The full list of would be ATG players, younger than Djokodal

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Often fans here throw "Djokodal kept at bay" the "would be ATG" in any other era arguments
let's compare how the younger players are comparing with some of the greats of the past.
a metric proposed by @socallefty , how many GS QF reached during their first 15 GS tournaments

Here are some examples from the (not so distant) past:
FO 1988 = SF
USO 1988 = SF
USO 1989 = SF
FO 1990 = finalist
USO 1990 = finalist
FO 1991 = finalist
Wim 1991 = QF
FO 1992 = SF
Wim 1992 = winner
Becker = 7 times reached the QF or better
AO 1984 = QF
Wim 1985 = winner
FO 1986 = QF
Wim 1986 = winner
USO 1986 = SF
FO 1987 = SF
Wim 1988 = finalist
FO 2005 = winner
FO 2006 = winner
W 2006 = finalist
USO 2006 = QF
AO 2007 = QF
FO 2007 = winner
Wim 2007 = finalist
USO 2001 = QF
USO 2002 = QF
AO 2003 = SF
Wim 2003 = SF
USO 2003 = winner
AO 2004 = QF
Wim 2004 = finalist
FO 2006 = QF
FO 2007 = SF
Wim 2007 = SF
USO 2007 = finalist
AO 2008 = winner
FO 2008 = SF
Sampras = 6 times reached the QF or better
USO 1990 = winner
USO 1991 = QF
FO 1992 = QF
Wim 1992 = SF
USO 1992 = finalist
AO 1993 = SF
FO 2000 = QF
USO 2000 = winner
Wim 2001 = QF
USO 2001 = SF
AO 2002 = finalist

-------------------------------------------------
FO 2016 = SF
FO 2017 = SF
AO 2019 = SF
FO 2020 = SF
USO 2019 = SF
USO 2019 = finalist
USO 2017 = QF
FO 2018 = QF

I thought also about the generation in-between, but wasn't sure which of the 26-28 years old players are in the "would be ATG" category beyond Thiem.
Could you help me to choose the right candidates?
Checchinato
Gerasimov
Caruso
Vesely
Londero
Thompson
Monteiro
Basilashvili
Krajinovic
Schwartzman
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
They are in good company.

In his first 18 slams, Federer only made 2 quarters.

Over the next 18 slams, he made 14 finals, winning 12 of them.

Rublev is about to go on a massive tear!!!

well, 2 generations after Djokodal already failed miserably at producing a competitor at least similar to those "weak era mugs" Roddick, Hewitt, Safin.
3rd generation quite likely as well. Not confirmed yet, but it looks like

who is your pick from the 3rd generation to break through any time soon?
 
D

Deleted member 748597

Guest
Blablavla only thinks about Djokodal's competition.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Ummm... Ummm... Sinner?

well, Sinner isn't yet a real competitor to Djokodal. Perhaps in 2021, if one sunny day the rankings will go back to 52 weeks instead of 2 years or even going to 3 years ranking

yet we keep reading:
1. Fed is a fraud who feasted on vacuum era, champion of the weak era mugs, inflated his stats due to Roddick & Baghdatis and was exposed the day Djokodal hit the ATP Tour
2. To all the questions about Djokodal enjoying the weakest era ever we hear that they keep the would be ATG competitors at bay and nothing is inflated
3. Sinner is how much, 13 years younger? when was it last time in tennis that some ATG enjoyed 13 years of not being challenged by a younger fellow ATG?
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Blablavla only thinks about Djokodal's competition.

that's all I'm reading here:
Fed is weak era fraud who feasted on some weak era mugs
Djokodal are stronk era champions who kept some mythical stronk competitors at bay

so I looked into the numbers
now I wonder which stronk competitors were kept at bay by Djokodal and whose stats were artificially inflated by lack of competition
 
that's all I'm reading here:
Fed is weak era fraud who feasted on some weak era mugs
Djokodal are stronk era champions who kept some mythical stronk competitors at bay

so I looked into the numbers
now I wonder which stronk competitors were kept at bay by Djokodal and whose stats were artificially inflated by lack of competition

That view is getting reversed big time: Hewitt should prepare himself for the ATG glory! Yeah!

smiley_emoticons_santagrin.gif
 
D

Deleted member 748597

Guest
that's all I'm reading here:
Fed is weak era fraud who feasted on some weak era mugs
Djokodal are stronk era champions who kept some mythical stronk competitors at bay

so I looked into the numbers
now I wonder which stronk competitors were kept at bay by Djokodal and whose stats were artificially inflated by lack of competition
I see it as more or less an even playing field.
 
D

Deleted member 748597

Guest
keep dreaming

wanna discuss Rios and Kafelnikov getting to #1?
or how many younger ATGs are chasing Djokovic?
You have also created some bias just like those Djokodal fans. It is true that there are no younger ATGs atm, but you're somewhat overrating that fact.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
You have also created some bias just like those Djokodal fans. It is true that there are no younger ATGs atm, but you're somewhat overrating that fact.

do I?

as I already said in another thread, and I haven't seen any answer:
Option 1.
there are 3-4 more or less equal players at the top and they are head & shoulders above the field
it means that they can cruise to SF more or less in energy saving mode, sometimes all the way to the final
so, they have 1 or 2 tough matches in the last 3 days of AO, then time off to recover
then IW + Miami, then time to recover
Madrid + Rome masters have a week of rest between them
RG, again, 1 or 2 tough matches at the end, and then a short time to recover
Wimbledon, 1 or 2 tough matches at the end, and then time to recover
USO, 1 or 2 tough matches at the end, and then time to recover

in this way, they can keep playing virtually forever, and still dominate the field because after an exhausting match there is enough time to recover and plan for next big tournament.

Option 2.
there is 1 or 2 players that are head & shoulders above the rest
but then you have another 5-10 folks that regularly give them hard time
this way, instead of 8 tough matches per year, the top guys get 20 tough matches per year, which result in more upsets, subsequently more lost points, and can and will occur also at earlier rounds, which amplifies the amount of lost points, which means that they can meet the rival of similar caliber at earlier stage than SF / F
so, this altogether makes it much more challenging, as after 30, recovery is tricky

who are those 5-10 guys that make Djokodal life complicated?
Murray with his metal hip?
Wawrinka that tries to recover after knee surgery?
the next gens that keep losing in R1 / R2 at GS?
 
D

Deleted member 748597

Guest
do I?

as I already said in another thread, and I haven't seen any answer:
Option 1.
there are 3-4 more or less equal players at the top and they are head & shoulders above the field
it means that they can cruise to SF more or less in energy saving mode, sometimes all the way to the final
so, they have 1 or 2 tough matches in the last 3 days of AO, then time off to recover
then IW + Miami, then time to recover
Madrid + Rome masters have a week of rest between them
RG, again, 1 or 2 tough matches at the end, and then a short time to recover
Wimbledon, 1 or 2 tough matches at the end, and then time to recover
USO, 1 or 2 tough matches at the end, and then time to recover

in this way, they can keep playing virtually forever, and still dominate the field because after an exhausting match there is enough time to recover and plan for next big tournament.

Option 2.
there is 1 or 2 players that are head & shoulders above the rest
but then you have another 5-10 folks that regularly give them hard time
this way, instead of 8 tough matches per year, the top guys get 20 tough matches per year, which result in more upsets, subsequently more lost points, and can and will occur also at earlier rounds, which amplifies the amount of lost points, which means that they can meet the rival of similar caliber at earlier stage than SF / F
so, this altogether makes it much more challenging, as after 30, recovery is tricky

who are those 5-10 guys that make Djokodal life complicated?
Murray with his metal hip?
Wawrinka that tries to recover after knee surgery?
the next gens that keep losing in R1 / R2 at GS?
Good eye test, mate. I don't like calling Federer's era weak or whatever, but your poasts make me want to join those Djokodal trolls.
 
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Sport

G.O.A.T.
Cherry-picked and incomplete stats. Why only their first 15 Slam appearances rather than their whole Slam appearances? A player can peak late and become an all-time great.

Thiem peaked late, but still could potentially be an ATG if he hadn't been stopped by Nadovic.

In effect, poor Thiem lost to Nadal and/or Djokovic in 6 potential Slam tiles (RG 2017, RG 2018, USO 2018, RG 2019, AO 2020 and USO 2020).

The ability to stop the Next Gen is crucial in the GOAT resume of any sport. Nadal and Djokovic suceeded in stopping the Next Gen, unlike Federer. Stopping the Next Gen is a sign of greatness and a necessary ability to be the GOAT.

Kasparov stopped the Next Gen Anand in chess. In basketball, Michael Jordan atopped the Next Gen aged 33, when he averaged 30 points per game and won the NBA in 1996. Both Cristiano and Messi have eclipsed the Next Gen in football, by winning the Ballon d'Or aged 33 both of them.

Nadal and Djokovic stopped Thiem from potentially winning 6 Slams and becoming an ATG (RG 2017, RG 2018, USO 2018, RG 2019, AO 2020 and USO 2020). Nadal also stopped the 10 years younger Medvedev in a Slam final, while Federer has never defeated a 10 years younger rival in a Slam final.
 
Tsitsipas, Medvedev, Thiem, Zverev are gonna win a Bunch of slams

They will for sure surpass Hewitt, Philipousis, Safin, Baghdatis, ARod etc

Just wait and watch
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Good eye test, mate. I don't like calling Federer's era weak or whatever, but your poasts make me want to join those Djokodal trolls.

well, as your comrade Lew says, numbers don't lie:
Kuerten, Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, Ferrero proved themselves on the ATP Tour early on
and they collectively sent Sampras and Agassi into retirement, for the reasons I explained.

Federer + Nadal + Djokovic are not getting that type of opposition these days. I guess you won't try to debate this.
And I guess you won't debate that 6 years is a significant difference, so, you can make an easy aftermath and see who is the biggest beneficiary.
Again, it is the way it is. Novak can only defeat whoever is on the other side of the net.
It is not his responsibility to make sure that there is young talent in the pipeline coming to ATP.

But throwing all those insults to accomplished pro players?
calling weak era day in, day out?
well, I wouldn't throw stones in a glass house
 
well, Sinner isn't yet a real competitor to Djokodal. Perhaps in 2021, if one sunny day the rankings will go back to 52 weeks instead of 2 years or even going to 3 years ranking

yet we keep reading:
1. Fed is a fraud who feasted on vacuum era, champion of the weak era mugs, inflated his stats due to Roddick & Baghdatis and was exposed the day Djokodal hit the ATP Tour
2. To all the questions about Djokodal enjoying the weakest era ever we hear that they keep the would be ATG competitors at bay and nothing is inflated
3. Sinner is how much, 13 years younger? when was it last time in tennis that some ATG enjoyed 13 years of not being challenged by a younger fellow ATG?

The big difference is that Federer Had a djokodal free period but djokodal didn't have a federer free period (and a period free of one of djokodal)

Either of the big 3 simply was too good to be stopped by good but not great guys like roddick, hewitt, murray, wawrinka or thiem (to me they are all about the same quality of player) so the field behind them doesn't matter all that much.

Obviously fed has an age disadvantage over djokodal but he did have a couple years alone which they never really had - even if you concede that fed was past prime djokodal still had each other.

I think this is the only difference.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Cherry-picked and incomplete stats. Why only their first 15 Slam appearances rather than their whole Slam appearances? A player can peak late and become an all-time great.

it wasn't my proposal. It was one of the Novak fans
just like the "Thiem would be ATG with 10 slams in any other era" resulted in "Roddick would be 16 GS titlist in other era"
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
The big difference is that Federer Had a djokodal free period but djokodal didn't have a federer free period.

Either of the big 3 simply was too good to be stopped by good but not great guys like roddick, hewitt, murray, wawrinka or thiem (to me they are all about the same quality of player) so the field behind them doesn't matter all that much.

Obviously fed has an age disadvantage over djokodal but he did have a couple years alone which they never really had - even if you concede that fed was past prime djokodal still had each other.

I think this is the only difference.

how many years did Fed have without Djokodal?
and how many years Djokodal have each other without any younger ATG?

let's see how this translates into GS titles & weeks at #1, the math isn't that complicated
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Dude chill, don't get so worked up geez xD

PS: Oh yeah, add Sinner too. That guy will do something big

please come back when that dude will do something
as of today, all these woulda coulda shoulda warriors are weaker than Hewitt, Philipousis, Safin, Baghdatis, ARod
Hewitt, Safin and Roddick reached to #1 by defeating whoever was on the other side of the net, Sampras included ;)
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Nadal and Djokovic stopped Thiem from potentially winning 6 Slams and becoming an ATG (RG 2017, RG 2018, USO 2018, RG 2019, AO 2020 and USO 2020). Nadal also stopped the 10 years younger Medvedev in a Slam final, while Federer has never defeated a 10 years younger rival in a Slam final.

using that logic Roddick could have 16 GS in another era
woulda coulda shoulda

Nadal didn't wait for anyone to retier
Djokovic didn't wait for anyone to retier
why Thiem should wait?
 
D

Deleted member 748597

Guest
well, as your comrade Lew says, numbers don't lie:
Kuerten, Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, Ferrero proved themselves on the ATP Tour early on
and they collectively sent Sampras and Agassi into retirement, for the reasons I explained.

Federer + Nadal + Djokovic are not getting that type of opposition these days. I guess you won't try to debate this.
And I guess you won't debate that 6 years is a significant difference, so, you can make an easy aftermath and see who is the biggest beneficiary.
Again, it is the way it is. Novak can only defeat whoever is on the other side of the net.
It is not his responsibility to make sure that there is young talent in the pipeline coming to ATP.

But throwing all those insults to accomplished pro players?
calling weak era day in, day out?
well, I wouldn't throw stones in a glass house
Novak Djokovic also had to break the duopoly consisted of an in-form two ATGs. His competition was extremely tough in the beginning and then became weaker. It became very weak in 16-20. Just look at all the Slam draws and you'll see that Fedalovic's competition evened out in the end. And yes, 2015 wasn't that weak. Fed was post-prime, but still not bad like some of you are trying to paint him.

I am tired of Lew's crap. But I am also tired of having to read the same thing over and over from you.
 
please come back when that dude will do something
as of today, all these woulda coulda shoulda warriors are weaker than Hewitt, Philipousis, Safin, Baghdatis, ARod
Hewitt, Safin and Roddick reached to #1 by defeating whoever was on the other side of the net, Sampras included ;)
Agreed for as of today. but this gen will win much more slams than that gen eventually as the Big 3 depart, it's a sad truth, but it is true:giggle:
 
Novak Djokovic also had to break the duopoly consisted of an in-form two ATGs. His competition was extremely tough in the beginning and then became weaker. It became very weak in 16-20. Just look at all the Slam draws and you'll see that Fedalovic's competition evened out in the end. And yes, 2015 wasn't that weak. Fed was post-prime, but still not bad like some of you are trying to paint him.

I am tired of Lew's crap. But I am also tired of having to read the same thing over and over from you.
Yepp. If you see 2007 Djokovic and 2015 Fed were of a similar level.

Young 2007 Novak gave troubles to Fed as much as an old 2015 Fed gave Djokovic.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Agreed for as of today. but this gen will win much more slams than that gen eventually as the Big 3 , it's a sad truth, but it is true:giggle:

which gen are you dreaming about?

1. if you're talking about Tsitsipas, Medvedev, Thiem, Zverev, you can compare their achievements with Hewitt, Roddick & Safin at their age and draw conclusion who is a tougher opponent to be defeated.
2. Big 3 won't voluntarily leave. Either career ending injuries need to happen, see Murray & Wawrinka, or they need to be defeated. Please come back when somebody will start beating the crap out of them instead of asking for autograph or thanking them for the lesson after being humiliated

can you imagine Nadal or Djokovic asking Federer autograph after being defeated?
 
D

Deleted member 775898

Guest
Cherry-picked and incomplete stats. Why only their first 15 Slam appearances rather than their whole Slam appearances? A player can peak late and become an all-time great.

Thiem peaked late, but still could potentially be an ATG if he hadn't been stopped by Nadovic.

In effect, poor Thiem lost to Nadal and/or Djokovic in 6 potential Slam tiles (RG 2017, RG 2018, USO 2018, RG 2019, AO 2020 and USO 2020).

The ability to stop the Next Gen is crucial in the GOAT resume of any sport. Nadal and Djokovic suceeded in stopping the Next Gen, unlike Federer. Stopping the Next Gen is a sign of greatness and a necessary ability to be the GOAT.

Kasparov stopped the Next Gen Anand in chess. In basketball, Michael Jordan atopped the Next Gen aged 33, when he averaged 30 points per game and won the NBA in 1996. Both Cristiano and Messi have eclipsed the Next Gen in football, by winning the Ballon d'Or aged 33 both of them.

Nadal and Djokovic stopped Thiem from potentially winning 6 Slams and becoming an ATG (RG 2017, RG 2018, USO 2018, RG 2019, AO 2020 and USO 2020). Nadal also stopped the 10 years younger Medvedev in a Slam final, while Federer has never defeated a 10 years younger rival in a Slam final.
Untestable, therefore irrelevant.
 
D

Deleted member 777746

Guest
Cherry-picked and incomplete stats. Why only their first 15 Slam appearances rather than their whole Slam appearances? A player can peak late and become an all-time great.

Thiem peaked late, but still could potentially be an ATG if he hadn't been stopped by Nadovic.

In effect, poor Thiem lost to Nadal and/or Djokovic in 6 potential Slam tiles (RG 2017, RG 2018, USO 2018, RG 2019, AO 2020 and USO 2020).

The ability to stop the Next Gen is crucial in the GOAT resume of any sport. Nadal and Djokovic suceeded in stopping the Next Gen, unlike Federer. Stopping the Next Gen is a sign of greatness and a necessary ability to be the GOAT.

Kasparov stopped the Next Gen Anand in chess. In basketball, Michael Jordan atopped the Next Gen aged 33, when he averaged 30 points per game and won the NBA in 1996. Both Cristiano and Messi have eclipsed the Next Gen in football, by winning the Ballon d'Or aged 33 both of them.

Nadal and Djokovic stopped Thiem from potentially winning 6 Slams and becoming an ATG (RG 2017, RG 2018, USO 2018, RG 2019, AO 2020 and USO 2020). Nadal also stopped the 10 years younger Medvedev in a Slam final, while Federer has never defeated a 10 years younger rival in a Slam final.
Holding down Nextgen isn't necessarily a requirement for ATGs imo, look at Borg and Mac, Connors and Mac, etc. Yes, it so happens Pete domesticated everyone in his gen, but that's unusual. It looks like Djokodal have managed the same, still a unique feat.
The problem with Fed is that those two ATGS/GOAT candidates he failed to suppress didn't rise as he was hanging up his racket, they rose when he was smack dab in the middle of his dominance and he couldn't keep them down. That's the problem.
 
which gen are you dreaming about?

1. if you're talking about Tsitsipas, Medvedev, Thiem, Zverev, you can compare their achievements with Hewitt, Roddick & Safin at their age and draw conclusion who is a tougher opponent to be defeated.
2. Big 3 won't voluntarily leave. Either career ending injuries need to happen, see Murray & Wawrinka, or they need to be defeated. Please come back when somebody will start beating the crap out of them instead of asking for autograph or thanking them for the lesson after being humiliated

can you imagine Nadal or Djokovic asking Federer autograph after being defeated?

Hewitt, Roddick earned most of their accolades before Fed took up the throne. Them achieving at a younger age can't be taken as a yardstick. Everyone has their age for success, it's not fixed for everybody, that's the beauty of the sport. The current gen have a long career ahead of them, and they will win slams, somebody's got to.

If you want same age comparisons. Novak has achieved more at his age today than Fed at the same age (33). So can we conclude Djokovic greater than Federer? No. Fed still has a 3 slam lead
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Holding down Nextgen isn't necessarily a requirement for ATGs imo, look at Borg and Mac, Connors and Mac, etc. Yes, it so happens Pete domesticated everyone in his gen, but that's unusual. It looks like Djokodal have managed the same, still a unique feat.
The problem with Fed is that those two ATGS/GOAT candidates he failed to suppress didn't rise as he was hanging up his racket, they rose when he was smack dab in the middle of his dominance and he couldn't keep them down. That's the problem.

Kuerten, Rios, Kafelnikov send greetings to you and to Pete.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Hewitt, Roddick earned most of their accolades before Fed took up the throne. Them achieving at a younger age can't be taken as a yardstick. Everyone has their age for success, it's not fixed for everybody, that's the beauty of the sport. The current gen have a long career ahead of them, and they will win slams, somebody's got to.

If you want same age comparisons. Novak has achieved more at his age today than Fed at the same age (33). So can we conclude Djokovic greater than Federer? No. Fed still has a 3 slam lead

What was the highest ranking reached by Djokovic when he was 24? How many GS had Djokovic by 24?
What was the highest ranking reached by Nadal when he was 24? How many GS had Nadal by 24?
What was the highest ranking reached by Sampras when he was 24? How many GS had Sampras by 24?
What was the highest ranking reached by Agassi when he was 24? How many GS had Agassi by 24?
What was the highest ranking reached by Becker when he was 24? How many GS had Becker by 24?

and how do Safin, Roddick and Hewitt compare to these guys?
and how do Medvedev, Tsitsipas, Zverev, Berrettini compare to these guys?
and how do Thiem and the genereation that is currently 26-28 / 24-30 compare to those guys? (Krajinovic, Sonego etc.)
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
...and apparently no argument alongside those greetings. Send my compliments to them as well.

as it's not worth to spend time on arguments with you, there are no arguments
in so many threads you proved that you only care about hating against one athlete, why would someone want to spend time on having a discussion with you?
hence the greetings from Rios and Kafelnikov when Sampras was watching like they get to #1
 
What was the highest ranking reached by Djokovic when he was 24? How many GS had Djokovic by 24?
What was the highest ranking reached by Nadal when he was 24? How many GS had Nadal by 24?
What was the highest ranking reached by Sampras when he was 24? How many GS had Sampras by 24?
What was the highest ranking reached by Agassi when he was 24? How many GS had Agassi by 24?
What was the highest ranking reached by Becker when he was 24? How many GS had Becker by 24?

and how do Safin, Roddick and Hewitt compare to these guys?
and how do Medvedev, Tsitsipas, Zverev, Berrettini compare to these guys?
and how do Thiem and the genereation that is currently 26-28 / 24-30 compare to those guys? (Krajinovic, Sonego etc.)
Who are you to put an 'age' barrier? Didn't you read when I wrote that everybody is different and will have different ages of success? How many slams did Wawrinka/Murray have at the age of '24'? ZERO

Murray and Wawrinka are now miles ahead in achievements from the Hewitt, Roddick etc Gen :p

Any comparison of greatness/betterness can be done when we see the entire career of players. There is a long time for the upcoming Gen to retire so we will see how much they achieve
 
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blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Who are you to put an 'age' barrier? Didn't you read when I wrote that everybody is different and will have different ages of success? How many slams did Wawrinka/Murray have at the age of '24'? ZERO

Murray and Wawrinka are now miles ahead in achievements from the Hewitt, Roddick etc Gen :p

Any comparison of greatness/bitterness can be done when we see the entire career of players. There is a long time for the upcoming Gen to retire so we will see how much they achieve

really?
let me know when Wawrinka reaches #1 in the world
 
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