The Djokovic rivalry is enhancing Nadal's GOAT credentials

[abmk]

Of course I won't find you doing that, Federer has never beat Nadal at a major since 2007 WIM. The difference here is, Nadal HAS defeated Novak in a major since 2011. Federer needed to fight back from adversity and find a way against his main rival for you to even think about starting a thread like that.



So? Is clay not a valid surface? Since 2012, the only major Novak has beat Nadal in was the 2012AO and that was just barely as well. It's kind of hard to beat Novak in a HC major when you didn't play USO2012 or AO13.



It'll happen eventually, remember the old line "Nadal hasn't won a HC Masters in 4 years" lol, who would've thought Rafa would end up taking IW this year?

I'm pretty sure Rafa will beat Novak if they meet at Wimbledon this year (unless one of them gets injured).

when did I say clay was not a valid surface ? That is rafa's strongest. While wins there are good, he needs to win outside of his strongest surface as well.

He hasn't won outside of clay vs djoker for 2 and half years in 5 meetings. The other surfaces count too.

since 2012, rafa-nole have only met at AO & FO @ majors and that's mainly due to rafa, not djokovic's fault.

he did lose to djokovic at three non-RG slams in a row, wim 11, USO 11 and AO 12.

 

[PSNELKE]

Nadal is just a clay GOAT who helped puncture Fed's GOAT status. lets leave it at that. Nadal is not GOAT overall unless his slams are more evenly distributed across different surfaces.

Like Fed's with that one major win on clay?

 

[pds999]

Nadal doesn't have GOAT credentials, not yet anyway. Luckily for Nadal Djokovic isn't 5 years younger than he is, otherwise the rivalry would become very onesided in a couple of years.

That's an absurd post because if Djokovic was 5 years younger he would have been blitzed every time he and Nadal had met until now.

 

[pds999]

when did I say clay was not a valid surface ? That is rafa's strongest. While wins there are good, he needs to win outside of his strongest surface as well.

He hasn't won outside of clay vs djoker for 2 and half years in 5 meetings. The other surfaces count too.

since 2012, rafa-nole have only met at AO & FO @ majors and that's mainly due to rafa, not djokovic's fault.

he did lose to djokovic at three non-RG slams in a row, wim 11, USO 11 and AO 12.

True, but during that stretch Djokovic was also beating him on clay too. I think the rivarly is a lot more balanced now with no one having the definite edge. If they played at the AO tomorrow I would expect a similarly close match.

 

[The_Order]

when did I say clay was not a valid surface ? That is rafa's strongest. While wins there are good, he needs to win outside of his strongest surface as well.

When you say stuff like "only on clay" it implies that clay isn't valid or that it's some foregone conclusion that Rafa is going to win on that surface when in reality Novak has beat him on clay 3 times since 2011.

He hasn't won outside of clay vs djoker for 2 and half years in 5 meetings. The other surfaces count too.

And the IW, Miami and AO12 matches all could've gone either way, it wasn't a surface issue that Rafa was dealing with, it was a combination of Rafa's serve vanishing in the IW final and then Novak being in his head. Since Nadal broke the streak of matches lost to Novak they haven't met outside of clay yet so we'll just have to wait and see what happens there.

since 2012, rafa-nole have only met at AO & FO @ majors and that's mainly due to rafa, not djokovic's fault.

he did lose to djokovic at three non-RG slams in a row, wim 11, USO 11 and AO 12.

And Federer did lose to Nadal at RG, WIM and AO, so what's your point? This isn't 2011 anymore...

Funny how you keep bringing up Novak's wins against Nadal but you fail to address how Federer hasn't been able to beat Nadal at ANY major since WIM07. Fed couldn't find a way to beat Rafa no matter the surface, Nadal beat him on clay at RG, he beat him on the grass at Wimbledon and he beat him on the HC at the Australian Open.

FACT Federer was 27 when they contested the AO09 final. FACT Nadal is 27 at the time of beating Novak. So the age excuse doesn't count especially considering Nadal has had to battle much more threatening injuries than Federer had to at the time.

The OP is correct, by being able to find a way against a guy that was owning him on the big stage, Nadal has enhanced his credentials.

 

[abmk]

When you say stuff like "only on clay" it implies that clay isn't valid or that it's some foregone conclusion that Rafa is going to win on that surface when in reality Novak has beat him on clay 3 times since 2011.



And the IW, Miami and AO12 matches all could've gone either way, it wasn't a surface issue that Rafa was dealing with, it was a combination of Rafa's serve vanishing in the IW final and then Novak being in his head. Since Nadal broke the streak of matches lost to Novak they haven't met outside of clay yet so we'll just have to wait and see what happens there.



And Federer did lose to Nadal at RG, WIM and AO, so what's your point? This isn't 2011 anymore...

Funny how you keep bringing up Novak's wins against Nadal but you fail to address how Federer hasn't been able to beat Nadal at ANY major since WIM07. Fed couldn't find a way to beat Rafa no matter the surface, Nadal beat him on clay at RG, he beat him on the grass at Wimbledon and he beat him on the HC at the Australian Open.

FACT Federer was 27 when they contested the AO09 final. FACT Nadal is 27 at the time of beating Novak. So the age excuse doesn't count especially considering Nadal has had to battle much more threatening injuries than Federer had to at the time.

The OP is correct, by being able to find a way against a guy that was owning him on the big stage, Nadal has enhanced his credentials.

when I say wins on clay, it means that much only.

how was novak in nadal's head in IW or miami 2011 ? and IW wasn't really close after the first set.

nadal at his best slam beat djokovic at his 3rd best slam yesterday

AO 09 - federer's 3rd best slam vs nadal's 3rd best slam
wim 08 - federer's best slam vs nadal's 2nd best slam

beating nadal on grass is a tougher proposition than beating djokovic on clay, yes ?

even more so considering nadal was at best in wim 08 final and while djokovic's fight and resolve was admirable ; game-wise , he was lacking by quite a bit yesterday

its not an even comparison at all.

while the win does enhance nadal's legacy, he still has to do considerably better off clay ; get a win vs djoker off clay.

a bit ironical that you mention injuries because rafa is fully fit now after his comeback whereas federer was having back problems and his serve was clearly affected from paris 2008 till about rome 2009 ...

 

[The_Order]

when I say wins on clay, it means that much only.

how was novak in nadal's head in IW or miami 2011 ? and IW wasn't really close after the first set.

nadal at his best slam beat djokovic at his 3rd best slam yesterday

AO 09 - federer's 3rd best slam vs nadal's 3rd best slam
wim 08 - federer's best slam vs nadal's 2nd best slam

beating nadal on grass is a tougher proposition than beating djokovic on clay, yes ?

even more so considering nadal was at best in wim 08 final and while djokovic's fight and resolve was admirable ; game-wise , he was lacking by quite a bit yesterday

its not an even comparison at all.

while the win does enhance nadal's legacy, he still has to do considerably better off clay ; get a win vs djoker off clay.

a bit ironical that you mention injuries because rafa is fully fit now after his comeback whereas federer was having back problems and his serve was clearly affected from paris 2008 till about rome 2009 ...

Thank you very much, the truth has finally come out of you. Let's face it, we both know Nadal was better in the WIM08 final than 07, it's just that in your desperation, you had to try and make the case that Nadal wasn't any better in 08 to boost up Fed's 07 victory.

It's ok abmk, the truth always comes out and right now you must feel like a complete tool by contradicting yourself. After all, how can Nadal be at his best in WIM08 if he was better in WIM07...

I already said the IW win was because Nadal's serve vanished. After that IW win, Novak gained confidence against Rafa and took the momentum into the Miami final.

And this 3rd slam, first slam stuff is crap. Wimbledon is Fed's best slam and he got thumped by Berdych and Tsonga, You judge it by how well they play on the day and Novak played some of his best tennis from the latter stages of the 4th set onwards yesterday. Nadal was forced to hit his way to victory, Novak certainly didn't hand it to him.

 

[pds999]

As the others have been saying.... Nadal is competitive with Novak on clay, and brutalized by him everywhere else. Let's see if Nadal can record a victory on the concrete, and then we can talk.

Hardly brutalised. Their last hard court match up Nadal was the better player and should have won that 5th set.

 

[abmk]

Thank you very much, the truth has finally come out of you. Let's face it, we both know Nadal was better in the WIM08 final than 07, it's just that in your desperation, you had to try and make the case that Nadal wasn't any better in 08 to boost up Fed's 07 victory.

It's ok abmk, the truth always comes out and right now you must feel like a complete tool by contradicting yourself. After all, how can Nadal be at his best in WIM08 if he was better in WIM07...

what a load of cr*p. When I say best level, doesn't mean that is for one match in a player's career... it means in and around that level - being close to it ... ..

nadal played at his best in both wim 07 and wim 08 final

you are just desperately trying hard to get out of a quicksand here. LOL !

I already said the IW win was because Nadal's serve vanished. After that IW win, Novak gained confidence against Rafa and took the momentum into the Miami final.

one win on HC gave him that much confidence ? really ? considering he had beaten rafa plenty of times on HC before, all in straights ...

And this 3rd slam, first slam stuff is crap. Wimbledon is Fed's best slam and he got thumped by Berdych and Tsonga, You judge it by how well they play on the day and Novak played some of his best tennis from the latter stages of the 4th set onwards yesterday. Nadal was forced to hit his way to victory, Novak certainly didn't hand it to him.

never said novak handed it to him , did I ? you mention novak's play from ending stages of 4th set, but what about till then ?

the best, 2nd and 3rd best slam is not cr*p. It is what it is.

to an extent, it does comes to on the day, nadal in wim 08 and AO 09 finals was quite clearly better than novak in RG 2013 SF

so again, its not an even comparision . you fail again ...

 

[abmk]

Hardly brutalised. Their last hard court match up Nadal was the better player and should have won that 5th set.

not even close. djokovic was clearly the better player and should've closed it down in the 4th. was up 5-3 in the 4th set breaker and missed a sitter FH at the net that would've given him 3 MPs ...

djokovic won 193 points, nadal 176 points
djokovic had 57 winners, 69 UEs
nadal had 44 winners, 71 UEs

djokovic had broken 7 times, nadal 4 times

 

[NatF]

That's an absurd post because if Djokovic was 5 years younger he would have been blitzed every time he and Nadal had met until now.

Novak from 2007-2008 was very good on hardcourts. Much better than his 09-10 incarnation. Besides that he also played very well in the clay season 08 up to the clay masters in 09.

 

[tennis_hack]

Don't know how Djokovic is benefiting Nadal when he stopped him from tying Sampras's Slams won in 2011.

Also indicative that Nadal had no answers for his closest rival when said rival was at their peak year.

 

[The_Order]

what a load of cr*p. When I say best level, doesn't mean that is for one match in a player's career... it means in and around that level - being close to it ... ..

nadal played at his best in both wim 07 and wim 08 final

you are just desperately trying hard to get out of a quicksand here. LOL !

Hahaha as usual you have to resort to back pedalling, I love it :grin:

He can't play at his best in both finals. It's just not possible, best means best, there is no equal. LOL we don't have quicksand in Melbourne, just admit you stuffed up.

one win on HC gave him that much confidence ? really ? considering he had beaten rafa plenty of times on HC before, all in straights ...

The matches were what? About a week apart? Of course Novak was going to take that momentum into the Miami final. Not to mention that match could've gone either way really and imo it was after that match that he really got into Nadal's head.

never said novak handed it to him , did I ? you mention novak's play from ending stages of 4th set, but what about till then ?

the best, 2nd and 3rd best slam is not cr*p. It is what it is.

to an extent, it does comes to on the day, nadal in wim 08 and AO 09 finals was quite clearly better than novak in RG 2013 SF

so again, its not an even comparision . you fail again ...

And Federer was better in WIM08 and AO09 than Nadal was yesterday. Only in the middle part of the 5th set Nadal was playing his best. The rest of the performance prior to that 5th set was patchy from his part too, he lost 4 games in a row in the second set and he lost his serve twice in the 4th from nerves. He also started the 5th set poorly.

So, this you fail crap you keeping barking on about is quite hilarious.

 

[The Dark Knight]

Who would have thought that after Djokovic started going rampant in 2011 and beat Nadal 7 times straight.

For all the world, it looked like Nadal had finally run into his "Kryptonite". That Djokovic would be to Nadal, what Nadal was to Federer. People were even wondering whether Nadal would ever be able to beat Djokovic in a slam again. Now he's done it the last two times they've played in a slam.

Federer never showed the same sort of resilance and resolve in coping with his greatest rival. The fact that Nadal is the dominant player in what many consider to be the two greatest rivalries in the open era is surely a big argument in favor Nadal's canidacy for GOAT status (as will his upcoming 12th slam win on Sunday).

Djokovic is an incredibly difficult match-up for Nadal. Yet he is still finding a way to triumph on the biggest stage against his nemesis. That's what GOAT contenders do.

This is a great realization ! Did you come up with it or did you read it somewhere? It's really smart .

 

[Backspin1183]

LOL.

losing 7 finals in a row and losing 3 grand slam finals in a row.

Lets talk if nadal can beat novak outside of france.

As the others have been saying.... Nadal is competitive with Novak on clay, and brutalized by him everywhere else. Let's see if Nadal can record a victory on the concrete, and then we can talk.

You were saying...?

 

[TheTruth]

Octagon and The Order...

You both got it so right.

I wonder if those who were talking about off clay have now changed their tune, or if the goalposts will be moved yet again?

Interesting.

 

[Chico]

I'll give you this point to an extend. But AO2012 and FO2013 aren't exact mirror images, as in Australian, Djokovic had 24 hours rest off a 5 hour match with Murray, whereas Nadal had 48 hours of beauty sleep after a 4 setter with Federer.

Nadal ALWAYS gets favorable schedules over Djokovic. It is practically the rule on all tournaments.

For example, the same situation is on WTF. Nadal's group will have a full day of rest before SFs while Novak's will have to play day after day without any rest.

Similar was on FO, Montreal, USO, ...

Not to mention cakewalk draws and direct official help during matches (Pascal Maria, ...). It is just way too much.

 

[Chico]

This all being said. Nada is no GOAT candidate and nothing Djokovic does could contribute to Nadal's false and nonexistent "GOAT credentials".