silverwyvern4
Semi-Pro
Two women in my league still only have 2021 ratings displayed. I wonder what's going on and when they'll get their 2022 ratings??
The dreaded EOY Rating thread
- Thread starter Brilliant
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Yeah, one of them was the kid who I said was a 4.5 based on his junior/HS record in PA, so it's no big mystery there.
Did they play enough matches to get an updated rating?
silverwyvern4
Semi-Pro
Yeah they both played lots of matches. One of them was a 3.5A last year.
schmke
Legend
Classic USTA snafu.
Several players I'm aware of got an e-mail today saying:
"You are receiving this email because you attempted to Appeal your 2022 Year End NTRP Rating UP today at a time in which that service was interrupted. As a result, you may have been improperly denied your Appeal UP. If you are still interested in pursuing an appeal UP, please return to tennislink.usta.com to resubmit your request via the same process you used earlier today."
Players tried again and now had it granted. Nice.
Several players I'm aware of got an e-mail today saying:
"You are receiving this email because you attempted to Appeal your 2022 Year End NTRP Rating UP today at a time in which that service was interrupted. As a result, you may have been improperly denied your Appeal UP. If you are still interested in pursuing an appeal UP, please return to tennislink.usta.com to resubmit your request via the same process you used earlier today."
Players tried again and now had it granted. Nice.
BeyondTheTape
Semi-Pro
people who appeal up are aliens 
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Appeal ups seem very odd. If a 3.5 player appeals up to 4.0 so she can then play up on a 4.5 team, doesn’t the 4.5 captain know that she is really a 3.5 because her USTA rating is 4.0A and not 4.0C? Surely the 4.5 captain would not be fooled by this. Why would the 4.5 captain take this player on her team?
E.T.
Rookie
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I am guessing the two double bumps had to be C rated players or they would have been dqed is that correct? What about the other 13 players how many were c rated or appeal rated players?
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
The ratings are only accurate if they are based on several matches. You can get a c rating after only 3 matches.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Was it a mixed doubles match? If it was and you have a c rating then the ratings would ignore it anyway.
Jack the Hack
Hall of Fame
I wasn't paying attention to the ratings until I got a couple urgent messages this afternoon, one from a friend and another from a longtime rival of mine. We're all about the same age (50ish) and have been the same level for the past several years. Apparently, they both got bumped down from 4.5 to 4.0 today, along with several other 4.5s in the area that we all know. When I checked, my rating was still 4.5, but they asked me if I would consider hitting the appeal button to see if I could join them. They want to put together an All-Star team.
So, I thought about it for a couple hours and eventually decided "why not?"
The result... 4.0 appeal granted.
Maybe I should have been excited, but strangely, my stomach actually sunk and I felt bad. Seeing a 4.0 next my name is verification that I've gotten old, let myself go, and my game is in the dumpster. But I kind of knew that already.
In 2015, I had a 5.0 computer rating (bumped up from 4.5 at the end of 2014) and I went to 4.5+ Nationals in 2018 and 2019. However, after a very solid 2018 season, I really was just a benchwarmer on the 2019 team, didn't pick up a racquet in 2020, was only 1-1 in 2021, and was 2-4 this past season. Plus, my game is really based around consistency and smart shotmaking instead of any huge weapons, so it's easy to fall away from winning if I don't stay in shape. Also, to note, two of my losses this year were in doubles to 4.0 rated players that were playing up, but the circumstances were something the computer couldn't see. In one match, my partner pulled his calf muscle when we were up 4-1 in the first set. He couldn't run at all, but we still almost won with me essentially playing singles, but we lost 10-12 in a superbreaker. If he didn't get injured, we probably win 6-2, 6-2 at worst. The other loss, I was playing on my first day testing negative after being sick with COVID for a week, but I still felt horrible and it hurt to hit the ball. My partner also had a pulled back muscle and couldn't move. The only reason we were playing is because our captain had no other players available and he didn't want to default the line, but we lost in straight sets. I think those two results put me in the threshold territory.
As this has sunk in more, I've had mixed feelings. Outside of tennis, I have been promoted in my job and I am super busy. In addition, when the pandemic began in 2020, I decided to use the extra time I had from being able to work from home and not commute to go back to school part-time. As such, I have been working on a PhD and have reached the dissertation writing stage, which I've been doing the whole Fall semester, and it has taken all my free time. And to top it off, my wife has been having health issues, and both of my kids have been going through some tough times in college. The little bit of tennis I played this year wasn't fun, and I was getting small injuries (in addition to the bout with COVID). Subsequently, I haven't hit a tennis ball since July. Therefore, the thought of playing USTA right now is not at the top of my list of priorities. On the other hand, it's kind of flattering that I have people reaching out to invite me to be a key part a team that should be pretty good. With this group, I'd be kind of a top dog instead of a benchwarmer. And it's an excuse to get up early in the morning and work out, which is the kind of motivation I need for that.
Unlike my friends that are building the team, I don't really care about going back to Nationals. I've already done it twice at a higher level and had my fill. But playing on the team could help me get back in shape and playing again, which could be a healthy distraction from the other stuff going on in my life right now. Plus, with the sandbagging that goes on in 4.0, I have no illusions that I'll go undefeated, especially at my age, so maybe I should just do it.
So, I thought about it for a couple hours and eventually decided "why not?"
The result... 4.0 appeal granted.
Maybe I should have been excited, but strangely, my stomach actually sunk and I felt bad. Seeing a 4.0 next my name is verification that I've gotten old, let myself go, and my game is in the dumpster. But I kind of knew that already.
In 2015, I had a 5.0 computer rating (bumped up from 4.5 at the end of 2014) and I went to 4.5+ Nationals in 2018 and 2019. However, after a very solid 2018 season, I really was just a benchwarmer on the 2019 team, didn't pick up a racquet in 2020, was only 1-1 in 2021, and was 2-4 this past season. Plus, my game is really based around consistency and smart shotmaking instead of any huge weapons, so it's easy to fall away from winning if I don't stay in shape. Also, to note, two of my losses this year were in doubles to 4.0 rated players that were playing up, but the circumstances were something the computer couldn't see. In one match, my partner pulled his calf muscle when we were up 4-1 in the first set. He couldn't run at all, but we still almost won with me essentially playing singles, but we lost 10-12 in a superbreaker. If he didn't get injured, we probably win 6-2, 6-2 at worst. The other loss, I was playing on my first day testing negative after being sick with COVID for a week, but I still felt horrible and it hurt to hit the ball. My partner also had a pulled back muscle and couldn't move. The only reason we were playing is because our captain had no other players available and he didn't want to default the line, but we lost in straight sets. I think those two results put me in the threshold territory.
As this has sunk in more, I've had mixed feelings. Outside of tennis, I have been promoted in my job and I am super busy. In addition, when the pandemic began in 2020, I decided to use the extra time I had from being able to work from home and not commute to go back to school part-time. As such, I have been working on a PhD and have reached the dissertation writing stage, which I've been doing the whole Fall semester, and it has taken all my free time. And to top it off, my wife has been having health issues, and both of my kids have been going through some tough times in college. The little bit of tennis I played this year wasn't fun, and I was getting small injuries (in addition to the bout with COVID). Subsequently, I haven't hit a tennis ball since July. Therefore, the thought of playing USTA right now is not at the top of my list of priorities. On the other hand, it's kind of flattering that I have people reaching out to invite me to be a key part a team that should be pretty good. With this group, I'd be kind of a top dog instead of a benchwarmer. And it's an excuse to get up early in the morning and work out, which is the kind of motivation I need for that.
Unlike my friends that are building the team, I don't really care about going back to Nationals. I've already done it twice at a higher level and had my fill. But playing on the team could help me get back in shape and playing again, which could be a healthy distraction from the other stuff going on in my life right now. Plus, with the sandbagging that goes on in 4.0, I have no illusions that I'll go undefeated, especially at my age, so maybe I should just do it.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
So you played at 4.5+ nationals as recently as 2019, and you are now a 4.0? Oh wow, you are going to make the run of lifetime through 4.0 league. Absolute USTA glory. I can only imagine.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Jack the hack
My calf’s started to cramp in the first set of two matches last year as well. I tried to play through in both but my partner started to get blurred vision from the heat so we retired one of the matches. The other match it was just like playing with cement blocks on my feet because I was afraid any fast movement would cause a tear. Both matches were the second match of a double header so I just wont do those if I can avoid it this year.
It also made me realize that maybe some of my wins were against people dealing with injuries. Normally I have been lucky enough not to get injured during a match. It was only 2 of 7 matches that this happed but one was in a 3.0 match so I’m sure it really tanked my rating.
I sort of have the same reaction as you but in reverse. I was thinking I would get bumped up to 3.5 and not bother with weaker leagues anymore. I didn’t feel right playing in them as a self rate from a year and a half ago so I would often play on mixed teams with a .5 to spare. But now that usta sort of officially gave me (and 2 other players in my area) this blessing to play as a 3.0 I’m thinking ok might as well put together a 3.0 team. I don’t think I would ever want to appeal. The concerns about DQs make usta no fun.
My calf’s started to cramp in the first set of two matches last year as well. I tried to play through in both but my partner started to get blurred vision from the heat so we retired one of the matches. The other match it was just like playing with cement blocks on my feet because I was afraid any fast movement would cause a tear. Both matches were the second match of a double header so I just wont do those if I can avoid it this year.
It also made me realize that maybe some of my wins were against people dealing with injuries. Normally I have been lucky enough not to get injured during a match. It was only 2 of 7 matches that this happed but one was in a 3.0 match so I’m sure it really tanked my rating.
I sort of have the same reaction as you but in reverse. I was thinking I would get bumped up to 3.5 and not bother with weaker leagues anymore. I didn’t feel right playing in them as a self rate from a year and a half ago so I would often play on mixed teams with a .5 to spare. But now that usta sort of officially gave me (and 2 other players in my area) this blessing to play as a 3.0 I’m thinking ok might as well put together a 3.0 team. I don’t think I would ever want to appeal. The concerns about DQs make usta no fun.
The one kid self-rated 3.0 in 2021 and only played in a non-advancing fall league where he pulverized everyone and got a 3.5C rating for 12/31/21. This is the kid who had a sectional junior rank in Middle States, played 4 years on his HS team, and made the finals of the district singles tournament. I can say through experience with Middle States that that would put him at a 4.5 level at the time to achieve what he did as a junior, but none of those things trip the self-rating for 4.5 (his junior rank was below the threshold for the mandatory 5.0 and there is no mandatory 4.5 based on junior rank). He should have had to self-rate at 3.5 instead of 3.0 based on high school experience, but he apparently forgot to include that. If he had self-rated 3.5 in 21 and pulverized the 3.5 fall league instead of the 3.0 league, he would have been 4.0C this year.
Can you make a trip out to PA and play a couple matches for my team? I'll schedule 2 for the same weekend and then you only have to come back for districts. LOL.
schmke
Legend
Now there is an idea. The All TT sandbagging 4.0 team. I'm probably in the similar boat to @Jack the Hack in that I've been a 4.5 for years now, but lower end with middling results, and could be close enough to appeal. I don't plan on clicking the button, but if I and others did, we could potentially assemble a strong 4.0 team!
schmke
Legend
FWIW, my ratings said you were a 4.5 but close enough to appeal down as well.
FedIsBetterer
Rookie
Any reason why playing 4 mixed matches wouldn’t qualify me for a M rating? Tennisrecord has me as a 5.0M. I was hurt for the other part of the season. I have a 4.5C rating for 2021 but nothing for 2022.
schmke
Legend
If you had a 2021 4.5C, that is going to stick with you even if you only played Mixed in 2022. C ratings are valid for 3 years, and generally (I've seen some exceptions) that will stick with you even in your scenario until it expires. The exceptions I've seen are sometimes if a player that only plays Mixed goes to Nationals, I think I've seen a few cases like that where they did get an M the year after a C.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
This is one of the reasons ntrp ratings are often a poor predicter of actual strength/results.
schmke
Legend
Correct, year-end levels from the prior year are generally pretty good, but when players don't play, or only play leagues that don't count and just keep a one or two year old level, that may not be an accurate indicator of where they stand today.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Ok so both were c rated players? The problem is the ratings are so wide that even if you are way out of level - as long as you stay in your level it is very hard to get a double bump. A 4.5 player playing in 3.0 only got bumped to 3.5! This seems to be the converse of my theory that a 3.0 player can play in 4.5 and end up with a 4.0c rating.
schmke
Legend
No, the problem (in this case) is not the width of the levels, but like @J_R_B said that the player was allowed to self-rate as a 3.0. While someone that self-rates has no starting rating and in theory could end up generating match ratings anywhere, the fact is that your rating is influenced by who you play and so your self-rating level (and the level you subsequently play at constrained by that) does influence what your match ratings are. Like @J_R_B said, had he self-rated (probably correctly, or more correctly than 3.0) as a 3.5, he likely gets a 4.0C year-end like was said and it has nothing to do with the wide levels.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
schmke in his particular case both are problems. ( assuming Jrb is correctly analyzing how his high school play should influence his self rate.) I would say the problem I mention is the bigger problem with the ntrp rating system. If this same person was home schooled or foreign etc and never played high school tennis then Jrb’s corrective doesn’t apply at all.
and the last bit you paraphrase by jrb is simply wrong it has everything to do with the wide levels. If your predicted score with someone at your same level is 6-0 6-0 then there is no way for the algorithm to tell if you are one level higher or 3 levels higher.
edit: and again were they both c rated players?
silverwyvern4
Semi-Pro
Last year, there were some trilevel teams in sections where they were the only trilevel team that registered, for example Northern and New England. They got direct passes to nationals just for registering on the team. Could they recruit players from all over the country since the players on that team don't have to play a single match to qualify??
time_fly
Hall of Fame
As I mentioned earlier, there was virtually no movement upward from the 3.5 level in our area for about the 5th year in a row. I talked to some very irritated guys last night who had played up at 4.0 with some success in the past year and were hoping to get bumped up. I always remind them that NTRP isn't UTR. It's not primarily about predicting who is "better." It's about grouping players into leagues that are big and stable enough to be healthy where people play competitive matches against each other. Somewhere there might be a 3.0 flight where the best singles players are bombing in 110 mph first serves and perfecting their serve-plus-one techniques. If they all have a good time and play competively against each other then the algorithm won't move them, at least not until their league is filled with enough of these caliber of players where they start beating everyone at Nationals.
silverwyvern4
Semi-Pro
18 3.5 men in my area were just bumped up. Last year, it was 24. Three years ago, it was 12.
time_fly
Hall of Fame
You must have some big leagues. In the smallest 3.5 flight that I play in, losing 18 players would be about a third of the league.
This is a great way to think about it - thanks.
I felt bad about going back to 3.5. You guys are going to destroy 4.0 next year. Probably 40&over national champs.
iNeverSlice
Rookie
I was the only over 40 player bumped up in my level. It wasn't deserved, but the competition was weak so it made me look better than I am.
Which area are you in?
It was no more accurate than throwing darts. At least it's free.
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Some sections have minimum residency requirements for their teams. Eastern implemented it about 10 years ago when my buddy put together a Middle States all-star team and crushed an Eastern NJ league (and they were a little salty about it, LOL). That's a sectional rule, though, not national, so it may or may not apply to those sections. Even if it did, you'd just need critical mass of local players of any level and then you could easily bring in a 6-man national ringer lineup for tri-level nationals.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
iNeverSlice
Rookie
No chance. I'm much more likely to just quit USTA.
(Unless you start a team. Then I might play.)
Jack the Hack
Hall of Fame
I appreciate the comments, but I think you guys have far more confidence than I do on how good this team will be. I watched the 18s 4.0 Sectional final this year in my area because it was being played at the same time as my friend's 5.0 team final. I was very impressed with the two 4.0 singles players I saw from the winning team, both of which just got bumped to 4.5. However, they both lost all of their singles matches at Nationals and the team went 1-3 there. Maybe 40s is a different story, but the Sectional champion in 40s 4.0 from our area went 1-3 at Nationals this year as well.
I'm having a hard time getting excited about this, especially with everything else going on in my life right now. Plus, as @schmke mentioned, there are probably a bunch of 4.5 guys on the threshold in the big city north of us that could end up appealing and putting a strong team together, so even making it to Nationals is not a foregone conclusion, much less winning it. I won't be holding back in any matches I play, so maybe I'll end up getting DQ-ed back to the sucky end of the 4.5 level in a couple months. And that's probably best case scenario if my body doesn't come flying apart.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
I know for sure that one was. I think the other was as well.
I personally think that they need to change the rules in regards to computer rated players. If you play at your computer rating, I don't think you should be DQed. However, let's say that a 3.5 computer rated player plays in a 4.0 league, and their dynamic rating reaches 3.51 or greater. In the case, I think they should receive a 4.0D rating and not be eligible to play at 3.5 anymore. However, since they had a computer rating, I don't think the matches they played at 3.5 should be thrown out. So, basically modified self-rated rules.
Red Rock was, in essence, a 4.0 team playing at the 3.5 level. That is one of my gripes about nationals.
GrassCourtFan
Legend
I stayed where I was, as expected. I'm pretty sure I'm smack-dab in the middle of my level.
Our team lost our two strongest players to bumpups. Probably well-deserved. We'll see how it does afterwards (or if they appeal down?)
Our team lost our two strongest players to bumpups. Probably well-deserved. We'll see how it does afterwards (or if they appeal down?)
Kyle Knecht?
I personally think you should have to be in the top third of your rating level to play up (ex. 3.33 or higher to play in 4.0).
loveallcats
Rookie
So is this correct:
If you have a C rating from a previous year, it overrides an M rating from the next year, if you only played mixed? It will stay C.
If you have a C rating from a previous year and play both tournaments and mixed league, your new T rating overrides the M rating for that year?
If you have a C rating from a previous year and you only played tournaments the next year, you keep your C rating. ... or does it get changed to a T (assuming you played 3 non-mixed matches)
More questions:
If you played mixed tournaments and mixed league do both count towards an M rating if you didn't play anything else that year?
What about all of the above scenarios if you have an S or A rating?
If you have a C rating from a previous year, it overrides an M rating from the next year, if you only played mixed? It will stay C.
If you have a C rating from a previous year and play both tournaments and mixed league, your new T rating overrides the M rating for that year?
If you have a C rating from a previous year and you only played tournaments the next year, you keep your C rating. ... or does it get changed to a T (assuming you played 3 non-mixed matches)
More questions:
If you played mixed tournaments and mixed league do both count towards an M rating if you didn't play anything else that year?
What about all of the above scenarios if you have an S or A rating?
silverwyvern4
Semi-Pro
It'd probably be most economical to hire 6 ringers who live in the Indian Wells area. Then it wouldn't cost them anything to play for your trilevel nationals team.
Of course, that would require the USTA to calculate ratings to one-hundredth of a point. It would likely require them to disclose dNTRP ratings as well.
GrassCourtFan
Legend
I think we have different standards. It seems that for you, you're thinking "if the team didn't even go to nationals, then it wasn't that great". Whereas for most of us, a team that goes to sectionals is "the strongest team around". Most teams don't even win their local flight.
