The Edberg serve...

Rock Strongo

Rock Strongo

Legend
To me, it's got to be one of the most beautiful service motions ever in tennis. But why did it change so drastically from around 1985 to 1996? I mean, it went from a long windup from 1985 to 1987 and then a more abbreviated motion in 1988 to 1991 (in 1989 it looked a bit like the Roddick serve but with more back bend) then he went back to the long windup in 1992 to 1996 and now he's back at the abbreviated motion in his senior years. Also, I know that he had a fantastic kick serve but there was always a sense that he could hit big serves and perhaps even match Becker in the MPH department, why did he never try that?
 
I can't tell you why he may of changed his motion, I suspect maybe it had to do with back or arm/shoulder problems. His kicker allowed him to close off the net easier on his first volley, and that's more difficult to do when hitting the flat heater.
 
robow7 said:
I can't tell you why he may of changed his motion, I suspect maybe it had to do with back or arm/shoulder problems. His kicker allowed him to close off the net easier on his first volley, and that's more difficult to do when hitting the flat heater.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I know of his back problems, but changing service motion that many times seems a bit weird. And I agree on you with the flat/kicker argument, but it seems that he could've got a bit more free points off of it than he originally did...
 
robow7 said:
I can't tell you why he may of changed his motion, I suspect maybe it had to do with back or arm/shoulder problems. His kicker allowed him to close off the net easier on his first volley, and that's more difficult to do when hitting the flat heater.
Click to expand...

Based on an observation of his motion alone, I would not be surprise if he was having shoulder problems. His service motion provides very powerful way of creating pace on the swing, very much like a hammer throw at the olympic event.

centripetal-centrifugal-force.jpg


The downside of this motion is the greater degree of subjecting the rotator cuff to a combination of stress from the contrifugal pull and having to create so much contripetal force to counter the inertia of the racquet. Unfortunately the two opposing forces aren't always equal, causing the rotator cuff to constantly being aggitated. This type of stress also cause all sorts of problem with baseball pitchers with similar style of arm swing.

contact_edberg.jpg


Perhaps by abbreviating the windup, he is creating in shorter radius of the swing, resulting in less centripetal pull.

Or may be I'm just full of hot air :)
 
After hitting ten million serves the same way he prolly discovered there was an easier way to go about it. At least for me its easier for me to go up and get the ball rather than toss it high and let it fall and hit it.
 
mary carillo said the diff. btwn the becker and edberg serve :

becker - 50% 1st serves in w/ ~90% of points won

edberg - 70% 1st serves in w/ ~70% of points won

with a higher 1st serve percentage, edberg can come to net more to hit volleys
 
big ted said:
mary carillo said the diff. btwn the becker and edberg serve :

becker - 50% 1st serves in w/ ~90% of points won

edberg - 70% 1st serves in w/ ~70% of points won

with a higher 1st serve percentage, edberg can come to net more to hit volleys
Click to expand...

Well, if Mary Carillo said it, then it must be true!
 
LOL...I doubt he finished his career with a 70% 1st serve %...I doubt he came anywhere close to that for a season. He was prone to slap net or go long often...but who cares when you have probably the first, or second best, 2nd serve ever.
 
I thought Edberg's serve was somewhat disjointed and ineffecient. But, in the final analysis, his huge, high bouncing, arching ball flight resulted in what was probably the best serve for S&V in tennis history.
 
Rock Strongo said:
To me, it's got to be one of the most beautiful service motions ever in tennis. But why did it change so drastically from around 1985 to 1996? I mean, it went from a long windup from 1985 to 1987 and then a more abbreviated motion in 1988 to 1991 (in 1989 it looked a bit like the Roddick serve but with more back bend) then he went back to the long windup in 1992 to 1996 and now he's back at the abbreviated motion in his senior years. Also, I know that he had a fantastic kick serve but there was always a sense that he could hit big serves and perhaps even match Becker in the MPH department, why did he never try that?
Click to expand...
definitely one of the most elegant serve motions...
so which "version" did they take for the AO logo ? ;)

gs_ao_logo.gif
 
Limpinhitter said:
I thought Edberg's serve was somewhat disjointed and ineffecient. But, in the final analysis, his huge, high bouncing, arching ball flight resulted in what was probably the best serve for S&V in tennis history.
Click to expand...

His serve was buitl for that, to give him the time to settle up at the net.he did it better than any one.

In a way, still being a different shot, Mc Enroe serve was also built up to open up the court with the slice and then, close down with the volley.

In former years, I also think Tony Roche´s serve was built up like that.

The 3 best volleyers, along Laver, no coincidence...
 
Limpinhitter said:
I thought Edberg's serve was somewhat disjointed and ineffecient. But, in the final analysis, his huge, high bouncing, arching ball flight resulted in what was probably the best serve for S&V in tennis history.
Click to expand...

Heh heh....good call Limpin. It WAS a bit disjointed and inefficient. It was only Edberg's athletic grace and athleticism that made it look beautiful. The flow and transfer itself was smooth as silk, but the arm rhythm wasn't particularly smooth. It lagged a bit....see Guy Forget for a similar lag and arch...but without the grace!
 
I always thought mid to late 80's Edberg serve was better then 90's Edberg serve, while the reverse can be said about his ground game and mental strength.
 
Edberg was the best serve & vollier in his prime, moved around the court like a cat, fast & silent. His 2nd serve kicked so high, it gave him time to get into the net for the 1st volley.....and most points were finished within 5 to 6 shots. Saw clips of him playing in 1 of the Seniors Tour tourni, the serve and backhand still hit with venom but they do tend to fly long beyond the baseline.
 
Limpinhitter said:
I thought Edberg's serve was somewhat disjointed and ineffecient. But, in the final analysis, his huge, high bouncing, arching ball flight resulted in what was probably the best serve for S&V in tennis history.
Click to expand...

ineffecient? how so?
 
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Limpinhitter said:
I think his ball flight could have been produced with a much simpler, less physically demanding, service motion.
Click to expand...

OK, that is what I thought you meant. There was always the talk about how torqued his body because of his toss and back arch. just wondering.
 
Fedace said:
How does he put on so much Kick with that tiny headed racket ???
Click to expand...

The PS 85 is not tiny compared to the woods that he (as a kid/junior) and a lot of us (er...still adults) used back in the day. In fact its like 35% larger than a wood hoop.

Besides, Edberg hit his first serve pretty flat...just had a backhand grip and tossed over his head more than the norm. Look at Pat Rafter for a true kicker...and yes this would be especially more difficult with a tiny wood head.
 
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ywk999 said:
GIF's aplenty
Click to expand...

What really amazes me is how far infront of himself he's actually tossing the ball, it's a bit like John Isner, but with a lot more kick. It's quite amazing too how he's delaying his right arm so that he could continue moving forward to the net while the right arm was purely focused on hitting the ball (see GIF 3)
 
hoodjem said:
I wonder if this is a first serve or a second serve.

I believe that he had even more kick on his second.
Click to expand...

The first GIF from 1990 Masters against Agassi looks like a second serve. When Edberg stayed back, he had that extremely low finish and right leg stretched back for balance.

The third GIF appears to be a second serve with good amount of kick that Becker took early.

The others below are actually slice serves to Becker's FH so they are intended to be kept low.

Edberg's first serves tended to be flatter. His second serves were tremendously varied in placement, speed and spin to keep the opponents guessing. What he wanted to achieve was to not allow his opponents have free cracks at his second serves.

I've tried these GIF for the first time, and found it fun doing, so I'll try to find some good kick serve moments next time.
 
On the third one, look how far in the court he is when that left foot first lands. Lord, I couldn't do that even if I didn't care where the serve ended up, I'd be splat on my face.
 
Let's allow Edberg just two GOAT shots.

I think his volley is right up there with Mac's and Rosewall's as top-tier all-time: unbelievable touch.

So for his second best shot, is it serve or backhand?
 
I vote his second serve. Not too many could approach and be as successful and he was on the second serve.
 
hoodjem said:
Let's allow Edberg just two GOAT shots.

I think his volley is right up there with Mac's and Rosewall's as top-tier all-time: unbelievable touch.

So for his second best shot, is it serve or backhand?
Click to expand...

IMO bh. Some opponents, albiet notable ones, could get to his serve, i.e., Courier, Agassi, Becker for example. IMO what limited it being even more effective is that he didn't have a great contrasting serve. I remember his flats being 111 mph, 111, 111, 111, ad nausem and an effective slice. He didn't have speed to contrast his off speed serves better. It's nitpicking but others had that contrast if not as great a kicker, and yes it was a great kicker.

5
 
I always thought Edberg's serve was the ugliest part of his game so I guess it's kind of strange that I ended up copying it. I was fascinated by his use of the backhand grip, so I tried it and found it really simplified the serve for me. There is only one way to hit the ball with that grip. It's really limiting. I found that to be a plus.
 
FiveO said:
IMO bh. Some opponents, albiet notable ones, could get to his serve, i.e., Courier, Agassi, Becker for example. IMO what limited it being even more effective is that he didn't have a great contrasting serve. I remember his flats being 111 mph, 111, 111, 111, ad nausem and an effective slice. He didn't have speed to contrast his off speed serves better. It's nitpicking but others had that contrast if not as great a kicker, and yes it was a great kicker.

5
Click to expand...

Mecir also returned his serves very well in the Wimbledon semi-final of 1988, but he couldn't finish the match off for some reason.

Here's a faster serve against Chang at the 1:05 mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCeDHIYgTIE
 
Rock Strongo said:
To me, it's got to be one of the most beautiful service motions ever in tennis. But why did it change so drastically from around 1985 to 1996? I mean, it went from a long windup from 1985 to 1987 and then a more abbreviated motion in 1988 to 1991 (in 1989 it looked a bit like the Roddick serve but with more back bend) then he went back to the long windup in 1992 to 1996 and now he's back at the abbreviated motion in his senior years. Also, I know that he had a fantastic kick serve but there was always a sense that he could hit big serves and perhaps even match Becker in the MPH department, why did he never try that?
Click to expand...

yeah he could do that, but somewhere 1985 I believe (when he was hitting serves about as hard as becker), I think a coach told him to slow it down or it would aggravate his existing shoulder problems. don't quote me though, could easily be wrong.
 
Edberg stated he always had a good kick serve so he used it. He felt it was boring to hit groundies all day and wanted to finish the point at the net. He developed it to perfectly suit his S&V style. He was one of the most consistently fast players to the net behind serve. By the time he recovered after a serve and took his first step to the net he was so far inside the court already.

His older videos (85~86) show his first serve used to be a lot flatter and his second serve tended to have more twist. I don't think the transition into the net was as smooth as in his later years. Lendl at this time commented that Edberg's serve is unlike anything he has faced (referring to good kick and funky body spin according to Mary Carillo). I cannot confirm but somebody stated that Edbeg was emulating McEnroe's serve somewhat (his set up). There is certainly some resemblence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBU6loARLsc

It seems by 1988 Edberg had pretty much given up the flat serve and were experimenting with extreme, backhand-like grip. The logical explanation would be that he felt this combination gave him better chance at winning more points.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3QogooJIzc

Edberg in 1989 had a very abbreviated take back which I felt was awkward. It was a very loopy shot and seemed to lack sting. Becker seemed to like it at Wimbledon. Edberg came close to bagging two GSs but no cigar. It must've been disappointing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgUljngu2do

Edberg towards the end 1989 had given up the abbreviated take back but his grip was getting more extreme. This form pretty much stayed until his second US Open win inm 1992.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB9Xluy2mHc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mRVUOixvG4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vZpMF4uGs0

Edberg's style would again undergo some major change in 1993. He was keeping his hitting arm pretty flat during take back as if to create more leverage. I for one think his S&V game reached its peak in 1993 depite his less than stellar results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtEKxVV_-s0

Edberg seemed to be trying to serve harder and harder towards the end of hi career. Although his serve was still solid and was able to use the second serve to attack the net, his aura of serving greatness seemed to have dissipated.

When Becker served first serves close to 60%, he was virtually unbeatable. When Edberg served first serves around 70%, he was virtually unbeatable. As Edberg's grip turned more extreme, it was obvious he wasn't going for speed. Tennis saw extremely diverse styles among players during Edberg's era. Had Edberg been born just 5 years later, I'm sure we would've seen a very different Edberg than the one we got to know.
 
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