The Djokovic - Nadal rivalry has become more surface dependent than ever before

ForehandRF

Legend
If back in the day, they were able to beat each other on every surface, in the last few years it's not the case anymore.Nadal hasn't beaten Djokovic on hardcourts in many years and Djokovic also hasn't beaten Nadal on clay in a long time.
 

UnforcedTerror

Hall of Fame
Nadal hasn't won a set on HC off Djokovic since 2013

Djokovic hasn't won a set on clay off Nadal since 2 days ago
9VARLD4.jpg
 
And tell me when did Federer's prime end?

Unlike most around here, I have pretty clear definitions of what constitutes "peak" and "prime" (yes, I don't use these two things interchangeably).

For me a player is in his "prime" when he displays very high competitive level, in which he plays on that level for at least 1/3 of the events he participates in, without having a period of more than two years where his form drops considerably from that level. It means that Federer's prime ended around the beginning of 2018.

:cool:
 

TripleATeam

G.O.A.T.
Unlike most around here, I have pretty clear definitions of what constitutes "peak" and "prime" (yes, I don't use these two things interchangeably).

For me a player is in his "prime" when he displays very high competitive level, in which he plays on that level for at least 1/3 of the events he participates in, without having a period of more than two years where his form drops considerably from that level. It means that Federer's prime ended around the beginning of 2018.

:cool:
Sure. Other people have differing definitions that are just as valid. There's no tennis authority that dictates that your definition for prime is any more valid than @aldeayeah 's.
 
Sure. Other people have differing definitions that are just as valid. There's no tennis authority that dictates that your definition for prime is any more valid than @aldeayeah 's.

Of course. However, there are some objective metrics about what is considered a top achievement that are universally accepted: among those are Majors won, WTF won, Masters won, time as #1, YE #1s, consistency etc. If you can take more than 1/3 of Nadsy's career achievements and place it outside of his "prime" it begs the question, what does "prime" mean to you at all.

Someone could have an opinion that Nadal's "prime" constitutes of one tournament: I couldn't be bothered with considering that seriously.

:cool:
 

aldeayeah

G.O.A.T.
sigh

I consider 2014 RG-present to be post prime Nadal. The period in which his original game plan mostly stopped working at the highest level due to physical decline.

If you want to call that same period post peak or whatever, I won't sue you or anything, go ahead.

2014 is not very relevant to this discussion anyway, because Nadal didn't meet Fedovic much outside clay (routined Fed in AO, got drubbed by Djoko in Miami and that's it)
 

junior74

Talk Tennis Guru
To be fair to him, he only really falls short as his post prime self, and against two other high tier ATGs.

True. But Federer is 5 years older in all their matches ;)

Nadal was generally better on HC/ grass earlier in his career. The overall competition has been a lot weaker since 2016/17. So many players started declining at that time and there was no one to replace them.
 
sigh

I consider 2014 RG-present to be post prime Nadal. The period in which his original game plan mostly stopped working at the highest level due to physical decline.

If you want to call that same period post peak or whatever, I won't sue you or anything, go ahead.

2014 is not very relevant to this discussion anyway, because Nadal didn't meet Fedovic much outside clay (routined Fed in AO, got drubbed by Djoko in Miami and that's it)

So, Nadal won 7 Majors with his "original game" not working?

The things one learns every day.

:cool:
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Let nadal face djokovic on one of Iw,canada and Us open consistently for 2-3 time he will surely be winning atleast 1-2 sets in wirst case. No matchup on these favourable hardcourt nadal for since 2016. Don't say nadal didn't reach djokovic. Canada both years and us open 2019 it was djokovic who failed to reach him.

Bingo. It's almost comical how Djokovic fans ignore this crucial reality and act as if all hardcourts are the same. Nadal's best hardcourts are in the North American Summer hardcourt swing. Djokovic often fails to meet Nadal in that part of the hardcourt season, where Nadal's game would have a greater advantage on hardcourt (Rogers Cup, US Open etc)
 
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Beckerserve

Legend
Bingo. It's almost comical how Djokovic fans ignore this crucial reality and act as if all hardcourts are the same. Nadait's best hardcourts are in the North American Summer hardcourt swing. Djokovic often fails to meet Nadal in that part of the hardcourt season, where Nadal's game would have a greater advantage on hardcourt (Rogers Cup, US Open etc)
The only evidence we have is Djokovic has not beat Nadal for a long time on clay and Nadal cannot beat Djokovic in Australia. As they have not met in IW miami Canada cincinatti USO for years we do not know what would happen.
Djokovic fans assume on this issue all hard courts play the same as they transpose AO and ATP cup results to what will happen in America. However when we then say Nadal is GOAT as only one to have more than one Major on each surface so is the most diverse player they pile on claiming in fact AO and USO play vastly different. It is comical the total reversal of positioning lol
 

Nadal_King

Hall of Fame
The only evidence we have is Djokovic has not beat Nadal for a long time on clay and Nadal cannot beat Djokovic in Australia. As they have not met in IW miami Canada cincinatti USO for years we do not know what would happen.
Djokovic fans assume on this issue all hard courts play the same as they transpose AO and ATP cup results to what will happen in America. However when we then say Nadal is GOAT as only one to have more than one Major on each surface so is the most diverse player they pile on claiming in fact AO and USO play vastly different. It is comical the total reversal of positioning lol
Australia and atp cup hc is miles different from American hardcourt infact those American hc are more close to clay due to speed and high bounce. Rome is djokovic's best clay tournament and they met 3 times since 2017 and djokovic losing all of them but winning sets, if they meet in say Iw I think djokovic could win all but nadal can take 1-2 sets in those like djokovic at rome. If at Us open then those matches could be quite close infact.
 
D

Deleted member 771911

Guest
It's become very dull. Nole wins on HC/Grass, Nadal on the red stuff.
Still, their Rome final was interesting for about 45 minutes.
 

Beckerserve

Legend
Australia and atp cup hc is miles different from American hardcourt infact those American hc are more close to clay due to speed and high bounce. Rome is djokovic's best clay tournament and they met 3 times since 2017 and djokovic losing all of them but winning sets, if they meet in say Iw I think djokovic could win all but nadal can take 1-2 sets in those like djokovic at rome. If at Us open then those matches could be quite close infact.
Always would back Nadal v Djokovic at USO if a full crowd on Ashe. Ashe raises Rafa but subdues djokovic. Opposite is true on RLA
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Let nadal face djokovic on one of Iw,canada and Us open consistently for 2-3 time he will surely be winning atleast 1-2 sets in wirst case. No matchup on these favourable hardcourt nadal for since 2016. Don't say nadal didn't reach djokovic. Canada both years and us open 2019 it was djokovic who failed to reach him.

Wouldn't be so sure about IW.
But Canada and USO yes.
 

dapchai

Legend
I know. And it's okay. I do think that Nadals clay skew in these H2H is more damning than the other way around given his all around record.

Their last grass match was amazing tho
I think at the end of the day we should only care about their matches H2H instead of sets H2H. Rules are rules and the winner takes it all.

Their last match on grass was like a coin toss; I would love to see them tearing each other apart at this year WC.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Always would back Nadal v Djokovic at USO if a full crowd on Ashe. Ashe raises Rafa but subdues djokovic. Opposite is true on RLA

2011 saw different. A pretty routine win in a match where Nadal was fighting tooth and Nails only to go down in 4 convincingly.

Nadal isn't this unbeatable monster as you make it out to be.
 

MadariKatu

Hall of Fame
It's become very dull. Nole wins on HC/Grass, Nadal on the red stuff.
Still, their Rome final was interesting for about 45 minutes.
In Rome, the first set lasted 1h15min or so. I'd say it was uninteresting for about 45 minutes, when Nadal was making unforced errors, and it was clear they were gonna play a 3rd set. The 3rd wasn't as high quality as the first, but it was sure interesting.
In the atp cup, the first set wasn't very interesting, but in the second, Nadal pushed him to a tie breaker. Sadly he couldn't force a third set, which could have been very entertaining, but there was something to watch there.

On grass, well, last time Djokovic won, but saying he "wins" as if the result were nid... the match was very high quality, an instant classic, and was interesting for over 5 hours.

It is true though, that in the later years, they couldn't push each other as much outside their surfaces
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
0-20 on HC and grass against Fedovic since 2013 (Novak), 2014 (Roger)

Rafa has always been a little surface dependent. Not taking anything away from him. Greatest of all time on clay.
Federer hasn't beaten Nadal on clay since 2009.

Federer is more surface dependent than Nadal in the H2H in Slams. Nadal leads the H2H in Slams over Federer both on hard (3-1) and clay (6-0). Federer only leads Nadal on grass. Nadal also leads Djokovic at the US Open, while Djokovic has never led the H2H over Nadal on any clay tournament.
 
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