The death of the Counter-Puncher in modern day tennis

[BallsforTennis]

Points Week Change Tourn Played
1 Djokovic, Novak (SRB) 13,130 1 18
2 Nadal, Rafael (ESP) 12,670 -1 20
3 Federer, Roger (SUI) 6,100 1 21
4 Wawrinka, Stan (SUI) 5,770 -1 21
5 Berdych, Tomas (CZE) 4,410 1 24
6 Raonic, Milos (CAN) 3,920 3 20
7 Ferrer, David (ESP) 3,875 0 24
8 Del Potro, Juan Martin (ARG) 3,360 0 19
9 Dimitrov, Grigor (BUL) 3,270 4 23
10 Murray, Andy (GBR) 3,040 -5 20
11 Nishikori, Kei (JPN) 2,780 1 21
12 Isner, John (USA) 2,735 -1 22
13 Gulbis, Ernests (LAT) 2,680 -3 25
14 Gasquet, Richard (FRA) 2,370 0 25
15 Fognini, Fabio (ITA) 2,235 0 27
16 Tsonga, Jo-Wilfried (FRA) 1,910 1 21
17 Anderson, Kevin (RSA) 1,835 1 24
18 Robredo, Tommy (ESP) 1,720 4 23
19 Dolgopolov, Alexandr (UKR) 1,680 0 29
20 Cilic, Marin (CRO) 1,665 9 22
21 Monfils, Gael (FRA) 1,660 0 24
22 Youzhny, Mikhail (RUS) 1,655 -6 26
23 Bautista Agut, Roberto (ESP) 1,625 0 25
24 Lopez, Feliciano (ESP) 1,545 2 27
25 Haas, Tommy (GER) 1,475 -5 24
26 Kohlschreiber, Philipp (GER) 1,475 2 29
27 Almagro, Nicolas (ESP) 1,360 0 24
28 Granollers, Marcel (ESP) 1,285 2 30
29 Verdasco, Fernando (ESP) 1,205 -5 24
30 Tursunov, Dmitry (RUS) 1,200 1 31
31 Karlovic, Ivo (CRO) 1,175 1 27
32 Garcia-Lopez, Guillermo (ESP) 1,163 2 26
33 Pospisil, Vasek (CAN) 1,135 0 27
34 Giraldo, Santiago (COL) 1,135 1 28
35 Chardy, Jeremy (FRA) 1,105 7 27
36 Simon, Gilles (FRA) 1,085 8 24
37 Stepanek, Radek (CZE) 1,085 1 23
38 Delbonis, Federico (ARG) 1,084 -1 24
39 Istomin, Denis (UZB) 1,065 6 28
40 Sousa, Joao (POR) 1,020 1 30
41 Berlocq, Carlos (ARG) 1,010 2 23
42 Lu, Yen-Hsun (TPE) 958 5 26
43 Hewitt, Lleyton (AUS) 950 5 20
44 Benneteau, Julien (FRA) 935 2 25
45 Seppi, Andreas (ITA) 935 -9 30
46 Roger-Vasselin, Edouard (FRA) 920 4 29
47 Mayer, Leonardo (ARG) 919 17 24
48 Rosol, Lukas (CZE) 900 4 33
49 Haase, Robin (NED) 900 4 29
50 Mayer, Florian (GER) 895 -10 23

I've bolded those whom I believe to be out and out counter-punchers. If you think I've missed any let me know.

Now. My question is this, why have out and out counter-punchers died? Ferrer used to be one and we now see him more up on the baseline dictating with the forehand.

I'm specifically referring to those players who's ethos is rarely ever to play on the front-foot and be aggressive. Nishikori and Murray, I completely know carry great counter-punching assets and use them on the odd occasion, but they have mainly an emphasis for attack also. So they aren't out and out counter-punchers.

Why is it too much effort and hard-work for counter-punchers to survive without having weapons these days?

- Is it to do with the strings getting even tougher and allowing for more power?
- Is it because there are less net-rushers in the game?
- Is it because the players coming through now a days are being taught to be less flat-out aggressive and instead to adopt more of healthy balance between attack and defense? Whilst using their weapons opportunistically?
- Are there just no counter-punching talent? Where are the days of the Michael Chang, Lleyton Hewitt, Fabrice Santoro etc.

I don't know. Is there room for surviving with just a counter-punching style in today's game? Some on here think Hewitt would attain a 1-3 ranking at some point during today's game. I'm struggling to figure out how and where the evidence is for this when you look at the lack of success there is for counter-punchers.

 

[Chico]

Nadal, Murray and Ferrer are counter-punchers.

 

[BallsforTennis]

Nadal, Murray and Ferrer are counter-punchers.

Ferrer is certainly not a counter-puncher and you didn't read the OP at all, did you? :roll:

'Out and out counter-punchers'

...Nadal is far from a counter-puncher btw, especially on clay.

 

[The-Champ]

Nadal, Murray and Ferrer are counter-punchers.

Djokovic is a counter-pusher.

 

[BallsforTennis]

Sorry but you can't change the definition of counter-puncher as you wish. All those players I mentioned are counter-punchers.

No they aren't. lol They have an ability to counter-punch well, but really it's only the make-up of one 'sector' to their very complete games.

Djokovic has an ability to counter-punch. Would you call him a counter-puncher? Is Dimitrov a counter-puncher, because he can counter-punch too?

I'm not changing any definition. I'm just saying, just because a player can counter punch doesn';t make them immediately a counter-puncher. Nishikori and Murray can both play aggressively, can we now brand these guy;s aggressive baseliners all of a sudden? Come on.

 

[JonC]

All I hear on TV is how much time the player spends in this or that zone. I guess when you can it the ball has hard as you can from the service line there's really no reason to stay back. Maybe they should make the courts smaller - anything but decrease head size, that would be like epically uncool dude. Spin killed tennis star.

 

[Wynter]

My simple answer is look at the players.

Lu, Bennetau, Monfils, Simon and Grannollers? Hewitt would destroy them peak for peak.

Through Analysis I looked at his H2H with Top 10 opponents since he turned 30, so 2012, far from his peak.

Nadal 1-0 Hewitt
Djokovic 2-0 Hewitt (Both times having Hewitt win sets)
Federer 1-1 Hewitt
Wawrinka 1-1 Hewitt
Raonic 0-1 Hewitt
Murray 0-0 Hewitt
Berdych 0-0 Hewitt
Del Potro 0-2 Hewitt
Ferrer 1-0 Hewitt
Dimitrov 0-1 Hewitt
Nishikori 0-1 Hewitt
Isner 2-2 Hewitt

H2H Post Hewitt's Decline vs Current Top 10 players since 2012 - 8-9 - Hewitt

Overall Head to Head with above players

Nadal 7-4
Djokovic 6-1
Federer 18-9
Wawrinka 2-2
Murray 1-0
Del Potro 2-3
Berdych 2-0
Ferrer 2-1 (Both Ferrer's are post 2010, and Hewitt still took sets off him.)
Dimitrov 1-0
Nishikori 0-2
Raonic 0-1
Isner 2-3

Career H2H vs Current Top Ten players

43-25

Remove Federer

25-16 Most matches barring Nadal and Fed occurred post 2008 when Hewitt was mainly out of the tour.

Bring everyone to their peak, and he would be between 4-8 in the current Top 10.

 

[BallsforTennis]

OP, this thread is going to turn into a Nadal-Novak war on who pushes more.

I will not be surprised if some may say that Federer also pushes to deflect the heat.

On topic, what about Robredo ?

Robredo, I wouldn';t say he's a counter-puncher really. He generally looks to open up the angles of the court by using the forehand. Hides the backhand running around it looking to dictate with the forehand. Spanish style, plays the percentages, always looks to go cross-court for that margin for error. Sure, he has the ability to counter-punch, but it's not what his 'success' is built on.

I;'m talking about players that's game is built on 'counter-punching' - Like Hewitt, Simon, Santoro, Chang, Monfils.... those kinda guys. Out and out ball-absorbers.

 

[BallsforTennis]

My simple answer is look at the players.

Lu, Bennetau, Monfils, Simon and Grannollers? Hewitt would destroy them peak for peak.

Through Analysis I looked at his H2H with Top 10 opponents since he turned 30, so 2012, far from his peak.

Nadal 1-0 Hewitt
Djokovic 2-0 Hewitt (Both times having Hewitt win sets)
Federer 1-1 Hewitt
Wawrinka 1-1 Hewitt
Raonic 0-1 Hewitt
Murray 0-0 Hewitt
Berdych 0-0 Hewitt
Del Potro 0-2 Hewitt
Ferrer 1-0 Hewitt
Dimitrov 0-1 Hewitt
Nishikori 0-1 Hewitt
Isner 2-2 Hewitt

H2H Post Hewitt's Decline vs Current Top 10 players since 2012 - 8-9 - Hewitt

Overall Head to Head with above players

Nadal 7-4
Djokovic 6-1
Federer 18-9
Wawrinka 2-2
Murray 1-0
Del Potro 2-3
Berdych 2-0
Ferrer 1-2
Dimitrov 1-0
Nishikori 0-2
Raonic 0-1
Isner 2-3

Career H2H vs Current Top Ten players

43-25

Remove Federer

25-16 Most matches barring Nadal and Fed occurred post 2008 when Hewitt was mainly out of the tour.

Bring everyone to their peak, and he would be between 4-8 in the current Top 10.

So in short. There are not any quality counter-punchers of Hewitt's caliber around any more and that is the simple explanation for the dryness?

 

[President]

I don't think Hewitt was any less aggressive than Murray off the ground, in general. Murray has more weapons, sure, but Hewitt had just as much (more, IMO) aggressive intent. If Hewitt was a counterpuncher, then so is Murray.

 

[Wynter]

So in short. There are not any quality counter-punchers of Hewitt's caliber around any more and that is the simple explanation for the dryness?

Yes. It really is that simple. :neutral:

Would any of them be able to compete with prime Hewitt, out of the players you bolded? The man led the H2H with Nadal until his injuries, and their H2H off Clay is tied.

 

[Breaker]

there are more counterpunchers now than in hewitt's prime where there was much more variety in styles in top 50-100

 

[BallsforTennis]

Yes. It really is that simple. :neutral:

Would any of them be able to compete with prime Hewitt, out of the players you bolded? The man led the H2H with Nadal until his injuries, and their H2H off Clay is tied.

Okay.

Well, we're not comparing their 'match-up' against one of the best counter-punchers the game has ever seen. We are comparing their 'match-up' against the players amongst around the top 20, 30, 40, 50 players in the world.

Better players aren't determined by how they match-up against one another anyway...

Tennis is about match-ups. Ferrer has never beaten Federer, but regularly beats Tsonga and Tsonga has beaten Federer a couple of times. Beating a player, doesn't make you better than them. It's just their strengths play into the others weaknesses.

 

[BallsforTennis]

there are more counterpunchers now than in hewitt's prime where there was much more variety in styles in top 50-100

lol?

Wa?

Are?

You?

Snorting?

You've had enough lines of that stuff for the night.

 

[Wynter]

Okay.

Well, we're not comparing their 'match-up' against one of the best counter-punchers the game has ever seen. We are comparing their 'match-up' against the players amongst around the top 20, 30, 40, 50 players in the world.

Asking whom is the better player between two players of a similar style, doesn't determine whom the better player is/was.

Tennis is about match-ups. Ferrer has never beaten Federer, but regularly beats Tsonga and Tsonga has beaten Federer a couple of times. Beating a player, doesn't make you better than them. It's just matchups.

Essentially what I'm saying is counter punching hasn't 'died' the simple fact is, there are no counterpunchers who are even near top 10 level

It's the quality of player, not the style itself.

 

[Breaker]

lol?

Wa?

Are?

You?

Snorting?

You've had enough lines of that stuff for the night.

2001 alone

1 Lleyton Hewitt AUS 4365
2 Gustavo Kuerten BRA 3855
3 Andre Agassi USA 3520
4 Yevgeny Kafelnikov RUS 3090
5 Juan Carlos Ferrero ESP 3040
6 Sebastien Grosjean FRA 2790
7 Patrick Rafter AUS 2785
8 Tommy Haas GER 2285
9 Tim Henman GBR 2100
10 Pete Sampras USA 1940
11 Marat Safin RUS 1920
12 Goran Ivanisevic CRO 1761
13 Roger Federer SUI 1745
14 Andy Roddick USA 1573
15 Guillermo Canas ARG 1572
16 Alex Corretja ESP 1525
17 Arnaud Clement FRA 1475
18 Thomas Johansson SWE 1375
19 Carlos Moya ESP 1310
20 Albert Portas ESP 1220
21 Jan-Michael Gambill USA 1215
22 Fabrice Santoro FRA 1210
23 Nicolas Lapentti ECU 1170
24 Thomas Enqvist SWE 1165
25 Hicham Arazi MAR 1155
26 Sjeng Schalken NED 1140
27 Nicolas Escude FRA 1130
28 Andrei Pavel ROU 1105
29 Jiri Novak CZE 1091
30 Tommy Robredo ESP 1080
31 Greg Rusedski GBR 1075
32 Bohdan Ulihrach CZE 1055
33 Xavier Malisse BEL 1045
34 Andreas Vinciguerra SWE 1025
35 Max Mirnyi BLR 1015
36 Dominik Hrbaty SVK 1005
37 Ivan Ljubicic CRO 982
38 Younes El Aynaoui MAR 973
39 Marcelo Rios CHI 965
40 Albert Costa ESP 960
41 Alberto Martin ESP 933
42 Nicolas Kiefer GER 920
43 Rainer Schuettler GER 885
44 Guillermo Coria ARG 875
45 Felix Mantilla ESP 850
46 Michel Kratochvil SUI 836
47 David Nalbandian ARG 795
48 Gaston Gaudio ARG 760
49 Magnus Norman SWE 740
50 Jerome Golmard FRA 722

Serve and volleyers, all courters, aggressive baseliners, + clay court specialists make up entire top 30 at least. Hewitt/Clement/Schuettler/maybe Santoro and Schalken though they could be in junkballer category only counterpunchers - and Hewitt was far more aggressive in finishing points than the other 'counterpunchers' of that time.

 

[BallsforTennis]

Essentially what I'm saying is counter punching hasn't 'died' the simple fact is, there are no counterpunchers who are even near top 10 level

It's the quality of player, not the style itself.

Fair and hard to disagree with point.

 

[BallsforTennis]

2001 alone



Serve and volleyers, all courters, aggressive baseliners, + clay court specialists make up entire top 30 at least. Hewitt/Clement/Schuettler/maybe Santoro and Schalken though they could be in junkballer category only counterpunchers - and Hewitt was far more aggressive in finishing points than the other 'counterpunchers' of that time.

Hmmm. Interesting.

 

[BallsforTennis]

So does everyone believe Hewitt would have gotten a 1-3 ranking in today's game and had grandslam success?

What ranking would Hewitt achieve in today's field? And would he win masters? Howmany? Slams?

 

[Wynter]

So does everyone believe Hewitt would have gotten a 1-3 ranking in today's game and had grandslam success?

What ranking would Hewitt achieve in today's field? And would he win masters? Howmany? Slams?

Right now? 3-10 Murrays Decline, Feds age.

Slam chances Wimbledon and USO particularly Wimbledon.

Masters? 2-5

 

[BallsforTennis]

Okay, during a period where Fed, Nole, Rafa and Andy were all on. Say 2012?

Consider Del Potro, Ferrer, Berdych and Tsonga and think how he'd match-up against those. Del Potro was injured at the US Open last year, just incase you bring that to the fore.

Would you have him anywhere near number 4 or 5?

 

[tennisaddict]

Top 5 for sure.

 

[Wynter]

Clay season weighs too much, he'd never challenge Novak or Nadal

Fed and Murray would be fair game 3-5 again.

 

[BallsforTennis]

Clay season weighs too much, he'd never challenge Novak or Nadal

Fed and Murray would be fair game 3-5 again.

:lol: :lol:

 

[Wynter]

:lol: :lol:

What? Prime Hewitt vs Not Peak Fed and Murray

They'd split games.

 

[andrewski]

Nadal, Murray and Ferrer are counter-punchers.

I would support that, therefore the OP proposition is wrong, unless it was any different in previous generations.

 

[Mainad]

Given that the best counter-puncher we have is currently world #1, I am of the opinion that it's death is greatly exaggerated!

 

[Djokovic2011]

Given that the best counter-puncher we have is currently world #1, I am of the opinion that it's death is greatly exaggerated!

Djokovic is an aggressive baseline player Mainad. :shock:

 

[coloskier]

Sorry but you can't change the definition of counter-puncher as you wish. All those players I mentioned are counter-punchers.

Agreed. A counter-puncher by definition is a player who wins most of his point by either the opponents error or by passing an aggressive player at the net. He does not produce an over-abundance of winners. His winners to opponents unforced error percentage is very low.

 

[Mainad]

Djokovic is an aggressive baseline player Mainad. :shock:

I see. Has 'counter-puncher' become a dirty word these days? I always rather liked the sound of it! :wink:

 

[NatF]

I see. Has 'counter-puncher' become a dirty word these days? I always rather liked the sound of it! :wink:

You would being a Murray fan

 

[Djokovic2011]

I see. Has 'counter-puncher' become a dirty word these days? I always rather liked the sound of it! :wink:

Well if he is a counter-puncher then he's the very best one around! :razz:

 

[BHud]

It was much easier to counter-punch when the racquets weren't as powerful and the strings didn't allow for such spin. You couldn't get the ball off the court with short angles from 10 feet behind the baseline 20 years ago. The style is not effective today. The game is more about taking higher risks than it ever has been.

 

[Mainad]

Well if he is a counter-puncher then he's the very best one around! :razz:

That's what I just said which is why I think it's death is probably being a teeny-weeny bit exaggerated!

 

[BallsforTennis]

Agreed. A counter-puncher by definition is a player who wins most of his point by either the opponents error or by passing an aggressive player at the net. He does not produce an over-abundance of winners. His winners to opponents unforced error percentage is very low.

No. A counterpuncher is not a player that pushes the ball back into court.

Who says this ludicrousy?

 

[coloskier]

No. A counterpuncher is not a player that pushes the ball back into court.

Who says this ludicrousy?

Do you see the word "Push" or "Pusher" any where in that post?

 

[kiki]

who needs a counterpuncher when nobody is attacking him?

 

[torpantennis]

Murray is as clear a counter puncher as there is! He CAN hit monster FHs, but NEVER does. And you know what? Federer is the one who struggles with counter punchers: Hewitt/Murray/Simon...

 

[Netspirit]

I consider Nadal, Djokovic, Murray and Ferrer to be counter-punchers, with Nadal and Djokovic more aggressive and Murray and Ferrer less.

 

[Mainad]

Murray is as clear a counter puncher as there is! He CAN hit monster FHs, but NEVER does. And you know what? Federer is the one who struggles with counter punchers: Hewitt/Murray/Simon...

Well, he obviously does sometimes or we would never know that he can, would we? :wink:

For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wROcw-bm6Mo

 

[Netspirit]

Any tennis pro can hit monster FHs. The term "counter-puncher" applies to their average shot selection, not occasional outliers.

 

[cjs]

delete post.

 

[torpantennis]

I consider Nadal, Djokovic, Murray and Ferrer to be counter-punchers, with Nadal and Djokovic more aggressive and Murray and Ferrer less.

Nadal most definitely is NOT a counter puncher! You think he prefers NOT to create heavy balls with power from his own stroke?

And this Ferrer not aggressive, where is this legend coming from? Ferrer ALWAYS looks to dominate with his FH, and looks to come in to finish the point at net. IMO only Federer's strategy is more aggressive than Ferrer's. And that's why Ferrer struggles with Federer. Federer is everything that Ferrer is, JUST BETTER.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

My simple answer is look at the players.

Lu, Bennetau, Monfils, Simon and Grannollers? Hewitt would destroy them peak for peak.

Through Analysis I looked at his H2H with Top 10 opponents since he turned 30, so 2012, far from his peak.

Nadal 1-0 Hewitt
Djokovic 2-0 Hewitt (Both times having Hewitt win sets)
Federer 1-1 Hewitt
Wawrinka 1-1 Hewitt
Raonic 0-1 Hewitt
Murray 0-0 Hewitt
Berdych 0-0 Hewitt
Del Potro 0-2 Hewitt
Ferrer 1-0 Hewitt
Dimitrov 0-1 Hewitt
Nishikori 0-1 Hewitt
Isner 2-2 Hewitt

H2H Post Hewitt's Decline vs Current Top 10 players since 2012 - 8-9 - Hewitt

Overall Head to Head with above players

Nadal 7-4
Djokovic 6-1
Federer 18-9
Wawrinka 2-2
Murray 1-0
Del Potro 2-3
Berdych 2-0
Ferrer 2-1 (Both Ferrer's are post 2010, and Hewitt still took sets off him.)
Dimitrov 1-0
Nishikori 0-2
Raonic 0-1
Isner 2-3

Career H2H vs Current Top Ten players

43-25

Remove Federer

25-16 Most matches barring Nadal and Fed occurred post 2008 when Hewitt was mainly out of the tour.

Bring everyone to their peak, and he would be between 4-8 in the current Top 10.

Bring Hewitt to his peak and he would be #1 or #2 in the world IMO. Very underrated player who would do well in today's conditions.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Djokovic is an aggressive baseline player Mainad. :shock:

Not exactly, but he can be aggressive if he wants. Murray is less aggressive than Djokovic and plays in his counterpuncher style all the time. People overexaggerate his "lethal moments" way too much, which he hasn't shown too often. His counterpuncher style is enough to get by with and be ranked 10 in the world in today's game.. even far away from his best..

Peak Hewitt would do fine in today's game.

 

[torpantennis]

Bring Hewitt to his peak and he would be #1 or #2 in the world IMO. Very underrated player who would do well in today's conditions.

Hewitt is indeed underrated. But IMO he would NOT do well in today's conditions. Counter-punchers like Hewitt and Murray play the best on fast courts, where counterpunching the opponent's pace back is enough to hurry the opponent. No surprise, both have won their only slams in Wimby/USO, the two fastest slams. Counter-punchers have no chance on clay IMO, the slowest of surfaces. On clay you have to really be able to create that heavy ball consistently.

IMO Hewitt/Murray would play better on faster conditions.

 

[Phoenix1983]

The top 2 in the world rankings are counter punchers!

 

[coloskier]

Nadal most definitely is NOT a counter puncher! You think he prefers NOT to create heavy balls with power from his own stroke?

And this Ferrer not aggressive, where is this legend coming from? Ferrer ALWAYS looks to dominate with his FH, and looks to come in to finish the point at net. IMO only Federer's strategy is more aggressive than Ferrer's. And that's why Ferrer struggles with Federer. Federer is everything that Ferrer is, JUST BETTER.

And taller.

 

[BallsforTennis]

Nadal most definitely is NOT a counter puncher! You think he prefers NOT to create heavy balls with power from his own stroke?

And this Ferrer not aggressive, where is this legend coming from? Ferrer ALWAYS looks to dominate with his FH, and looks to come in to finish the point at net. IMO only Federer's strategy is more aggressive than Ferrer's. And that's why Ferrer struggles with Federer. Federer is everything that Ferrer is, JUST BETTER.

Good post.

Ferrer nor Nadal are counter-punchers.

Nadal CAN counter-punch but doesn't really absorb the pace that much.

Djokovic can counter-punch and does sometimes, against big ball-strikers like Del Potro. Murray does counter-punch similarly against big ball-strikers, but against his average tactic is to use an all-court game.

There aren't many ball-absorbers around today. Then against, as shown by another poster, it's not too different to the 90s either, where there wernt many either. However they were more successful back then.

 

[Russeljones]

2001 alone



Serve and volleyers, all courters, aggressive baseliners, + clay court specialists make up entire top 30 at least. Hewitt/Clement/Schuettler/maybe Santoro and Schalken though they could be in junkballer category only counterpunchers - and Hewitt was far more aggressive in finishing points than the other 'counterpunchers' of that time.

Wasted energy. I presume you're responding to someone who started following tennis quite recently.