The dreaded EOY Rating thread

[cks]

The question is though, you're more likely to live with a below average player being on your team than playing below level players on your team or opponents, right?

I guess it depends on what you want to get out of USTA league and how the captain wants to run their team. My captain does try to spread out matches to all players, while also trying to win lines and matches. He is more likely to play stronger players over weaker ones and we still have a hard time find members willing to play singles.

I'm sure you noticed just how wide each NTRP rating band can be during USTA league play. I've now played men's 3.0 and 3.5 USTA league, and I'm amazed how wide the skill level can be inside each band. I just got bump to 3.5 last December, so I'm on the bottom end of 3.5 now. I'm sure the other levels (4.0, 4.5) work the same with low, med, and strong players at each NTRP rating.

I do like practicing with med/high 3.5 players, that tend to have a better rally ball with a bit more pace and depth than men's 3.0.

 

[silverwyvern4]

FWIW, my M rating for her is a decent 3.5, so the 3.5M seems appropriate. She did go 3-3, all of the wins and losses in straight sets. But the wins rated quite well, two of them quite high, and they offset the losses being in 3.0 territory and she ended up a 3.5.

Note that her partner's rating was not that low. They just happened to play some opponents rated pretty high in a couple of the wins.

If a guy has a 3.5M rating and then decides to start playing men's league, and it asks him to self rate, can he self rate as a 3.0?

 

[Creighton]

If a guy has a 3.5M rating and then decides to start playing men's league, and it asks him to self rate, can he self rate as a 3.0?

No.He has to self rate as a 3.5 and attempt to appeal down.

 

[Moon Shooter]

The question is though, you're more likely to live with a below average player being on your team than playing below level players on your team or opponents, right?

That was not the question.
The question is whether people care about playing with others of the same gender or if they care about playing people of the same skill at tennis more. Then you started saying peoplego to clinics not because people are at the same level but because they like the coach. And the answer there is it depends on the type of clinic and how much you are getting instruction versus playing tennis or just doing drills.

if it is more like an actual match where you are getting little instruction and just playing tennis people care more about the level of the other players than the pro. That’s the point that is relevant to whether coed league tennis has a market.

 

[Creighton]

That was not the question.
The question is whether people care about playing with others of the same gender or if they care about playing people of the same skill at tennis more. Then you started saying peoplego to clinics not because people are at the same level but because they like the coach. And the answer there is it depends on the type of clinic and how much you are getting instruction versus playing tennis or just doing drills.

if it is more like an actual match where you are getting little instruction and just playing tennis people care more about the level of the other players than the pro. That’s the point that is relevant to whether coed league tennis has a market.

@cks are you choosing to go to coed clinics because it gives you more players at the same skill level?

 

[cks]

@cks are you choosing to go to coed clinics because it gives you more players at the same skill level?

Yes. I do tend to avoid clinics where I think the majority of participants are below me in skill level.

The coaching pro that runs the tennis clinics typically breaks down the 90 minutes session as follows.

• 1st 30: The coaching pro starts with short court, then warm up of ground strokes. Then he will feed balls for 1 to 2 additional drills to work on individual skills, like volley or overheads.
• 2nd 30: The coach feeds balls with four players on the courts (aka doubles) and sets some condition or constraint, then we play out the point and rotate positions.
• Last 30: We will warm up serves and play doubles points. He will watch and make suggestions on positions and strategy. Sometimes he will join in on the rotation of players.

 

[Creighton]

Yes. I do tend to avoid clinics where I think the majority of participants are below me in skill level.

The coaching pro that runs the tennis clinics typically breaks down the 90 minutes session as follows.

• 1st 30: The coaching pro starts with short court, then warm up of ground strokes. Then he will feed balls for 1 to 2 additional drills to work on individual skills, like volley or overheads.
• 2nd 30: The coach feeds balls with four players on the courts (aka doubles) and sets some condition or constraint, then we play out the point and rotate positions.
• Last 30: We will warm up serves and play doubles points. He will watch and make suggestions on positions and strategy. Sometimes he will join in on the rotation of players.

What's the breakdown of men and women in your clinics?

 

[cks]

What's the breakdown of men and women in your clinics?

My Monday clinic is typically just 100% men. We alternate Mondays between a 3.0 and 3.5 men's USTA team captained by one guy. If we are short players, we will open up the clinic to the other team.
The Tuesday clinic is a "drop-in" clinic, so you don't know who will attend in advance. When I do attend the drop-in, it could be as high as 50/50 men vs women or just all guys. It varies each time. Skill level is 3.0-3.5 women and 3.0-3.5 men. I don't think a 4.0 or higher player has ever attended when I was there.
Same coach runs a beginners "drop-in" clinic on Sunday night.

 

[Creighton]

My Monday clinic is typically just 100% men. We alternate Mondays between a 3.0 and 3.5 men's USTA team captained by one guy. If we are short players, we will open up the clinic to the other team.
The Tuesday clinic is a "drop-in" clinic, so you don't know who will attend in advance. When I do attend the drop-in, it could be as high as 50/50 men vs women or just all guys. It varies each time. Skill level is 3.0-3.5 women and 3.0-3.5 men. I don't think a 4.0 or higher player has ever attended when I was there.
Same coach runs a beginners "drop-in" clinic on Sunday night.

Which clinic do you prefer, Monday or Tuesday?

 

[cks]

Which clinic do you prefer, Monday or Tuesday?

Monday

 

[geddahon]

Well, guess now is a good time to start this good/bad/ugly "annual" subject again. Any over/under bets when End of Year Ratings will be out? Here are some sample dates based on history....

28 Nov (The Monday after T-giving) This was when USTA had their stuff together and weren't too too busy worrying about tweaking the ratings. Or

30 Nov The 2 day period of "Fluff" to go through their QA Dept. for "accurate" ratings. Or

1 Dec This date sounds good, it's neither Nov nor the first week of Dec. Or

5 Dec On average as of late this had been the usual date (two Mondays after T-giving).


I did just get a response from my Sectional Coordinator. He said " Nothing official but historically it’s been December 1."

Why is everyone so obsessed with rank? I am staying low as I can to develop my game and skill set so I can win at 97 without moving all that much. Hell no. You still want to win every year of your life. I promise. If you go up to slam ball without checking every shot for mastery and direction from a fixed or small location, I am not moving up. Put me at D3 rotating with random people getting my ass handed to me in mixed by 1.5 -2.0 rating points above. I am grateful. Only time they will play me.

 

[Moon Shooter]

So same coach but one clinic has players at his level the other has weaker players. He prefers the one with players his level even though they both have the same pro.

If you play a match (or clinic) with a substantially weaker team mate and the other team is focused on winning they will basically play keep away from you. I’m no great player but even I have left clinics thinking why did I go here? I have also had usta matches where it got to the point where I was running way over to my partners side of the court because at all costs they did not want to hit to me. I don’t think I am alone in thinking that is not fun.

But whether the other team plays “keep away” is not a matter of whether my teammate is a male or female. It is simply a matter of how good they are.

 

[cks]

Why is everyone so obsessed with rank?

I guess we humans like to know our pecking order.
And of course, it provides great content for TTW.

 

[Moon Shooter]

Why is everyone so obsessed with rank? I am staying low as I can to develop my game and skill set so I can win at 97 without moving all that much. Hell no. You still want to win every year of your life. I promise. If you go up to slam ball without checking every shot for mastery and direction from a fixed or small location, I am not moving up. Put me at D3 rotating with random people getting my ass handed to me in mixed by 1.5 -2.0 rating points above. I am grateful. Only time they will play me.

Was this post created by ai, or did you use google translate?

 

[naylor73]

So same coach but one clinic has players at his level the other has weaker players. He prefers the one with players his level even though they both have the same pro.

If you play a match (or clinic) with a substantially weaker team mate and the other team is focused on winning they will basically play keep away from you. I’m no great player but even I have left clinics thinking why did I go here? I have also had usta matches where it got to the point where I was running way over to my partners side of the court because at all costs they did not want to hit to me. I don’t think I am alone in thinking that is not fun.

But whether the other team plays “keep away” is not a matter of whether my teammate is a male or female. It is simply a matter of how good they are.

or how bad your partner is....

 

[geddahon]

So same coach but one clinic has players at his level the other has weaker players. He prefers the one with players his level even though they both have the same pro.

If you play a match (or clinic) with a substantially weaker team mate and the other team is focused on winning they will basically play keep away from you. I’m no great player but even I have left clinics thinking why did I go here? I have also had usta matches where it got to the point where I was running way over to my partners side of the court because at all costs they did not want to hit to me. I don’t think I am alone in thinking that is not fun.

But whether the other team plays “keep away” is not a matter of whether my teammate is a male or female. It is simply a matter of how good they are.

You aren’t supposed to win, you are supposed to break someone. Destroy their whole game. That’s how the initiation works between families and friends. You are t not doing anyone favors by not revealing their weakness. I love it. Break me. Then I play you again and again. Then I get games on the board and break your game. I didn’t even learn until 4 years ago. In basketball good defense is a favor for a teammate. I didn’t let Mrs Basketball score 1/3 the points in practice. One might say that I was instrumental in her success.
You should definitely have a strategy and go for the weaker player if they have a fault. As the partner you back them up by placing it to their weakness. You have to learn to win in this way. Do the same thing. Hit it down the middle. Hit it down the middle FAST. Stay behind your partner or ask them to stay behind you on a high ball or when poaching. You separate and then I formation. I get a new random down in mixed 7.0 really 8.0 on a 6.0 team and I’m so great full to get to play really good people and learn the game. I dunno. Just my take. Be friendly about it. I would talk and chat after if I got my butt wooped. I don’t care.

 

[geddahon]

Was this post created by ai, or did you use google translate?

No I’m a real person. I just played basketball growing up and I started like 4 years ago. My Grandpa didn’t get worse, he got way better. Depression, WW2, wife died. 3 kids and remarried. After retirement was when he got really good and kept getting better. I’m also a nurse so I know that old people are humans too. They like to win. Developing my game around it. I don’t win. I break. I will break you. When I come up, I won’t be lacking anything. Trust me. And I will be breaking without using my athletic ability, but brains, touch, precision before I get there so I have that. I still play hard hitting fire and ice tennis. Material advantage chess never wins. No wisdom.

 

[silverwyvern4]

Tennis Record is almost fully updated now!!!

 

[geddahon]

Tennis Record is almost fully updated now!!!

You aren’t supposed to win, you are supposed to break someone. Destroy their whole game. That’s how the initiation works between families and friends. You are t not doing anyone favors by not revealing their weakness. I love it. Break me. Then I play you again and again. Then I get games on the board and break your game. I didn’t even learn until 4 years ago. In basketball good defense is a favor for a teammate. I didn’t let Mrs Basketball score 1/3 the points in practice. One might say that I was instrumental in her success.
You should definitely have a strategy and go for the weaker player if they have a fault. As the partner you back them up by placing it to their weakness. You have to learn to win in this way. Do the same thing. Hit it down the middle. Hit it down the middle FAST. Stay behind your partner or ask them to stay behind you on a high ball or when poaching. You separate and then I formation. I get a new random down in mixed 7.0 really 8.0 on a 6.0 team and I’m so great full to get to play really good people and learn the game. I dunno. Just my take. Be friendly about it. I would talk and chat after if I got my butt wooped. I don’t care.

No I’m a real person. I just played basketball growing up and I started like 4 years ago. My Grandpa didn’t get worse, he got way better. Depression, WW2, wife died. 3 kids and remarried. After retirement was when he got really good and kept getting better. I’m also a nurse so I know that old people are humans too. They like to win. Developing my game around it. I don’t win. I break. I will break you. When I come up, I won’t be lacking anything. Trust me. And I will be breaking without using my athletic ability, but brains, touch, precision before I get there so I have that. I still play hard hitting fire and ice tennis. Material advantage chess never wins. No wisdom.

Stay on the Ad side. Doubles is an exact science of angles, it’s 4 handed tennis. Singles is creativity and played with imagination, Art Science. There is tons out there on what to do when your doubles partner is weaker. That’s called protect them. Learning how to win in 4 handed tennis as the better player is a great opportunity to learn new skills. Fuzzy yellow balls has a whole book on doubles with this.
Play Ad side so you have the close and can hit a return of service winner and end the point. Done. Breaking serve is same as serve. Hold your serve. They serve to your partner real high, can they return it? Have them switch with you if they are lobbing it on over. If it’s a rally, poach and end it. If they don’t hit the ball back you can still win. They get their serve in do the same, switch if lob, play two back or two up and Do not LET THEM PLAY THE shots they like ! You can learn a lot. There are no weaker players, just weaker teachers or less experience. It’s all about using what you have and developing more. You get what you get.

 

[geddahon]

On this site, most likely.

But at least my captain can start making plans for his teams when the league restarts in January. I'm guessing some of us will get bumped up. Right now we are in a holding pattern, until the end year ratings get released.

Yeah there is like a slinky jam effect always. Past 5.5 mixed, then 7.0 as a 6.0 mixed won one or two games , then the following year one or two matches, and the entire league has atleast 2/3 bumped up so we were a 6.0 league in an 8.0 mixed and won two matches so I’m proud. Lots of good experience. I don’t go by USTA I look at the Canadian rating system. It’s very specific as to skill set. Then you know how to formulate a long term, lasting game where you don’t “move down” my Grandpa didn’t ! He played till 84 killing it. There are quite a few like that left. Some one was saying he had to deploy drop shots vs 85 yo 4.0 lol.

 

[Addxyz]

‘A friend to anyone’: Beloved tennis player dies after collapse on Summerlin court

Recreational tennis player Ryan Vannah died Sunday after collapsing during a league match at Red Rock Country Club.

www.reviewjournal.com

I read this and thought of this thread.

 

[TennisOTM]

‘A friend to anyone’: Beloved tennis player dies after collapse on Summerlin court

Recreational tennis player Ryan Vannah died Sunday after collapsing during a league match at Red Rock Country Club.

www.reviewjournal.com

I read this and thought of this thread.

My goodness, I recognized his name from following Nationals results last year. Scary that you can actually tell from the partial match score how sudden it must have been: 5-7, 7-5 against a good team - seems like he was playing well before collapsing. How incredibly sad.

 

[Purestriker]

‘A friend to anyone’: Beloved tennis player dies after collapse on Summerlin court

Recreational tennis player Ryan Vannah died Sunday after collapsing during a league match at Red Rock Country Club.

www.reviewjournal.com

I read this and thought of this thread.

Wasn't he one of the folks yelling RED ROCK?

 

[Creighton]

Wasn't he one of the folks yelling RED ROCK?

No that was KK.

 

[silverwyvern4]

Less than 6 days to go!

 

[E.T.]

It looks like tennisrecord isn’t gracing us with bump predictions this year. They are sick of all the ingrates on this forum whining about how inaccurate they are, and so they are going to really stick it to us this year and withhold entirely.

Who thinks they are getting bumped? Are you excited about it or dreading it?

 

[Idaho MEP]

It looks like tennisrecord isn’t gracing us with bump predictions this year. They are sick of all the ingrates on this forum whining about how inaccurate they are, and so they are going to really stick it to us this year and withhold entirely.

I'm guessing they publish predictions Monday or Tuesday.

Who thinks they are getting bumped? Are you excited about it or dreading it?

I'm thinking there's about a 40% chance I get bumped. I'd like one more year, but I'd be fine either way.

 

[silverwyvern4]

I don't know if I'm more excited for my tennis rating to come out December 1st or the kid's college early admission decision on December 14th

 

[norcalslicer]

I think TR predictions are coming soon. I received a generic email from TR yesterday that said, "We hope everyone had a successful 2023 season. The end of year ratings are in the process of being published."

 

[silverwyvern4]

I think TR predictions are coming soon. I received a generic email from TR yesterday that said, "We hope everyone had a successful 2023 season. The end of year ratings are in the process of being published."

How do you get on their email list?

 

[norcalslicer]

How do you get on their email list?

I signed up to receive TR emails a few years back, and don't see the link on the TR site anymore. However, the messages (2-3 per year) come from "news@tennisrecord.com". You might be able to send a subscribe request to that address.

 

[Roforot]

I signed up to receive TR emails a few years back, and don't see the link on the TR site anymore. However, the messages (2-3 per year) come from "news@tennisrecord.com". You might be able to send a subscribe request to that address.

so weird considering every other site wants to spam you endlessly.
As for the bump... I have no idea. I had a good year but people I've lost to somehow have a lower TR ranking.

 

[HBK4life]

so weird considering every other site wants to spam you endlessly.
As for the bump... I have no idea. I had a good year but people I've lost to somehow have a lower TR ranking.

Don’t put stock in that site. They don’t have the real data.

 

[silverwyvern4]

For the 100 3.5 ladies in my area who tennis record had between 3.40 and 3.60 last year, tennis record was about 80 percent accurate at projecting which of those ladies ended up bumping up.

 

[cks]

It looks like tennisrecord isn’t gracing us with bump predictions this year. They are sick of all the ingrates on this forum whining about how inaccurate they are, and so they are going to really stick it to us this year and withhold entirely.

That was good.

 

[travlerajm]

Somehow I manage to finish every year playing mixed only with a TR mixed rating between .40 and .50. This year at .43 for second consecutive year. I never get bumped.

 

[Ziatennis89]

I gotta say that in the two times I’ve been bumped up since TR has existed, it has not once accurately predicted that I’d be bumped. Anecdotally, I think TR is more accurate in predicting bumps when someone is either winning or losing with huge margins. If you are like me in that you have a decent win record, but you’re having a lot more close three-setters than two-set wins/losses, TR is far less accurate. I can’t say how I know, and this shouldn’t be news to anyone on here, but TR is in some cases extremely off in its estimated ratings—like even by a margin of 0.3+. There are many other people I know in my district and section who are predicted by TR to be bumped who I can confirm will not be getting bumped either way. All of this is to say that I know it’s fun and satisfying to watch one’s rating fluctuate on TR throughout the year, but TR’s best use is as a scouting tool, especially since the interface is way friendlier than Tennislink. I love it for that.

 

[E.T.]

I gotta say that in the two times I’ve been bumped up since TR has existed, it has not once accurately predicted that I’d be bumped. Anecdotally, I think TR is more accurate in predicting bumps when someone is either winning or losing with huge margins. If you are like me in that you have a decent win record, but you’re having a lot more close three-setters than two-set wins/losses, TR is far less accurate. I can’t say how I know, and this shouldn’t be news to anyone on here, but TR is in some cases extremely off in its estimated ratings—like even by a margin of 0.3+. There are many other people I know in my district and section who are predicted by TR to be bumped who I can confirm will not be getting bumped either way. All of this is to say that I know it’s fun and satisfying to watch one’s rating fluctuate on TR throughout the year, but TR’s best use is as a scouting tool, especially since the interface is way friendlier than Tennislink. I love it for that.

Do you know how far off it was when you got bumped, but it didn’t predict it happening? I’ve heard the estimates tend to skew low, but who knows.

 

[Ziatennis89]

Do you know how far off it was when you got bumped, but it didn’t predict it happening? I’ve heard the estimates tend to skew low, but who knows.

In my case, the TR estimates skewed low. Like I would be estimated as being in the x.35-x.4 range, which had me at the top of the level but not high enough for a bump. I’ve seen that situation more often than the other way around (again, this is anecdotal and could be regional, but I’ve seen this in two separate sections I’ve played in). But I do know there are many players who are estimated to be well above a particular level threshold on TR who are actually below it.

 

[E.T.]

In my case, the TR estimates skewed low. Like I would be estimated as being in the x.35-x.4 range, which had me at the top of the level but not high enough for a bump. I’ve seen that situation more often than the other way around (again, this is anecdotal and could be regional, but I’ve seen this in two separate sections I’ve played in). But I do know there are many players who are estimated to be well above a particular level threshold on TR who are actually below it.

I just briefly looked at the top 100 3.5 women’s ranked players in 2022 according to Tennis Record. The rating lists have estimated year end dynamic ratings. It looked like within .05 it could really go either way, either too high for players who didn’t get bumped, or too low for players who did. So players estimated 3.45-3.55 were a toss up. Outside of that it seemed pretty accurate.

If it missed you by .15 that’s a pretty big miss. I wonder if it could be an issue regionally like you suggest, especially if you play in a section that performs better at nationals and are more likely to be shifted up as a result.

I know Tennis Record isn’t always accurate and isn’t the USTA, but it’s still an interesting resource. I do use it to give myself an idea of how I performed in a particular match from a ratings perspective, because I find that it generally shows players on a team in approximately the correct order of strength, at least in the region I play in.

 

[Ziatennis89]

I just briefly looked at the top 100 3.5 women’s ranked players in 2022 according to Tennis Record. The rating lists have estimated year end dynamic ratings. It looked like within .05 it could really go either way, either too high for players who didn’t get bumped, or too low for players who did. So players estimated 3.45-3.55 were a toss up. Outside of that it seemed pretty accurate.

If it missed you by .15 that’s a pretty big miss. I wonder if it could be an issue regionally like you suggest, especially if you play in a section that performs better at nationals and are more likely to be shifted up as a result.

I know Tennis Record isn’t always accurate and isn’t the USTA, but it’s still an interesting resource. I do use it to give myself an idea of how I performed in a particular match from a ratings perspective, because I find that it generally shows players on a team in approximately the correct order of strength, at least in the region I play in.

For sure—I mostly agree with what you’re saying. I just think it’s interesting that both times I’ve gotten bumped up since TR has existed, it hasn’t predicted that I’d get bumped. It is odd to me that if TR is ~80% accurate, I’ve fallen in that ~20% not once, but twice. I’ve known quite a few other people who haven’t been predicted to bump up who have ended up bumping as well. This would certainly support the theory that TR mostly skews low. (As a side note, there was one woman in my district two years ago who was a 3.5 who went to nationals and then got double-bumped to 4.5 with a TR dynamic that was something like 3.8-ish or maybe even lower. So you just never know!)

We also don’t really know what happens when USTA does their benchmarking calculations. I’d guess the benchmarking isn’t just mathematical, but also based in decisions particular districts/sections make. So even if TR’s dynamic estimates *are* accurate, I’m not sure they could predict what happens at the final review stages.

 

[E.T.]

For sure—I mostly agree with what you’re saying. I just think it’s interesting that both times I’ve gotten bumped up since TR has existed, it hasn’t predicted that I’d get bumped. It is odd to me that if TR is ~80% accurate, I’ve fallen in that ~20% not once, but twice. I’ve known quite a few other people who haven’t been predicted to bump up who have ended up bumping as well. This would certainly support the theory that TR mostly skews low. (As a side note, there was one woman in my district two years ago who was a 3.5 who went to nationals and then got double-bumped to 4.5 with a TR dynamic that was something like 3.8-ish or maybe even lower. So you just never know!)

We also don’t really know what happens when USTA does their benchmarking calculations. I’d guess the benchmarking isn’t just mathematical, but also based in decisions particular districts/sections make. So even if TR’s dynamic estimates *are* accurate, I’m not sure they could predict what happens at the final review stages.

I agree that TR probably can’t estimate the effect of benchmarking. Unless it was a former USTA employee who really understands what goes into that process, they would have no idea how to apply that. That’s probably one of the things that really throws certain sections off. I think their manual adjustments after ratings come out to fix their misses, such as moving someone who was rated on their site as a 3.8 who gets bumped to 4.5 up to a 4.01 on their site, helps to level the buckets back out, but that number might still be way off. The USTA could have that person at a 4.15. So then every match that person plays the following year will give all four people on the court incorrect ratings for that match.

I know you understand that. And I’m sure most people reading through this thread do as well. I think TR is accurate in its own right for most of the teams I’ve been on, in the sense that the people who are rated highest on my teams are usually who I would consider to be the strongest match players. The players with the lowest ratings tend to be our weakest match players. I think it can be helpful for determining lineups and assessing the strengths of teams you will be playing in league.

The fact that it seems to be worse at predicting bump downs would also suggest the ratings skew low on TR. Either that, or as some have hypothesized on these boards before, ratings are sticky, and possibly there is a small threshold where someone’s dynamic rating can dip down but their higher computer rating sticks. Maybe they do this to prevent sandbagging attempts. Another great mystery of the USTA rating system.

 

[Roforot]

I agree that TR probably can’t estimate the effect of benchmarking. Unless it was a former USTA employee who really understands what goes into that process, they would have no idea how to apply that. That’s probably one of the things that really throws certain sections off. I think their manual adjustments after ratings come out to fix their misses, such as moving someone who was rated on their site as a 3.8 who gets bumped to 4.5 up to a 4.01 on their site, helps to level the buckets back out, but that number might still be way off. The USTA could have that person at a 4.15. So then every match that person plays the following year will give all four people on the court incorrect ratings for that match.

I know you understand that. And I’m sure most people reading through this thread do as well. I think TR is accurate in its own right for most of the teams I’ve been on, in the sense that the people who are rated highest on my teams are usually who I would consider to be the strongest match players. The players with the lowest ratings tend to be our weakest match players. I think it can be helpful for determining lineups and assessing the strengths of teams you will be playing in league.

The fact that it seems to be worse at predicting bump downs would also suggest the ratings skew low on TR. Either that, or as some have hypothesized on these boards before, ratings are sticky, and possibly there is a small threshold where someone’s dynamic rating can dip down but their higher computer rating sticks. Maybe they do this to prevent sandbagging attempts. Another great mystery of the USTA rating system.

Also keep in mind that Tournaments are counted differently in regions. Some don't even look at it supposedly b/c they've had people sandbag and lose in tournaments 0-0 to keep their ratings low.
In CA, I think they count tournaments at the end of hte year? TR has my double's matches, but none of my singles matches are listed in my match history.

 

[E.T.]

Also keep in mind that Tournaments are counted differently in regions. Some don't even look at it supposedly b/c they've had people sandbag and lose in tournaments 0-0 to keep their ratings low.
In CA, I think they count tournaments at the end of hte year? TR has my double's matches, but none of my singles matches are listed in my match history.

Yes, I have a few tournament results that I know count in my section. Tennis record pulled them in and there are some estimated ratings pulled in as well, but they aren’t included in the dynamic calculation that I can see. For people who play a lot of tournaments, the TR estimate will be even less reliable. Also, tri-level doesn’t count in every section. I was able to find a USTA pdf that shows what counts in my section (Missouri Valley) but every section is different, another thing that can really throw off TR estimates.

 

[Ziatennis89]

I agree that TR probably can’t estimate the effect of benchmarking. Unless it was a former USTA employee who really understands what goes into that process, they would have no idea how to apply that. That’s probably one of the things that really throws certain sections off. I think their manual adjustments after ratings come out to fix their misses, such as moving someone who was rated on their site as a 3.8 who gets bumped to 4.5 up to a 4.01 on their site, helps to level the buckets back out, but that number might still be way off. The USTA could have that person at a 4.15. So then every match that person plays the following year will give all four people on the court incorrect ratings for that match.

I know you understand that. And I’m sure most people reading through this thread do as well. I think TR is accurate in its own right for most of the teams I’ve been on, in the sense that the people who are rated highest on my teams are usually who I would consider to be the strongest match players. The players with the lowest ratings tend to be our weakest match players. I think it can be helpful for determining lineups and assessing the strengths of teams you will be playing in league.

The fact that it seems to be worse at predicting bump downs would also suggest the ratings skew low on TR. Either that, or as some have hypothesized on these boards before, ratings are sticky, and possibly there is a small threshold where someone’s dynamic rating can dip down but their higher computer rating sticks. Maybe they do this to prevent sandbagging attempts. Another great mystery of the USTA rating system.

Agreed on all points. As a team captain, I use TR all the time to determine lineups, scout for playoffs/championship play, and recruit new players. Because our team is small and all of the other 4.5s in my area are already on a team, we do sometimes have to recruit strong 4.0s to sub in to avoid defaulting courts when we don’t have enough players available. Looking at TR’s dynamic player rankings for 4.0 often reveals players whose dynamics are estimated in or near 4.5 range and who should, in theory, be competitive at that level. In terms of predicting skill level, the estimates are pretty spot-on, like you said. There’d be virtually no way of doing this type of screening efficiently or quickly without TR. It’s a very useful tool and I hope it doesn’t go away or go fall off like TLS did.

 

[E.T.]

One thing about tournament ratings that I’m curious about… Sections who opt to include tournaments do so at year end. Do they go back and insert them at the date they were played, and take into account the players’ dynamic ratings on that date? Or do they tack them on at the end of the year using all the players’ end of year dynamic ratings? I would assume the former, but I have no idea. I’m curious if @schmke has any information about this.

 

[Roforot]

Yes, I have a few tournament results that I know count in my section. Tennis record pulled them in and there are some estimated ratings pulled in as well, but they aren’t included in the dynamic calculation that I can see. For people who play a lot of tournaments, the TR estimate will be even less reliable. Also, tri-level doesn’t count in every section. I was able to find a USTA pdf that shows what counts in my section (Missouri Valley) but every section is different, another thing that can really throw off TR estimates.

hi, is it possible to give us a link or search term to use to google this pdf. The USTA website/FAQ is not very easy to search. it's almost as though they keep this information concealed.

 

[E.T.]

hi, is it possible to give us a link or search term to use to google this pdf. The USTA website/FAQ is not very easy to search. it's almost as though they keep this information concealed.

It actually took me some time to find it. There are random pdf’s out there, posted by the different sections. I googled something similar to “Missouri Valley USTA which matches are included NTRP” and came upon a source. I’m not sure if every section even has this information posted online, but you might get lucky enough to find it for yours.

This is what I found for Missouri Valley. Maybe it can help you narrow down your search.

https://www.usta.com/es/content/dam/usta/sections/missouri-valley/pdfs/Missouri%20Valley-%202022%20NTRP%20Year%20Rating%20FAQs-Final%2011_30_2022%20.pdf

 

[Biologydropout]

hi, is it possible to give us a link or search term to use to google this pdf. The USTA website/FAQ is not very easy to search. it's almost as though they keep this information concealed.

Google USTA (your section) league rules and see if anything comes up.

https://www.usta.com/content/dam/usta/sections/missouri-valley/pdfs/HOA-USTA-League-Rules-2023-26JAN23.pdf

You’re likely looking for something like this. States and local leagues can vary their rules so I’d start with the section and work your way closer to see what you can find.

 

[silverwyvern4]

What day is the last day for ratings to count this season?