The Djokovic rivalry is enhancing Nadal's GOAT credentials

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octogon

Hall of Fame
Who would have thought that after Djokovic started going rampant in 2011 and beat Nadal 7 times straight.

For all the world, it looked like Nadal had finally run into his "Kryptonite". That Djokovic would be to Nadal, what Nadal was to Federer. People were even wondering whether Nadal would ever be able to beat Djokovic in a slam again. Now he's done it the last two times they've played in a slam.

Federer never showed the same sort of resilance and resolve in coping with his greatest rival. The fact that Nadal is the dominant player in what many consider to be the two greatest rivalries in the open era is surely a big argument in favor Nadal's canidacy for GOAT status (as will his upcoming 12th slam win on Sunday).

Djokovic is an incredibly difficult match-up for Nadal. Yet he is still finding a way to triumph on the biggest stage against his nemesis. That's what GOAT contenders do.
 
octogon said:
Who would have thought that after Djokovic started going rampant in 2011 and beat Nadal 7 times straight.

For all the world, it looked like Nadal had finally run into his "Kryptonite". That Djokovic would be to Nadal, what Nadal was to Federer. People were even wondering whether Nadal would ever be able to beat Djokovic in a slam again. Now he's done it the last two times they've played in a slam.

Federer never showed the same sort of resilance and resolve in coping with his greatest rival. The fact that Nadal is the dominant player in what many consider to be the two greatest rivalries in the open era is surely a big argument in favor Nadal's canidacy for GOAT status (as will his upcoming 12th slam win on Sunday).

Djokovic is an incredibly difficult match-up for Nadal. Yet he is still finding a way to triumph on the biggest stage against his nemesis. That's what GOAT contenders do.
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What's key to me is that Federer never came as close to beating Nadal at the FO or anywhere else after 2008.

Nadal basically crushed Fed in every slam after that.
 
The Dark Knight said:
What's key to me is that Federer never came as close to beating Nadal at the FO or anywhere else after 2008.

Nadal basically crushed Fed in every slam after that.
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Yeah. The rise of Djokovic 2.0 was basically the biggest test of Nadal's career. And I'd say he's passed it. If he flunked it and Djokovic basically had his number in ALL slams after 2011, people would have been happy to write Nadal off as lesser player than Djokovic, who was unable to beat prime, post 2011 Djokovic.

Yet here Nadal is, still defeating prime Djokovic at slams. Something Federer could not do when Nadal started reaching his prime.

Djokovic is an all-time great who presents a big match-up issue for Nadal. Yet he still manages to stay ahead in the rivalry. That's why I don't like Federer fans using the "match-up" issue to explain Fed's dismal H2H with Nadal. Fed should have found a way.
 
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If Nadal can win big matches like this at Wimby, USO, AO, YEC etc...

Nadal winning big matches on clay is predictable.
 
octogon said:
Federer never showed the same sort of resilance and resolve in coping with his greatest rival
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Nadal's legs aren't five years older than Djokovic. Easier for him to bounce back in a rivalry like this.

Also, Nadal has yet to beat Djoko away from his favourite clay since the 7 wins.
 
ScottleeSV said:
Nadal's legs aren't five years older than Djokovic. Easier for him to bounce back in a rivalry like this.

Also, Nadal has yet to beat Djoko away from his favourite clay since the 7 wins.
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Poor excuse. Nadal dominated the Federer rivalry from the very beginning. Fed had his chance to dominate a "baby Nadal", but he never did.

Nadal has also never been behind in the Djokovic rivalry H2H, despite the guy always giving him a hard time.

They haven't yet faced at any non-Clay slams since the 7 wins. But lets be real...Djokovic doesn't have the mental edge anymore, which is how those 7 wins (3 of them clay finals) came about in the first place. Nadal will be able to beat him in slams on any surface (and the reverse probably holds true).
 
ScottleeSV said:
Nadal's legs aren't five years older than Djokovic. Easier for him to bounce back in a rivalry like this.

Also, Nadal has yet to beat Djoko away from his favourite clay since the 7 wins.
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With the amount of running he's done in his career, I think like they are five years older than Djokovic's
 
Meh, Winning on clay is no big deal. He is already the Clay GOAT so doesn't matter if he beats Nole ten more times on clay. He can improve his claim towards GOAT if he dominates Nole, Murray in other slams and wins more slams. Until then he is just the clay GOAT.
 
The Dark Knight said:
What's key to me is that Federer never came as close to beating Nadal at the FO or anywhere else after 2008.

Nadal basically crushed Fed in every slam after that.
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Didn't the AO in 09 go to 5 sets? That doesn't seem to be being "crushed". Fed also had his chances at the French in 2011.
 
octogon said:
Poor excuse. Nadal dominated the Federer rivalry from the very beginning. Fed had his chance to dominate a "baby Nadal", but he never did.

Nadal has also never been behind in the Djokovic rivalry H2H, despite the guy always giving him a hard time.

They haven't yet faced at any non-Clay slams since the 7 wins. But lets be real...Djokovic doesn't have the mental edge anymore, which is how those 7 wins (3 of them clay finals) came about in the first place. Nadal will be able to beat him in slams on any surface (and the reverse probably holds true).
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Federer won something like 5 out of 7 times against Nadal in the latter stages of Fed's 'peak', so Nadal hasn't always dominated at all. Federer v Ferrer is what you call domination. Losing 10 times to someone is not.

Djokovic has won something like 11 of the last 17 meetings against Nadal. Since Djokovic hit his peak, Nadal has been very much inferior. It's only Nadal's incredible clay talent that keeps their rivalry competitive.

I doubt Nadal will beat Djokovic at Wimbledon or the US Open this year, although I'd give him half a chance SW19 just so long as it's not under the roof.
 
Shady_Sawyer said:
before all you Nadal fans get on his schlong....lets see if he can beat this Djokovic in other slams .
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That's a bunch of crocks in the light of last year AO's final.

He can beat Nole, all he needs is tune his BH to be more penetrating and not land short.
 
The Dark Knight said:
What's key to me is that Federer never came as close to beating Nadal at the FO or anywhere else after 2008.

Nadal basically crushed Fed in every slam after that.
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The FO 2011 says otherwise.

Fed was up 5-2 and had SP in the first set, got Nadal to a TB in the 2nd and come back from a set down to win the 3rd.
 
Fintft said:
That's a bunch of crocks in the light of last year AO's final.

He can beat Nole, all he needs is tune his BH to be more penetrating and not land short.
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please...that was after a 5 hour semi final with murray. If Djoko was fresh he would have beaten in him in straights or at the most 4 like we saw in US open 2011 and wimbledon 2011.
 
Djokovic has pushed Nadal at Roland Garros either side of his injury layoff, and had his number on other surfaces prior to that.
 
As the others have been saying.... Nadal is competitive with Novak on clay, and brutalized by him everywhere else. Let's see if Nadal can record a victory on the concrete, and then we can talk.
 
Nadal is just a clay GOAT who helped puncture Fed's GOAT status. lets leave it at that. Nadal is not GOAT overall unless his slams are more evenly distributed across different surfaces.
 
MonkeyBoy said:
As the others have been saying.... Nadal is competitive with Novak on clay, and brutalized by him everywhere else. Let's see if Nadal can record a victory on the concrete, and then we can talk.
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Djokovic only barely won the epic 2012 Australian Open final against Nadal....by far Djoker's favorite surface and slam. And this was when Djoker was supposedly "in Nadal's head".Nadal may have actually choked away the win in Australia. Hardly "brutalized". These two are equally matched everywhere, and while Nole had a nice long streak of wins, those days are over.

Nadal nearly took him out in Australia. Not to mention he beat him to win the US Open in 2010. Nadal remains competitive with Djokovic on all-surfaces, and it's basically a toss-up now as to who will win anywhere (Australia 2012 and today's semis show that. Both matches were basically mirror images of each other, except the victors were reversed).
 
If Rafa wins another US Open and Australian Open, and gets more weeks at #1, he'll have a case. If he wins another Wimbledon in addition, It will be stronger still.

If he gets to 15-16 Majors and 200+ weeks @#1, with dominant records against Federer, Djokovic and Murray, there's a case to be made there. After this return from his injuries, it's stupid to count him out at only 27.
 
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BigServer1 said:
If Rafa wins another US Open and Australian Open, and gets more weeks at #1, he'll have a case. If he wins another Wimbledon in addition, It will be stronger still.

If he gets to 18 Majors and 200+ weeks @#1, with dominant records against Federer, Djokovic and Murray, there's a case to be made there. After this return from his injuries, it's stupid to count him out at only 27.
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Edited it for you.
 
ScottleeSV said:
Edited it for you.
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I disagree. Major count alone isn't the sole determining factor. If it was, people wouldn't count Laver and Borg among the GOAT candidates.

If Rafa manages to win each major twice, and has 8-9 FOs and a couple more years @#1, he'll have an argument for GOAT, the way Federer, Laver, Borg and Sampras do.
 
It DEFINITELY is.

Nadal will not let Nole consistently dominate him again. He always seems to get that W back. Beat Nole in the last two French Opens.

Meanwhile, Fed hasn't been able to best Nadal at a slam in SIX years.

After 2007 (when Nadal hit his prime) it was over Roger in the h2h with Nadal.

Nole is much closer to his peak level of play than Rafa and Rafa is still managing to get big wins over Nole. Even with a million more miles on his body


Rafa owns the h2h vs. ALL main rivals. Fed cannot say that
 
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Nadal now leads in the head-to-head 20-15.

Here's some other cool facts:

- Only male pair in Open Era history to have met in each of the four Grand Slam finals.
- Only male pair in Open Era history to have met in four Grand Slam finals in a row.
- Record of 10 finals played against each other in Masters 1000 (shared with Federer-Nadal) .
- Record of 19 matches played against each other in Masters 1000.
- Djokovic is the player with most career wins against Nadal. Nadal is also the player with most career wins against Djokovic.
 
BigServer1 said:
I disagree. Major count alone isn't the sole determining factor. If it was, people wouldn't count Laver and Borg among the GOAT candidates.

If Rafa manages to win each major twice, and has 8-9 FOs and a couple more years @#1, he'll have an argument for GOAT, the way Federer, Laver, Borg and Sampras do.
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There is a reason most people call Laver, Sampras and Borg as GOAT Candidates and Federer as GOAT.

That is due to the major count and weeks at number 1, which show the mastery over the whole field.
 
Let's clarify.

Nadal is not the GOAT.

He is a GOAT contender, because he has an uncompleted future career and has won a career grand slam (golden slam, actually)

Of course he is the clay GOAT, duh.

He is better than the actual GOAT (Fed), but is not as good as Nole 2.0 (when both are at their best). Though Nole's career is farther from GOAT than Rafa's.
 
octogon said:
Djokovic only barely won the epic 2012 Australian Open final against Nadal....by far Djoker's favorite surface and slam. And this was when Djoker was supposedly "in Nadal's head".Nadal may have actually choked away the win in Australia. Hardly "brutalized". These two are equally matched everywhere, and while Nole had a nice long streak of wins, those days are over.

Nadal nearly took him out in Australia. Not to mention he beat him to win the US Open in 2010. Nadal remains competitive with Djokovic on all-surfaces, and it's basically a toss-up now as to who will win anywhere (Australia 2012 and today's semis show that. Both matches were basically mirror images of each other, except the victors were reversed).
Click to expand...

But Rafa only barely won this semi against Djoko as well...on by far Rafa's favorite surface and slam. It's very close between the two...and aside from those two instances, Djoker has been doing more of the winning recently (within last few years, post-2011). I'd say Nole still has the advantage and upper hand in the rivalry now (with edge to Rafa on clay).

11 of 17 most recent meetings favoring Nole says a lot.
 
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octogon said:
Djokovic only barely won the epic 2012 Australian Open final against Nadal....by far Djoker's favorite surface and slam. And this was when Djoker was supposedly "in Nadal's head".Nadal may have actually choked away the win in Australia. Hardly "brutalized". These two are equally matched everywhere, and while Nole had a nice long streak of wins, those days are over.

Nadal nearly took him out in Australia. Not to mention he beat him to win the US Open in 2010. Nadal remains competitive with Djokovic on all-surfaces, and it's basically a toss-up now as to who will win anywhere (Australia 2012 and today's semis show that. Both matches were basically mirror images of each other, except the victors were reversed).
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I'll give you this point to an extend. But AO2012 and FO2013 aren't exact mirror images, as in Australian, Djokovic had 24 hours rest off a 5 hour match with Murray, whereas Nadal had 48 hours of beauty sleep after a 4 setter with Federer.
 
90's Clay said:
It DEFINITELY is.

Nadal will not let Nole consistently dominate him again. He always seems to get that W back. Beat Nole in the last two French Opens.

Meanwhile, Fed hasn't been able to best Nadal at a slam in SIX years.

After 2007 (when Nadal hit his prime) it was over Roger in the h2h with Nadal.

Nole is much closer to his peak level of play than Rafa and Rafa is still managing to get big wins over Nole. Even with a million more miles on his body


Rafa owns the h2h vs. ALL main rivals. Fed cannot say that
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lol please.

Nadal is still in his peak years.
 
It does enhance his credentials, yes, but I'd like to see him beat him over 5 on another surface before really getting carried away. We know Rafa is very much at home in Paris.
 
The_Order said:
Fed still hasn't beat Nadal in any major since 2007 :oops:
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yes, and you won't find me starting a thread saying the nadal matches have enhanced fed's GOAT credentials ...:twisted:

fed has beat nole on clay, HC, grass since 2011, murray has beat him on grass & HC, nadal only on clay ..

nadal has done very well to thrwart djoker 2011 onwards on clay, but he needs wins outside of clay .
 
so the King has won 4 of the last 5 matches vs Joko. Impressive!
 
Well if this wasn't clay I would've said probably. The conditions were heavily in favour of Ralph for a couple of reasons:

1) It was the hottest day of the tournament from what I've read and we know who that favours.

2) The courts were watered in sets 2 and 4(when they should've watered them for all the sets as they USUALLY do) and the results of the same are quite clear.

Even after Novak got screwed by Pascal Maria, by the officials who didn't water the courts at the beginning of the fifth, Ralph barely edged it.
 
You gotta give Nadal a lot of credit for the improvements he made in his game over the years.
He initially was just a clay court player. But he proved he could actually play very well on Grass also, and made it to 3 Wimbledon Finals in a row in 2006, 2007, and 2008, and again in 2011.
Then Nadal made progress in his HardCourt game, and won the Australian Open against Federer in 2009. Then he won the US Open in 2010 defeating Djokovic in the Final.
Furthermore, Rafa made the Australian Open Final again in 2012, losing in the epic 5-setter to Djokovic.(Along the way, Rafa dismantled Federer in the Semis). And Rafa made the Finals of the US Open again in 2011, losing to Djokovic again in an intense 4 sets.
Even at this year's Indian Wells, Nadal beat Federer in the Semis, and beat Del Potro to win that Tournament.

So, this is all substantial proof that Nadal is not just a great Clay Courter any more.
He kicks butt on all surfaces.
 
NikeWilson said:
You gotta give Nadal a lot of credit for the improvements he made in his game over the years.
He initially was just a clay court player. But he proved he could actually play very well on Grass also, and made it to 3 Wimbledon Finals in a row in 2006, 2007, and 2008, and again in 2011.
Then Nadal made progress in his HardCourt game, and won the Australian Open against Federer in 2009. Then he won the US Open in 2010 defeating Djokovic in the Final.
Furthermore, Rafa made the Australian Open Final again in 2012, losing in the epic 5-setter to Djokovic.(Along the way, Rafa dismantled Federer in the Semis). And Rafa made the Finals of the US Open again in 2011, losing to Djokovic again in an intense 4 sets.
Even at this year's Indian Wells, Nadal beat Federer in the Semis, and beat Del Potro to win that Tournament.

So, this is all substantial proof that Nadal is not just a great Clay Courter any more.
He kicks butt on all surfaces.
Click to expand...

Don't forget WIM2010.
 
NikeWilson said:
You gotta give Nadal a lot of credit for the improvements he made in his game over the years.
He initially was just a clay court player. But he proved he could actually play very well on Grass also, and made it to 3 Wimbledon Finals in a row in 2006, 2007, and 2008, and again in 2011.
Then Nadal made progress in his HardCourt game, and won the Australian Open against Federer in 2009. Then he won the US Open in 2010 defeating Djokovic in the Final.
Furthermore, Rafa made the Australian Open Final again in 2012, losing in the epic 5-setter to Djokovic.(Along the way, Rafa dismantled Federer in the Semis). And Rafa made the Finals of the US Open again in 2011, losing to Djokovic again in an intense 4 sets.
Even at this year's Indian Wells, Nadal beat Federer in the Semis, and beat Del Potro to win that Tournament.

So, this is all substantial proof that Nadal is not just a great Clay Courter any more.
He kicks butt on all surfaces.
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He also won the Olympic singles Gold medal on hard-courts. :)
 
abmk said:
yes, and you won't find me starting a thread saying the nadal matches have enhanced fed's GOAT credentials ...:twisted:
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Of course I won't find you doing that, Federer has never beat Nadal at a major since 2007 WIM. The difference here is, Nadal HAS defeated Novak in a major since 2011. Federer needed to fight back from adversity and find a way against his main rival for you to even think about starting a thread like that.

abmk said:
fed has beat nole on clay, HC, grass since 2011, murray has beat him on grass & HC, nadal only on clay ..
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So? Is clay not a valid surface? Since 2012, the only major Novak has beat Nadal in was the 2012AO and that was just barely as well. It's kind of hard to beat Novak in a HC major when you didn't play USO2012 or AO13.

abmk said:
nadal has done very well to thrwart djoker 2011 onwards on clay, but he needs wins outside of clay .
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It'll happen eventually, remember the old line "Nadal hasn't won a HC Masters in 4 years" lol, who would've thought Rafa would end up taking IW this year?

I'm pretty sure Rafa will beat Novak if they meet at Wimbledon this year (unless one of them gets injured).
 
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The_Order said:
Of course I won't find you doing that, Federer has never beat Nadal at a major since 2007 WIM. The difference here is, Nadal HAS defeated Novak in a major since 2011. Federer needed to fight back from adversity and find a way against his main rival for you to even think about starting a thread like that.



So? Is clay not a valid surface? Since 2012, the only major Novak has beat Nadal in was the 2012AO and that was just barely as well. It's kind of hard to beat Novak in a HC major when you didn't play USO2012 or AO13.



It'll happen eventually, remember the old line "Nadal hasn't won a HC Masters in 4 years" lol, who would've thought Rafa would end up taking IW this year?

I'm pretty sure Rafa will beat Novak if they meet at Wimbledon this year (unless one of them gets injured).
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yeah right. silly bandwagoners like you will be put to rest once Nole dominates rest of 2013
 
Nadal doesn't have GOAT credentials, not yet anyway. Luckily for Nadal Djokovic isn't 5 years younger than he is, otherwise the rivalry would become very onesided in a couple of years.
 
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