings. @JohnYandell always says the ball does not roll on the strings under these conditions. The racket path and collision would tend to give the ball some upward velocity. The closed tilt racket face compensates for the upward racket path used for heavy pace and top spin.

I use 'first touch' because after impact, the racket is spinning from off centerline hits in an unknown way. And first touch has a defined spot on the ball that a squishing ball doesn't have.

Consider an experiment if you were to vary the closed tilt angle on the racket face from 0 to 5 to 10, 20, 30 degrees and keep the same racket top spin path, as @Fintft did. What effect would those angles have on the ball's trajectory? I think the ball trajectory would go lower and lower. Try it.

Also, off racket centerline errors at impact, that tilt the racket face, might cause trajectory high-low errors.

Sideline Returns- When one is receiving a ball with a trajectory headed out the sideline of the court, I learned that I had to hit on the outer side of the ball to bring my return back into the court. First racket touch was somewhat on the side of the ball, not its backmost spot. The back would have had the wrong first touch and my return would have more likely been out. The racket shaft angle in this case affects where first touch is. I was certainly consciously aware of where my racket first touch should be when learning that. I still say it to myself when running to the wide balls. I pictured touch on the right side for my right handed forehand. Exactly where is learned and the racket shaft angle in azmuth is closely associated with where first touch is. Take ball and racket in hand and see how racket shaft angle simply determines first touch spot on the ball.

SEARCHTILTRACKET

 

[optic yellow]

I think the logic of the racket closed tilt is
1) The ATP & WTA players are choosing to do it for most drives.
2) Speculating - When the racket face is tilted closed, the first touch of the ball on the strings must be on the top half of the ball. That one factor would have a tendency to direct the ball down. These top spin drives are often used for hard drives where the upward path of the racket working on a squished ball cupped in distorted strings. @John Yandell always says the ball does not roll on the strings under those conditions. The racket path and collision would tend to give the ball some upward velocity. The closed tilt racket face compensates for the upward racket path used for heavy pace and top spin.

I use 'first touch' because after impact, the racket is spinning from off centerline hits and is unknown. And first touch has a defined spot on the ball that a squished ball doesn't have.

Consider an experiment if you were to vary the closed tilt angle on the racket face from 0 to 5 to 10, 20, 30 degrees and keep the same racket top spin path, as @Fintft did. What effect would those angles have on the ball's trajectory. I think the ball trajectory would go lower and lower. Try it.

Also, off racket centerline errors at impact, that tilt the racket face, might cause trajectory high-low errors.

Sideline Returns- When one is receiving a ball with a trajectory headed out the sideline of the court, I learned that I had to hit on the outer side of the ball to bring my return back into the court. First racket touch was somewhat on the side of the ball, not its backmost spot. The back would have had the wrong first touch and my return would have more likely been out. The racket shaft angle in this case affects where first touch is. I was certainly conscioulsy aware of where my racket first touch should be when learning that. I still say it to myself when running to the ball. I pictured touch on the right side for my right handed forehand. Exactly where is learned and the racket shaft angle in azmuth is closely associated with where first touch is. Take ball and racket in hand and see how racket shaft angle simply determines first touch on the ball.

SEARCHTILTRACKET

Basically you are just trying to figure out what determines launch angle and you know it is a function of i) where the smoothed face orthogonal vector is pointing and ii) the various details of the individual string geometry. It is probably useful to start by thinking about how a certain swing path specifically affects that second component. Since you love analysing video evidence high frame rate footage of a racquet making contact with a ball would be an obvious first resource to consult.

 

[Morch Us]

I don't think TW is ready for the fact that playing against Nadal requires a different racquet face angle than playing Larry the plumber in your Wednesday 3.0 league.

Right on money

But I am pretty sure many can relate this to ping-pong. What is the first thing you do when the ping-pong ball flies out of your paddle, because of the spin from the asian guy on the otherside?

Plus the more important factors are not the angle to the ground but
1. path of the incoming ball towards your contact (ball rising steep on your vs ball falling after its peak). Or in otherwise the racquet face angle with respect to the ball path.
2. path of the racquet (how steep you are swinging, how fast are you swinging, how through are you swinging)
3. incoming ball spin

 

[Morch Us]

I want this on my fh and bh. But when I’ve videoed myself, I only see it in a minority of swings. I want it more without driving the ball into the net.

I don't think you have to worry too much about how the racquet face angle is with respect to pro strokes after contact. It will happen naturally as you improve and deal with different quality shots.

Of course if you are hitting an incoming backspinning ball falling from its peak with 45 degree closed racquet face with respect to ground, with a relatively slow shallow swing.... the ball is going straight down to ground.