The default idea that Peak Rafael Nadal will always Peak beat Federer on Grass

Is 2008 WB F a proof of Nadal's superiority on Grass

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 19.7%
  • No

    Votes: 38 62.3%
  • Djokovic GOAT

    Votes: 11 18.0%

  • Total voters
    61

Krish0608

Hall of Fame
Whoever had this ridiculous idea. Not even Nadal fans say this. It’s fairly obvious that Peak Federer better than Peak Nadal on grass.
 

Mivic

New User
You are delusional. Utterly delusional.

2010 sure.
Any other year Fed wins.
Lol. Federer doesn’t beat Nadal in 2011. Djokovic made it look relatively easy in the final because he had laid the groundwork in their 4 previous matches that year (including two on clay), giving him a significant mental edge heading into the final (an advantage which Federer has never enjoyed in his rivalry with Rafa). On top of that, it goes without saying that Djokovic poses a far greater problem to Nadal stylistically than Federer.

Nadal owned Federer in slams at that stage and himself would have had a significant edge in the mental department in that match-up.

Remember also that Rafa took 5 sets to beat Haase and Petzschner in 2010. Based on form coming into the final Nadal was no better in 2010 than he was in 2011.

If we’re talking about peak Federer I’d agree with you. Not his 2011 version though. Nadal would take it.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
L

Lol. Federer doesn’t beat Nadal in 2011. Djokovic made it look relatively easy in the final because he had laid the groundwork in their 4 previous matches that year (including two on clay), giving him a significant mental edge heading into the final (an advantage which Federer has never enjoyed in his rivalry with Rafa). On top of that, it goes without saying that Djokovic poses a far greater problem to Nadal stylistically than Federer.

Nadal owned Federer in slams at that stage and himself would have had a significant edge in the mental department in that match-up. Rafa took 5 sets to beat Haase and Petzschner in 2010. Based on form coming into the final Nadal was no better in 2010 than he was in 2011.

If we’re talking about peak Federer I’d agree with you. Not his 2011 version though. Nadal would take it.
If fed rounds into any sort of decent form (ie his RG/uso level) then I expect him to comfortably take it in 4. Same for USO.

i dont extrapolate results based on their clay or slow HC matches.
 
People seem to forget the only time Nadal ever beat Federer on grass was 9-7 in the 5th in the dark against a very low confidence Fed. i.e. it took the stars to align. It doesn't happen otherwise.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Professional
You are delusional. Utterly delusional.

2010 sure.
Any other year Fed wins.
How are you so sure about this? 2009 was one year after 2008 and in between Nadals two Wimbledon winning years so I do not see why it should not get close like in 2007 and 2008. Factoring in that Federer’s confidence against nadal was at an all time low at this time I cannot see how he would be favorite. In 2011 Nadal reached the final (albeit getting destroyed there) while Federer lost against Tsonga. 2018 is close but again nothing safe here. Anyways, it is all speculation but pretending as if Federer would have been the big favorite in 2009 or 2011 based on the information we have stretches it to say the least.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
How are you so sure about this? 2009 was one year after 2008 and in between Nadals two Wimbledon winning years so I do not see why it should not get close like in 2007 and 2008. Factoring in that Federer’s confidence against nadal was at an all time low at this time I cannot see how he would be favorite. In 2011 Nadal reached the final (albeit getting destroyed there) while Federer lost against Tsonga. 2018 is close but again nothing safe here. Anyways, it is all speculation but pretending as if Federer would have been the big favorite in 2009 or 2011 based on the information we have stretches it to say the least.
But Nadal sure as heck would not give him a beatdown in those years except 2010.

In 2009 Nadal, had he played, would have had a murderous draw comprising of all of Hewitt, Roddick, Murray and Fed. Fed was also coming off a RG win, so his confidence wouldn't have been so low. Nadal's, on the other hand, would have been.

In 2011 Nadal played a poor final.

In 2018 Fed is not losing to Nadal off clay if he is playing at a good level.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Professional
But Nadal sure as heck would not give him a beatdown in those years except 2010.

In 2009 Nadal, had he played, would have had a murderous draw comprising of all of Hewitt, Roddick, Murray and Fed. Fed was also coming off a RG win, so his confidence wouldn't have been so low. Nadal's, on the other hand, would have been.

In 2011 Nadal played a poor final.

In 2018 Fed is not losing to Nadal off clay if he is playing at a good level.
I do not agree with beatdown, but I would see Nadal as the favourite to be honest. During this time, especially in 2009 Federer had a mental blockade against him and had it gone close - which sure as hell it would have - I can hardly see him being clutch enough to close it out. 2011 is also close. Sure nadal played a poor final, but this was against Djokovic who is a way bigger match up problem for him than Fed. 2018 I agree that Federer would be favored here.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I do not agree with beatdown, but I would see Nadal as the favourite to be honest. During this time, especially in 2009 Federer had a mental blockade against him and had it gone close - which sure as hell it would have - I can hardly see him being clutch enough to close it out. 2011 is also close. Sure nadal played a poor final, but this was against Djokovic who is a way bigger match up problem for him than Fed. 2018 I agree that Federer would be favored here.
2009 would be close, but 2 things have to be considered:

1. He had a murderous draw. No guarantee he even arrives fresh enough.

2. If he still loses at RG, his confidence is the one that's low more than Fed's.
 

RaulRamirez

Hall of Fame
Does it matter?
Rafa won that huge match in 2008, and proved several times that he could be quite formidable at Wimbledon.

But over the course of their careers, Fed has proven, convincingly, that he is the better, more natural grass courter.
 

ibbi

Legend
Nadal is a terrible match up for Federer. It's clearly less of an issue now than it used to be, but you're talking about pitting best against best. I wouldn't say he would ALWAYS beat him on grass, but he probably does so more often than not.

Consider also that the Wimbledon 2008 final was a wet, overcast day, and those conditions cater to Federer, not Nadal.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Professional
Yo
2009 would be close, but 2 things have to be considered:

1. He had a murderous draw. No guarantee he even arrives fresh enough.

2. If he still loses at RG, his confidence is the one that's low more than Fed's.
we need to distinguish between low confidence in general and low confidence/mental block against a particular player. Nadal was on low confidence against Djokovic in 2011 but nevertheless beat Fed in the FO Open.
 

Pheasant

Hall of Fame
Federer has been terrible on grass courts. This part is a given

2013 Wimbledon proved Stakhovsky will always beat peak Fed on grass.
2000 Halle proved that Michael Chang will alway beat peak Fed on grass. Fed won Halle 10 times. And yet, Michael Chang with his far superior grass court skills steamrolled peak Fed 7-6, 6-2 at the QF of the 2000 Halle tourney.
 
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swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
Exactly!
"Peak" federer would have steamrolled everyone on every court!
"Peak" nadal would have steamrolled everyone on every court!
How can they ever get an actual non hypothetical win?!
 

BorgTheGOAT

Professional
It doesn't mean he would have beaten him at Wimb too.
No. But I think we can agree that this is way to difficult to predict who would have won. It might be ridiculous to say that Nadal would have destroyed Federer but I think at the same time it is ridiculous to say people who believe Nadal would have won in 2009 are delusional.
 
Djokovic was unlucky that Federer played against him like his life depended on it that year, especially at the French. Would've been a fairly comfortable 3-0 otherwise.
It's called playing to his talent, and even then only up to a point as evidenced by so many close sets lost for no good reason. If Federer did that more often instead of the chokefests we keep getting, he'd have left everyone in the dust long ago already. Sad that the greatest artistry and the greatest focus don't go hand in hand.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Peak Safin AO BOAT?
Not a totally insane position honestly but a. the body of work is radically different, and b. that match was much much closer. Safin matches up great against Djokovic and Agassi, he at least showed he could beat Federer even if that match would be tough to repeat. That leaves 94 Sampras and 09 Nadal for great AO peaks and maybe you can throw in Stan? Safin has solid cases against all of them.

Direct meetings are not the end all be all, and it is a small sample, but it's asinine to claim that 11 RG doesn't matter at all. You don't get very many h2h meetings with both guys actually in great form, so the ones you do matter especially when the bodies of work are almost identical.
 

Mivic

New User
2006 - 2008 Nadal on grass would beat any version of Djokovic on grass.
The same Nadal that went a set down against a compromised Djokovic at Wimbledon in 2007? The same Nadal that Djokovic played extremely close at Queens in 2008? I’m sorry but I don’t see that version of Nadal beating Djokovic of 2015.

2015 Djokovic’s serve-return package, the importance of which is highly accentuated on grass, is so superior to Nadal’s (Rafa served a grand total of one ace in the 07 final over the course of 5 sets) that I just don’t see any version of Nadal living with that version of Novak, even if you want to argue that Nadal has an edge from the baseline (Nadal had an edge from the baseline in their 2018 SF for example, but the differential in the serve-return department was too much for him to overcome).

The fact that Nadal was able to push Federer to the limit on grass during that stretch has little bearing on the match up between Djokovic and Nadal. It’s a far easier match up for Novak vs Rafa than it is for Federer, as we should all know by now. Anyway, the best indication we have of how the match up would play out is 2011, when both were in their prime on grass but neither at their peak, with Djokovic winning in 4. Maybe you could elaborate on your case for Nadal though.
 
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nachiket nolefam

Hall of Fame
Nadal is not great grass court player. Federer is awesome. Federer will beat him everytime in daytime. Nadal will probably see better in night.
 

BGod

Legend
Incredibly hard to judge. The grass in 2008 was worse than 2007 in that it played like dirt. I mean, just go look back at the match and compare to the 06, 07 and 09 finals. Let's not forget the rain delays having an effect as well both on the swings of momentum and the playing surface itself.

Then you got Nadal's embarrassing losses throughout his prime years.

I don't know how anyone picks Nadal here. If we assume Nadal's best form was 2008, which is questionable as one could argue 2010, Fed's best form would be 04-06. And I take Fed in 4.
 

Lew II

Legend
Last 8 wimbledons:

Federer 2 titles, 3 finals
Nadsl 0 titles, 0 finals

Federer is clearly the more evolved grasscourt player.
 

JoelSandwich

Hall of Fame
Not a totally insane position honestly but a. the body of work is radically different, and b. that match was much much closer. Safin matches up great against Djokovic and Agassi, he at least showed he could beat Federer even if that match would be tough to repeat. That leaves 94 Sampras and 09 Nadal for great AO peaks and maybe you can throw in Stan? Safin has solid cases against all of them.

Direct meetings are not the end all be all, and it is a small sample, but it's asinine to claim that 11 RG doesn't matter at all. You don't get very many h2h meetings with both guys actually in great form, so the ones you do matter especially when the bodies of work are almost identical.
The AO is such a hard slam to rank for peak level
I could see an argument for any of those guys being above the other
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Nads fans will beat us round the head with the 3-1 h2h at the AO saying it means Nadal would beat Federer there all the time peak for peak, but apparently the 3-1 advantage at Wimbledon means nothing to those same people :unsure:
Would you say Federer played better in his three defeats to Nadal at the AO than Nadal did in his three defeats at Wimbledon? I thought Roger played at a very high level at both AO 2009 and '12 and Nadal was obviously great at Wimbledon 2007 but perhaps not so good in 2006 and 2019(compared to other versions at least). I think overall Fed pushed him harder at the AO than Nadal did to him at Wim, which is probably to be expected. Would be interested to hear your thoughts.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Would you say Federer played better in his three defeats to Nadal at the AO than Nadal did in his three defeats at Wimbledon? I thought Roger played at a very high level at both AO 2009 and '12 and Nadal was obviously great at Wimbledon 2007 but perhaps not so good in 2006 and 2019(compared to other versions at least). I think overall Fed pushed him harder at the AO than Nadal did to him at Wim, which is probably to be expected. Would be interested to hear your thoughts.
Hard to say, the AO has both probably the toughest win (AO 2009) and the easiest (AO 2014), the AO 2012 match was perhaps more hardfought that 2006/2019 as well so edge to the AO.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Hard to say, the AO has both probably the toughest win (AO 2009) and the easiest (AO 2014), the AO 2012 match was perhaps more hardfought that 2006/2019 as well so edge to the AO.
Yeah and I guess it just highlights yet again how important match-ups are in tennis. If you went up to the average person in the street and told them that Federer had won a tournament six times compared to Nadal's one but had lost three of the four matches they'd played there they'd be like "how on earth is that even possible?".
 
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