Purestriker
Legend
You were a 3.0C and was able to appeal to 4.0?
The dreaded EOY Rating thread
- Thread starter Brilliant
- Start date
Purestriker
Legend
Then you were really out of level. That’s a big jump for 11 months.
E.T.
Rookie
No, I appealed from 3.0 to 3.5. I will play on both 3.5 and 4.0 teams this summer. The team we played today was a 3.5 team and one of the women had just gotten bumped to 4.0 when the new year end ratings came out, but she is able to finish out this season on her existing 3.5 team.
Purestriker
Legend
Got it. That makes more sense.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I captained a team and mostly it was a matter of who could show up that day.
you are right that *usta* mixed is a different game because of how bad their rating system is. But usta chooses to make it stupid. It is not inherent to mixed doubles. Mixed doubles could be a way to double the number of available players so you can have competitive matches throughout the country and. It just a few tennis hotspots. But usta doesn’t care about this whole adult rec league stuff that we spend so much time on these forums talking about.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Yes, they do care. The way USTA does mixed gets more people playing. Why?Adult men do NOT like being on the court with women who as good or better than them. They just will not sign up and play the league. Boomer males do not want to be shown up by middle aged women. That why you see the ratings differences and groups like 7.0 or 8.0, etc.
Purestriker
Legend
I got no problem playing with anyone (female or nails) better than me. I always learn something and most males in mixed go after the female. Jokes on them when she is the stronger player.
She explained her story earlier. For 3.0's who are beginners to tennis who have a lot of natural athletic ability and have been practicing diligently over a year, especially women, it's not implausible to advance from 3.0 (as a total beginner) to a high 3.5 where playing up to 4.0 is not a detriment to the competition within a year. If what she has been saying in this discussion is true, this shouldn't be a problem.
The USTA does care, and your proposals are at least as stupid as what they do.
Yeah I realized after the fact she was the one that said she had like a 6'11 wingspan. In the women's game, I could see her already being a strong 4.0.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Not in my area. The men don’t want to play usta mixed because the women are not as good. And many women won’t play mixed because they think the men hit the ball too hard.
the other issue is the two different systems are not uniform. I don’t think there is that much difference between a top mens 3.0 and a top womens 3.0. But there is a big difference between a top men 4.0 and a top female 4.0. So these teams become even more lopsided because it is to your advantage to have a 4.0 male and a 3.0 female. You will simply have more skill on the court then if you have a 4.0 female with a 3.0 male. Even though the latter set up is a more even pairing.
The main reason to play mixed is you have 2xs the number of players to make a team with. So you would think there would be many more such teams and in my community there are more mixed doubles than regular league matches. It’s just they aren’t that fun due to the big mismatches.
I play in many coed non-usta matches and clinics. None of the women that are actually playing at the same level complain the men hit the ball too hard and none of the men pretend they are better then every woman in the country. Honestly I can’t imagine any adult rec male boomer thinking they are better than every middle aged female in the country. I guess such a person might exist in such a big country but the entire system shouldn’t be altered up to accommodate a few nut jobs.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Having everyone on a single rating system is not stupid. It’s not 1950s Catholic school anymore. Having people in the same rating pool and system will not only allow people to have many more competitive matches, it will greatly improve the accuracy of the ratings for both men and women.
Far from expanding opportunities for mixed like you think it will, it will completely destroy all mixed from 8.0 up because of the scarcity of women who are equivalent to a 4.0 or higher male rating. The ratings are set so that the percentages of players by gender are (roughly) equal, so that there are the same number of players available in each gender at each level.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
That would only be a problem if they combined the pools and rating system in a stupid way.
If they were to combine the ratings they should Match men into the women’s catagories and add a few higher levels. So many men would simply get bumped a level. There are plenty of 4.0 women that could play mixed.
Would this mean a male who is the equivalent of a female 5.0 can no longer play with female 3.0? Yes but that is stupid anyway.
I wish Mixed leagues would be run like Adult leagues: Mixed 3.0, Mixed 3.5, Mixed 4.0, etc. Play up if you'd like but none of this 2x difference in rating. It would be more competitive in my opinion.
What makes you think people would rather play 100% coed leagues instead of the current setup?
I for one have no desire whatsoever to play in a co-ed league. I'll play mixed with my wife but other than that have no desire to play against the fairer sex.
Purestriker
Legend
Agreed. @Moon Shooter have you looked into starting a World Team Tennis league in your area? Would address some of what you don't like about USTA.
I think women would be more adverse to having all coed leagues. Imagine being a 3.0 lady and some jerk gets to self rate as a 3.0 and just crushes them all.
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silverwyvern4
Semi-Pro
If Tennis Record doesn't update soon, I'm going to cancel my subscription
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
2xs as many people to make a team. More accurate ratings so matches are more competitive.
That is the problem with the current mixed doubles system. If we all had the same rating system it wouldn’t be an issue.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Are you being sarcastic? So if you show up to play tennis and a female player who is just as good as the other guys is filling in for a guy are thinking you wish you didn’t show up?
Is it an ego thing that you are afraid to acknowledge women are as good or better than you?
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I am likely going to captain 2 usta teams. Yes I think usta makes many bad choices that make these leagues worse but herding cats into a whole new system and getting everyone to sign up is too much work.
I am hopeful that usta will sort out wtn and have more events with that. But again adult rec tennis is peanuts to usta so they have been taking years to even dump the data into the algorithm. I remain somewhat hopeful they will sort it out.
How low does participation have to drop before they realize they are not offering services that people think are worth the money? Is everything fine if 85% of American tennis players think usta are not worth it? Do we have to get to 95% rejection and then we might think maybe they could do better?
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
USTA is the rating system and competitive organization of record for adult rec tennis. No one hangs banners at their club for UTR team league titles or ultimate. You are what USTA says you are. End of discussion. Play whatever leagues or “social/competitive” matches you want, but if the USTA says you are a 3.5 then you are a 3.5.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I believe usta specifically denied this. And it would be very stupid to adjust the ratings to try to accomplish that anyway.
Where are you getting this information?
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
sure usta gets hundreds of millions of dollars because it is the official American tennis org. So of course no one can compete.
UTR with it’s stupid 12 month cliff fluctuates every day. So of course it is not going to have a decent league system. How can somone know what rating bracket they belong in when their rating can fluctuate so much every day? It wasn’t designed for adult rec tennis.
I won't even play a match with my wife. lol.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Ha
I play with my wife but I understand that can be an issue.
But not wanting to play with females at all? I mean are these people for real? I remember viktor koichnoi seemed upset when he lost a chess blitz match to Sophia Polgar. But that was several decades ago and he was already a dinosaur then.
and look I’m not trying to bash korchnoi (he may have just been upset or dislike Sophia for other reasons who knows, he was from a very different time and place). But I find it surprising that American men in 2022 still have a hard time believing women can play a game like tennis as well or better than they do. I mean especially when we are talking about amateur men tennis players. Let’s be real and show some respect for people with skills regardless of gender.
This seems so odd I feel like I must be misunderstanding.
Not at all sarcastic and not at all an ego thing I know there are plenty of women that are way better than me as a 3.5 male.
dsp9753
Semi-Pro
As a 4.5 guy, I have played with and against many advanced female players including ex college players. From 4.0 to 5.5. Men and women just play different esp as they get better and better. At the 4.5 level, I play many types of advanced men players including guys with huge and/or spinny and/or tricky serves. Men are also taller and quicker at the net. Much better at net play, covering the court, and net positioning. Females who can and do play like this are very rare. I can probably count on one hand the number of female serve and volleyers. All the 5.0 ladies I know are great and consistent baseliners but there is not significant play style differences amongst them.
If you combined the ratings, there essentially would not be any 4.5 females. (Please note, I am not saying all men are better then women, just that women who played at the same level as a 4.5 man or better are very very very rare).
I find the current mixed system to be just fine. Any proposed system with ratings, they all have their own inherent pros and cons. An actual combined rating system would distribute the ratings 2 far across a wide gap.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
It doesn't matter how many women would compete in 4.5 mens competition. The vast majority of adult rec tennis players are below that level. The men who are top 4.5 now would be 5.0 or 5.5 they could play in a 10.0 league with 4.5 women. So I just don't see a problem. In fact we now have 5.5 men playing with 4.5 women. The problem is if we look at it from the women's rating it is a 6.0 guy playing a 4.5 woman. So it is just making a bad situation worse.
But the thing is the whole system for the other 80% of players won't be all wonky where almost every mixed doubles match unless there is a a full point difference in play everyone is just trying to hit the ball to the female player. If there are 2 3.5 players and they achieved that rating on the same scale then you have a much better chance of actually having a match where everyone is competitive.
Purestriker
Legend
You mean UTR? TR is totally different than UTR.
Purestriker
Legend
Smart....nothing good comes from that unless you are wanting to separate.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Well then why did you say this?
What difference does it make whether the person hitting the ball back is a man or a woman? I honestly don't understand. Will you play ping pong with a female? What about pickleball?
If people say they want to be on the same team with others of their gender, I can understand. My text logs with my all male team is very different than the text logs of my mixed teams. I'm not saying there is no difference between men and women.
And even from a tennis perspective I have no reason to doubt DSP that men may approach the net more etc. I can't speak to that. But in my area we are struggling to get leagues going and it just seems odd that we can't play tennis with the other half of tennis players because they are put in a different universe. The different rating systems and the huge ranges for men's levels just makes usta mixed doubles a mess.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I thought he meant TR and was being funny. But maybe he meant UTR.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
And just to be clear you don't have to play 100% coed tennis if they combine the rating pools. You can still have your all guys team. It would just give large parts of the country an easier time to find players to fill the rosters.
dsp9753
Semi-Pro
Thats my point. Everyone at all levels can already play currently today. In your proposed solution, you would be cutting players out of the mixed pool since they would be either too good or too bad. Mixed matches today are already competitive. Women/men who are the top of their level are already doing well in mixed despite what the current tennis meta/strategy is.
In your proposed solution, all 4.5s would be equal in skill level. But in reality, that means the percent of female players above 4.0 would be in the single digit percentages. You would effectively kill the 9.0 and 10.0 leagues. They are already hard enough to field teams for as is.
It's really easy for him to say as a 3.0 guy who wouldn't have to deal with the negatives of his proposal.
I play tennis to hang out with my buddies. I have no desire to spend significant chunks of time with women that aren't my wife.
Jack the Hack
Hall of Fame
I'm going to disagree with you on that broad general statement.
In my mind, the best 9.0 mixed teams come from combos where the woman is a solid 5.0 and the guy is a solid 4.0. In mixed, you generally pick on the female player when you need to win a point, but if she's the better player, it becomes tougher.
The best mixed partner I ever had was a woman that was slightly chubby and didn't look particularly athletic, but she was actually a state high school and NCAA singles champion. Our opponents would always be blasting shots at her, but she was like a wall. (For clarity, we were playing Open mixed tournaments back then, so I think we were both in the 5.0 range. But my point is that she was better than me, and I had no problem with that!)
Maybe the male insecurity stuff happens at the lower levels?
The 357th time you've said the same stupid thing has also failed to convince me.
I'm sure your wife appreciates that. Imagine how she would feel if you were out every night and weekend playing tennis with the ladies as she spends her free time alone, wondering which philly you're chatting up next.
Most guys play Mixed tennis because they yearn for female attention. It's an ostensibly legit way to get your flirt on. Maybe you'll even score!
There is no reason a man needs to play with women of the same level to improve his game. It's no different than playing down one level. Don't yell at me. I'm just the messenger. USTA has addressed the male/female rating disparity numerous times. A 4.0 male is equivalent to a 4.5 woman. We all know it's true.
I actually lost my first adult league match last season because my partner couldn't stop playing like he was playing 6.0/7.0 mixed. You can keep making cute lobs to 3.5 or 3.0 ladies. It doesn't work against two 4.0 men.
We crushed them the first set then they just started sitting back for the lobs in the second set and he fell apart.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
In my proposal there would be exactly the same number of 4.0 women as there are now. The percentage of 4.0 women would be exactly the same. The men would be bumped up based on where usta thinks the dynamic rating equates. The 9.0 and 10.0 leagues would be much fuller than they are now.
This is just dumb. The 5.0 that currently plays with a 4.0 at 9.0 is now a 6.0. Who does he play with at 11.0?
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
A 5.0 would be a 5.5 right? So he could play with a 4.5 female at 10.0 level. There would be many more players playing at 9.0. There would be exactly the same number of women and even more men in that group.
what about a 5.5 male that would be bumped to 6.0? Well yes that might be tough simply because there are very few players especially female players at that level. Why not just accept that reality? Distorting the rating just makes the skill disparate in mixed doubles even wider.
No the gap gets even bigger at the higher levels. At 5.0 nationals the guys had UTRs of 11. The ladies were 7 and 8s.
Your solution just shifts the problem to someone else. I'll never understand why you can't see it or refuse to admit it.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Honestly, I wish you luck in life but your lack of understanding isn’t my problem. I don’t know whether you are just angry at me personally for some reason, or what, but you are always in these rating threads expressing your hate and incomprehension.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
The problem is there are not that many rec adults with utr 11 ratings. The rating system neither “creates” or “solves” that problem. At that level usta can choose to continue to have men partner with women’s 6.0 or 6.5 equivalent ratings teaming up with with 4.0, 4.5 and 5.0 women if they would like. Nothing about having the ratings accurately reflect someone’s ability regardless of gender prevents that.
