The current top 5: Is it the oldest ever?

Backspin1183

Backspin1183

Talk Tennis Guru
The current top 5 on the men's tour:

1. Andy Murray (29), 30 next month.
2. Novak Djokovic (29), 30 next month.
3. Stanislas Wawrinka (32).
4. Roger Federer (35), will be 36 in August.
5. Rafael Nadal (30), will be 31 in June.
 
Backspin1183 said:
The current top 5 on the men's tour:

1. Andy Murray (29), 30 next month.
2. Novak Djokovic (29), 30 next month.
3. Stanislas Wawrinka (32).
4. Roger Federer (35), will be 36 in August.
5. Rafael Nadal (30), will be 31 in June.
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OTTH I'd have to say no! Players held onto top form longer in past generations; Rosewall playing into his 40's, Laver, Ashe, & others playing well into their 30's! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
Since the ATP began rankings in 1973, this is almost certainly the oldest top 5. Before that there were unofficial rankings, but I suspect this top 5 may even top those lists as well in terms of age. Don't forget there has almost always been somebody between the age of 18 to 22 breaking into the top echelon at least every 5 years for almost the last 70 years. Everyone talks about how great rosewall was when he was old. Guess what, he was a top 5 player when he was 20 as well. Guys like vines, trabert, hoad, perry, pancho and many more from so many eras were all top players in their early 20s. Looking through all the rankings I've seen, the last time there were close to five thirty year olds in the top 5 was in the 1920s. Let's hope for berdych, tsonga, Monfils etc to have great years, maybe there will be a top 10 filled with almost all 30 year olds by years end. I think that would make it older than many of the fields courier had when he started the champions tour.
 
Per hops website, the previous high for the age of the top 5 was in April of 74. The average age was 29.9, which was skewed a bit by 39 year old Rosewall.
Anyone care to guess the youngest top 5 in the open era? The ages of the players were 21, 26, 20, 20, 20.

I wonder why the ATP isn't touting the fact that this is the oldest top five in their history. Thought they loved records over there. Would anyone like to tweet Brad Gilbert this info? Curious to see those guys talk about this on air.
 
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tennis08tarheels said:
For a lot of 2008, there wasn't a single player in the top 25 in his 30s.
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Roger was looking a little haggard and I thought he was just about done! He salvaged his '08 season by winning the USO! When was the last time an ATG was thought to have saved his season with 1 major? That loss on grass to Rafa was very disconcerting since I've never been a fan of The BULL! Nole had started taking Masters and his 1st major so I thought the next wave was here with the addition of Murray! It just alternated among the 4 for the next decade! Will the next generation ever be allowed to take over! It doesn't look like it, allowing Gramps to take a major and the 1st 2 Masters as if he's in Nole's prime! Sad; truly sad! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
Moose Malloy said:
@Fiero425
After Sampras won the USO in 96, he said it saved his season.
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Funny I always thought in '96, Sampras was at the height of his powers; getting to the semi of Paris taking out 2 past 2X champions (Bruguera & Courier)! He then won the YEC in the final over Becker! His upset by Krajicek at Wimbledon shouldn't have been a surprise! Richard just had Pete's # at times on fast courts with that big serve of his! Pete had won 3 Wimbl's in a row and the run had to stop sooner or later! Comp. was tough around then! Sampras just continued his winning ways by taking '97 AO! I have to check, but I believe he took Grand Slam Cup and YE Chps that season! Who does that? :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
Moose Malloy said:
Since the ATP began rankings in 1973, this is almost certainly the oldest top 5. Before that there were unofficial rankings, but I suspect this top 5 may even top those lists as well in terms of age. Don't forget there has almost always been somebody between the age of 18 to 22 breaking into the top echelon at least every 5 years for almost the last 70 years. Everyone talks about how great rosewall was when he was old. Guess what, he was a top 5 player when he was 20 as well. Guys like vines, trabert, hoad, perry, pancho and many more from so many eras were all top players in their early 20s. Looking through all the rankings I've seen, the last time there were close to five thirty year olds in the top 5 was in the 1920s. Let's hope for berdych, tsonga, Monfils etc to have great years, maybe there will be a top 10 filled with almost all 30 year olds by years end. I think that would make it older than many of the fields courier had when he started the champions tour.
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Isn't that also the case for the present top 5 (with the possible exception of Wawrinka)?
 
^the point I was trying to make is there's pretty much always been a relatively young player in the top 5, even when the other top players were older. Or a few young players knocking on the door of the top 5. Now we just have thiem, who at 23 seems a bit behind schedule compared to so many before him.
 
Moose Malloy said:
Per hops website, the previous high for the age of the top 5 was in April of 74. The average age was 29.9, which was skewed a bit by 39 year old Rosewall.
Anyone care to guess the youngest top 5 in the open era? The ages of the players were 21, 26, 20, 20, 20.

I wonder why the ATP isn't touting the fact that this is the oldest top five in their history. Thought they loved records over there. Would anyone like to tweet Brad Gilbert this info? Curious to see those guys talk about this on air.
Click to expand...

Why exactly would they do that? Gilbert and co. are selling a product, their main purpose is to use their tennis authority to promote and hype the current game under the guise of expert analysis. You shouldn't seriously expect them to acknowledge one of the biggest young talent droughts in the history of the game (not that ATGs grow on trees but current under-25 players are decidedly inferior to Courier, Chang, Roddick, Hewitt, Safin etc. caliber of player that started challenging aging greats right off the bat), it conflicts with the main narrative they're peddling.

Until the big 4 step down the media heads are gonna be adamant about how they're the best players that ever lived (Murray included somehow) which is why no young talent is breaking through and afterwards when the field becomes a crap shoot we're gonna have "incredible depth" (unless one of the young players steps up and becomes a dominator).
 
zagor said:
Why exactly would they do that? Gilbert and co. are selling a product, their main purpose is to use their tennis authority to promote and hype the current game under the guise of expert analysis. You shouldn't seriously expect them to acknowledge one of the biggest young talent droughts in the history of the game (not that ATGs grow on trees but current under-25 players are decidedly inferior to Courier, Chang, Roddick, Hewitt, Safin etc. caliber of player that started challenging aging greats right off the bat), it conflicts with the main narrative they're peddling.

Until the big 4 step down the media heads are gonna be adamant about how they're the best players that ever lived (Murray included somehow) which is why no young talent is breaking through and afterwards when the field becomes a crap shoot we're gonna have "incredible depth" (unless one of the young players steps up and becomes a dominator).
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That WTA incredibe depth lol.
 
The magical month has arrived. In less than three weeks' time, the top five will be officially comprised of all 30-somethings!

While not nearly as frightening as climate change, it is more than a little disconcerting for professional tennis. Only in 2017!
 
FedFosterWallace said:
The magical month has arrived. In less than three weeks' time, the top five will be officially comprised of all 30-somethings!

While not nearly as frightening as climate change, it is more than a little disconcerting for professional tennis. Only in 2017!
Click to expand...

I've been railing about the need for a changing of the guard for ages, but it just keeps getting pushed back every year! It's almost embarrassing because the elites are not just older, it's the same players year after year; trading off being #1 periodically! It says something about how good the "Big 4" have been, but it also shows how gutless the "also rans" have been for a while now! Every time you think there's the next great Phenom about to make a name for himself, it's a faux challenge; either psychologically or just plain brittle-boned and can't stay on the court more than a few weeks before breaking down! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
Fiero425 said:
I've been railing about the need for a changing of the guard for ages, but it just keeps getting pushed back every year! It's almost embarrassing because the elites are not just older, it's the same players year after year; trading off being #1 periodically! It says something about how good the "Big 4" have been, but it also shows how gutless the "also rans" have been for a while now! Every time you think there's the next great Phenom about to make a name for himself, it's a faux challenge; either psychologically or just plain brittle-boned and can't stay on the court more than a few weeks before breaking down! :rolleyes: :p ;)
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Well said. It's too weird. At this point, there's little more that can be said, I feel.

ATP had to create a tourney to celebrate its young stars, as they can't compete with the decrepit guard. I mean, tennis won't retire when they all do, but... anyway, the retirement tours might make more bank than the ATP.
 
FedFosterWallace said:
Well said. It's too weird. At this point, there's little more that can be said, I feel.

ATP had to create a tourney to celebrate its young stars, as they can't compete with the decrepit guard. I mean, tennis won't retire when they all do, but... anyway, the retirement tours might make more bank than the ATP.
Click to expand...

Being from the old 70's "old guard," I probably would've watched a senior tour of BJK, Goolagong, Wade, Stove, Durr, Court, Casals, & Evert! I'm sure they tried, but it just didn't get much TV coverage and died! One of the most memorable periods in tennis was the advent of World Team Tennis! It was actually bigger than some tour events! I still remember an All-Star event; maybe in '76! The teams were composed of most of the best players in the world and it didn't disappoint! Goolagong didn't have much trouble beating Evert on those fast indoor courts, but being TEAM Tennis, the other team still had a chance! It came down to women doubles IIRC! Dianne Fromholtz & Betty Stove were behind Wade & Navratilova! To get to a Super TB, Stove/Fromholtz had to not only win their match, but had to continue winning games to tie Wade/Navr.! They were successful and Fromholtz was replaced by Evert! The other team was totally taken over by BJK and Goolagong! Evert and the West came all the way back to win the Super TB 5-4! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
Fiero425 said:
Being from the old 70's "old guard," I probably would've watched a senior tour of BJK, Goolagong, Wade, Stove, Durr, Court, Casals, & Evert! I'm sure they tried, but it just didn't get much TV coverage and died! One of the most memorable periods in tennis was the advent of World Team Tennis! It was actually bigger than some tour events! I still remember an All-Star event; maybe in '76! The teams were composed of most of the best players in the world and it didn't disappoint! Goolagong didn't have much trouble beating Evert on those fast indoor courts, but being TEAM Tennis, the other team still had a chance! It came down to women doubles IIRC! Dianne Fromholtz & Betty Stove were behind Wade & Navratilova! To get to a Super TB, Stove/Fromholtz had to not only win their match, but had to continue winning games to tie Wade/Navr.! They were successful and Fromholtz was replaced by Evert! The other team was totally taken over by BJK and Goolagong! Evert and the West came all the way back to win the Super TB 5-4! :rolleyes: :p ;)
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Nice history there.

I'm not sure what'll happen with the current pro alignment. Figure something's gotta give, though, right? I don't know whether it's too entrenched at this point, or what. I wouldn't be surprised to see some splinter "factions." Fed with his clout could probably spearhead it. So much irony, though, if it took the ATP's savior to save it again by dividing it.
 
Yes. You go by median age, not average.

If you're thinking early 70s, you'd be kind of right with Laver at 31 and Rosewall a year older but guys like Newcombe, Roche and Ashe were in their mid 20s.
 
Adv. Edberg said:
The result of all this, when Fedal retires, will eventually be that they're gonna dumb down tennis. Like each set ending at 4 games instead of 6 and no advantage, maybe dropping the 2nd serve.
Click to expand...

To cut these ridiculous matches down; something's gotta be done! Right now it's just about unwatchable for the most part; both men and women's game! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
Fiero425 said:
To cut these ridiculous matches down; something's gotta be done! Right now it's just about unwatchable for the most part; both men and women's game! :rolleyes: :p ;)
Click to expand...

Yeah but the ITF has painted themselves into a corner by creating Fedal. When they retire they're gonna leave a big hole and the audience will shrink. And to combat the shrinking audience they will start dumbing down tennis in a desperate move to regain the interest.
 
Rogerjohnson81 said:
The thing about Wawrinka is he has a lot less mileage than the other four so even though he is going to be 32 he is younger in tennis years. For all the grinding and effort Murray has the same amount of slams as Wawrinka but with much ware and tare. In the tennis world the No. 1, WTF and masters puts him ahead considerably but to the rest of the world they are pretty equal except in the U.K.
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Do you think Stan can stay top 5 (or even nab a #1 for a while) as the older ones get more mileage compared to him?
 
Moose Malloy said:
Since the ATP began rankings in 1973, this is almost certainly the oldest top 5. Before that there were unofficial rankings, but I suspect this top 5 may even top those lists as well in terms of age. Don't forget there has almost always been somebody between the age of 18 to 22 breaking into the top echelon at least every 5 years for almost the last 70 years. Everyone talks about how great rosewall was when he was old. Guess what, he was a top 5 player when he was 20 as well. Guys like vines, trabert, hoad, perry, pancho and many more from so many eras were all top players in their early 20s. Looking through all the rankings I've seen, the last time there were close to five thirty year olds in the top 5 was in the 1920s. Let's hope for berdych, tsonga, Monfils etc to have great years, maybe there will be a top 10 filled with almost all 30 year olds by years end. I think that would make it older than many of the fields courier had when he started the champions tour.
Click to expand...
Fiero425 said:
Being from the old 70's "old guard," I probably would've watched a senior tour of BJK, Goolagong, Wade, Stove, Durr, Court, Casals, & Evert! I'm sure they tried, but it just didn't get much TV coverage and died! One of the most memorable periods in tennis was the advent of World Team Tennis! It was actually bigger than some tour events! I still remember an All-Star event; maybe in '76! The teams were composed of most of the best players in the world and it didn't disappoint! Goolagong didn't have much trouble beating Evert on those fast indoor courts, but being TEAM Tennis, the other team still had a chance! It came down to women doubles IIRC! Dianne Fromholtz & Betty Stove were behind Wade & Navratilova! To get to a Super TB, Stove/Fromholtz had to not only win their match, but had to continue winning games to tie Wade/Navr.! They were successful and Fromholtz was replaced by Evert! The other team was totally taken over by BJK and Goolagong! Evert and the West came all the way back to win the Super TB 5-4! :rolleyes: :p ;)
Click to expand...
I suppose the players won more money playing WTT, but IMO, WTT was and is a joke. Also, it robbed players like Evert of winning more FO titles. Also, other serious tournaments were denied some top players.
 
thrust said:
I suppose the players won more money playing WTT, but IMO, WTT was and is a joke. Also, it robbed players like Evert of winning more FO titles. Also, other serious tournaments were denied some top players.
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Robbed? Did they need the money grab? Weren't her endorsements enough! If she lost time in tournaments, it's all on her, her family, & the management group! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
FedFosterWallace said:
Well said. It's too weird. At this point, there's little more that can be said, I feel.

ATP had to create a tourney to celebrate its young stars, as they can't compete with the decrepit guard. I mean, tennis won't retire when they all do, but... anyway, the retirement tours might make more bank than the ATP.
Click to expand...
One of the dumbest posts ever! If the young stars can't compete with the decrepit or older guard, then it is the young guns who are decrepit. Nadal, Federer, Djokovic and even Murray are exceptional athletes and tennis players. The same was true of Gonzalez, Rosewall, Laver, Tilden, Ashe, Connors, Agassi, Sampras and others who were top players past 30
 
thrust said:
One of the dumbest posts ever! If the young stars can't compete with the decrepit or older guard, then it is the young guns who are decrepit. Nadal, Federer, Djokovic and even Murray are exceptional athletes and tennis players. The same was true of Gonzalez, Rosewall, Laver, Tilden, Ashe, Connors, Agassi, Sampras and others who were top players past 30
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Say what? It's extremely disheartening that no one steps up, time and again. If it weren't already clear, I'm one of the biggest Federer fans around. Father Time never loses, even though Fed is giving him the fight of his life. There will be replacements. It's just bizarre that it's taking this long. Would've been nice if the next champs had filtered their way in. It's beginning to look like it may take the form of a mass swap.

Not really sure what your point is, actually. By comparison with their elders, the young talents of the ATP are inept.
 
thrust said:
One of the dumbest posts ever! If the young stars can't compete with the decrepit or older guard, then it is the young guns who are decrepit. Nadal, Federer, Djokovic and even Murray are exceptional athletes and tennis players. The same was true of Gonzalez, Rosewall, Laver, Tilden, Ashe, Connors, Agassi, Sampras and others who were top players past 30
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They are decrepit relatively. None of the big 4 are in their prime. The difference with your listing of other great 30+ yo is younger guys were able to beat those great 30+ in big tournaments and sometimes win the whole thing. They certainly were able to do it by the time they reached 23+. The tier 2 guys in the Big 4's gens have done more than the top guys in the lost and mext gen.
 
FedFosterWallace said:
The magical month has arrived. In less than three weeks' time, the top five will be officially comprised of all 30-somethings!

While not nearly as frightening as climate change, it is more than a little disconcerting for professional tennis. Only in 2017!
Click to expand...

It underlines my old claim that top tennis does not increase from decade to decade.
 
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metsman said:
yup, and until they make tennis a more lucrative sport, that will not change.
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Not really sure how tennis is going to compete in that regard with the giant global leagues of team sports where every player on a given team (50-something in the NFL, for example) is guaranteed a cool mil per annum. Benchwarmers, kickers, you name it. Everyone gets paid handsomely.
 
We're officially there. Just read an article re post-30 achievements in the ATP, and the suggestion was that a simple reversal of fortune and a two-major-a-year a clip might bring Djokovic equal with Federer by age 33. The vacillations are wild in pro tennis writing. If nothing else, this all-tricenarian top 5 will serve as grist for the journalists' mill.
 
Merciful Mary. Tsonga wins his next match, and six (count' em: six) of the top 10 players are 30+. Madness. Ye Olde Berdman also waiting in the wings. ;)
 
Fiero425 said:
Which is why I use the term gutless for the "new" & "next" gens to allow old geezers to rule the rankings for so long! :rolleyes: :p ;)
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They're just of a lower caliber, almost uniformly... outgunned. It's because the talent pool has been stripmined, and a JV squad remains. Top's gotta age out at some point, though (sentiment reiterated annually since circa 2010).
 
BGod said:
Yes. You go by median age, not average.

If you're thinking early 70s, you'd be kind of right with Laver at 31 and Rosewall a year older but guys like Newcombe, Roche and Ashe were in their mid 20s.
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BGod, Rosewall was almost four years older than Laver (and still is...).
 
What will happen if the big 5 dominates until their 40s? Just like Rosewall?

It's unthinkable but very possible with this useless generation. We will have to see the same men everyday for 10 more years after having seen them 15 years.

It hurts my eyes. And my interest. What is big deal of records if it is inflated by meaningless competition?
 
NGM said:
What will happen if the big 5 dominates until their 40s? Just like Rosewall?

It's unthinkable but very possible with this useless generation. We will have to see the same men everyday for 10 more years after having seen them 15 years.

It hurts my eyes. And my interest. What is big deal of records if it is inflated by meaningless competition?
Click to expand...

NGM, Why meaningless competition? We should be glad to be able these giants of tennis a few years more.
 
BobbyOne said:
NGM, Why meaningless competition? We should be glad to be able these giants of tennis a few years more.
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I mean, if you have 1 ATG dominate till 40s, it's great because it shows that we are witnessing something special. But if we have 4 or 5 including 2 men whom not that special keep winning everything for 20 years, that's bad. That's too bad because it means the whole competition sucks.

The problem is we are discussing something we have been discussing so many years. Federer vs Nadal, Federer vs Djokovic, Djokovic vs Nadal... The same old same old. It was fun and it is still fun for some time.

But what will happen if we have to discuss the same thing for 10 more years?
 
NGM said:
I mean, if you have 1 ATG dominate till 40s, it's great because it shows that we are witnessing something special. But if we have 4 or 5 including 2 men whom not that special keep winning everything for 20 years, that's bad. That's too bad because it means the whole competition sucks.

The problem is we are discussing something we have been discussing so many years. Federer vs Nadal, Federer vs Djokovic, Djokovic vs Nadal... The same old same old. It was fun and it is still fun for some time.

But what will happen if we have to discuss the same thing for 10 more years?
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NGM, Don't worry, it will not last for another ten years. Nadal, Djokovic and even Federer are not Gonzalez or Rosewall...
 
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