The GOAT does not run from his rivals

Tenez101

Banned
Lendl never ran from Becker who owned him...Agassi never ran from Sampras...Roddick never ran from Federer.

I have always been a staunch supporter of Fed in the GOAT debate, but this latest loss casts some doubt on Federer's current mentality regarding his rivalry with Nadal. Do you think the thought of playing Rafa in the next round was a factor for Federer in the Robredo match? If so, it also raises some questions concerning the 2010 and 2011 USO SF losses to Djokovic. I know the guy is 32, but he should not be going out in straights to guys like Robredo (whom he owns).
 

Tenez101

Banned
Federer is 32. Consistency starts to go down when you're older.
Robredo is 31 though, so physical condition is most likely similar for both players. One could make the argument that Robredo has less "career mileage" though.
 
Not buying for one second this crap people keep saying about him being scared of facing Nadal. Why even play the sport at all if that's your thought process.

You don't win 77 titles, 17 being Grand Slam titles with that kind of mentality.
 

Def

Semi-Pro
You say the GOAT does not run from his rivals and then you mention players who are not GOAT. If Federer runs from his rivals (which he didn't) then wouldn't that mean that the GOAT runs from his rivals.
 

Tenez101

Banned
You say the GOAT does not run from his rivals and then you mention players who are not GOAT. If Federer runs from his rivals (which he didn't) then wouldn't that mean that the GOAT runs from his rivals.
You're right that none of the players I mentioned are in the GOAT discussion. However, the GOAT, being the greatest of all time, should be able to accomplish anything lesser players were able to accomplish, such as facing and overcoming one's rivals.

Nadal, for instance, was owned by Novak in 2011, taking 6 staight losses to him in finals. Yet he has almost completely turned the dynamic of the rivalry back around in the last 2 years. As great as Fed is, if he had lost 7 straight times to Nadal in finals (including 3 major finals in a row), I don't see him recovering from that like Nadal has.
 

granddog29

Banned
Yes it is pretty obvious what happened. Straight sets loss to Robredo, who is equally old and past his prime as he is. Robredo who bends down and takes it up the rear his whole career from even the second tier top players, and who Federer always has beaten easily. Yeah right. Running from your rivals is indeed what happened, and no there isnt any potential GOAT who would do that.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
He's played a lot of "poor matches" this season. Maybe he's lost his motivation at the same time as his fitness.
 
No, I think he would have liked nothing better than to be in a big night match versus Nadal at this year's U.S. Open. Those are the kind of matches that he lives for. That is the kind of match that probably still gives him motivation to practice and keep entering majors. I don't buy the "scared to play Nadal" argument anymore than the "Nadal didn't want to play Federer on a hard court" argument. I think Federer is just flat out much more inconsistent these days, during matches, and even from match to match and tournament to tournament. With that said, he's probably going to primarily regroup and shoot for the 2014 AO next.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
But this is worse than being inconsistent. He's actually rather consistent at underperforming this year.
 

eliars

Hall of Fame
I think it's ludicrous to suggest Federer lost on purpose vs Robredo. You may be able to detract a lot from Federer by bringing up his matches vs Nadal, but to say he's been consciously avoiding him is simply not true. Fed kept making FO finals knowing he would face Nadal. 2011 SF FO is further proof of that along with his recent match vs Haas at Cincy where he fought from a set and a break down I believe.

Regarding today's match Robredo played great and really targeted Federer's backhand. Federer was playing great points in spurts and obviously employed an aggressive display having the Nadal match in mind. Federer just seemed to freeze on those BPs he had today, which is not an uncommon sight and Robredo took advantage.
 

DragonBlaze

Hall of Fame
He's played a lot of "poor matches" this season. Maybe he's lost his motivation at the same time as his fitness.
The warning signs were there when he started calling this year a "transition year" after the AO. I kept wondering WTF he's on about and he repeated that sentence a few times. Then the losses began and now we arrive at the disastrous Wimbledon/US Open.

My guess (and it is only that, a guess) is that 2012 took a lot out of him (he played a lot considering his age), and he thought he could take it slightly easy this year and get away with it (and probably go all out again 2014). Well he was kidding himself because he can't. Or maybe he knew he had to take it easy because his body just couldn't keep up so was setting the bar low. Safe to say he succeeded.

It's been a "transition year" all right, transition into retirement :lol:.

As for the OP, could you please list out all the players that Federer was terrified off when he lost to

Brands
Delbonis
Stakhovsky
Nishikori
Benneteau

While you're at it, could you also tell me what exactly happened during Federer's matches against

Wawrinka at IW
Janowicz at Rome
Haas at Cinci (down a set and a break to boot)

Did Federer suffer through temporary amnesia and forget that Nadal was going to be waiting for him on the other side? Or was it dementia since I keep hearing he's a geriatric now? Silly Fed, must have forgotten to take his memory pills!
 
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But this is worse than being inconsistent. He's actually rather consistent at underperforming this year.
Yes that's true. It's the worse year he's had since 2001 or 2002. I think this loss is just a continuation of that. It's just not related to being wary of playing Nadal in the QF. For Federer losing earlier than expected to Robredo is not something he would relish in my opinion, compared to actually competing and very possibly losing to Nadal. It's certainly not going to be easy, but the Sampras example is somewhat instructive. A great player can go for a long tough stretch and still make a deep run at a major. It seems like that's Federer is still playing for, but he has every right to go out on his own terms, anyway he sees fit really.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Yes it is pretty obvious what happened. Straight sets loss to Robredo, who is equally old and past his prime as he is. Robredo who bends down and takes it up the rear his whole career from even the second tier top players, and who Federer always has beaten easily. Yeah right. Running from your rivals is indeed what happened, and no there isnt any potential GOAT who would do that.
After watching the match it looked exactly like you said, no excuse for losing like that to robredo. It sure looked like a tank job.
 

Nitish

Professional
Why didn't he tank in Rome then? Surely his chances are better at the USO than at Rome on clay.He is becoming extremely inconsistent and his lack of confidence doesn't help when things aren't going his way.
 

granddog29

Banned
Why didn't he tank in Rome then? Surely his chances are better at the USO than at Rome on clay.He is becoming extremely inconsistent and his lack of confidence doesn't help when things aren't going his way.
Since Rome is meaningless. Everyone knows Nadal at any stage of his career will crush Federer at any stage of his on clay. However to take the Grand Slam duck of being swept by Nadal at all 4 majors (and only one Federer himself could ever win vs Nadal at- Wimbledon) is something he probably couldnt stomach so just avoided it.
 

WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
Robredo is 31 though, so physical condition is most likely similar for both players. One could make the argument that Robredo has less "career mileage" though.
it doesn't matter.

He owned roddick for years and then started losing to him again.

He owned hewitt for years and then lost to him.

He went like 13-0 against soderling and then lost to him.

He has started losing to all of his pigeons because he has declined so much more than they have.
 

DragonBlaze

Hall of Fame
Since Rome is meaningless. Everyone knows Nadal at any stage of his career will crush Federer at any stage of his on clay. However to take the Grand Slam duck of being swept by Nadal at all 4 majors (and only one Federer himself could ever win vs Nadal at- Wimbledon) is something he probably couldnt stomach so just avoided it.
Ermmm why didn't he tank IW? Cinci?

Why didn't he tank RG SF 2011?

Federer sure likes to tank at the worst times I must say. Shows up on surfaces that favour Nadal but tanks the ones that favour him!
 

Antonio Puente

Hall of Fame
Fed didn't tank. If you've watched him over the past year you know he's capable of losing to anyone.

That said, in his press conference he said he wasn't all that disappointed because he wouldn't have beaten Rafa anyway.
 

Tenez101

Banned
Fed didn't tank. If you've watched him over the past year you know he's capable of losing to anyone.

That said, in his press conference he said he wasn't all that disappointed because he wouldn't have beaten Rafa anyway.
I don't think he intentionally tanked, he just had some kind of psychological block knowing he'd most likely face Rafa in the next round.

That quote does speak volumes about his current mentality though.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Fed didn't tank. If you've watched him over the past year you know he's capable of losing to anyone.

That said, in his press conference he said he wasn't all that disappointed because he wouldn't have beaten Rafa anyway.
So it was at the back of his mind in the end. Without deliberately botching the match, not believing in his chances in the next round may not have helped his self-belief in the Robredo match (on a subconscious level).
 

fatichar

Rookie
Lendl never ran from Becker who owned him...Agassi never ran from Sampras...Roddick never ran from Federer.

I have always been a staunch supporter of Fed in the GOAT debate, but this latest loss casts some doubt on Federer's current mentality regarding his rivalry with Nadal. Do you think the thought of playing Rafa in the next round was a factor for Federer in the Robredo match? If so, it also raises some questions concerning the 2010 and 2011 USO SF losses to Djokovic. I know the guy is 32, but he should not be going out in straights to guys like Robredo (whom he owns).
So you thinka playrt who wants to tank will decide to do it

in straight sets vs a player like Robredo

And in 5 sets, with match points vs djokovic! So that his tanking ambition would depend on whether djoker returns his serve at MP or not!!
 

granddog29

Banned
Ermmm why didn't he tank IW? Cinci?

Why didn't he tank RG SF 2011?

Federer sure likes to tank at the worst times I must say. Shows up on surfaces that favour Nadal but tanks the ones that favour him!
LOL you pretend as if Federer had any chance vs Nadal here. He didnt. The only play he might have a chance vs Nadal right now is the WTF, and even there I would doubt if he would this year. Heck the WTF is the only major event he has really had a chance vs Nadal since 2008 or at the latest 2010 now. Does anyone seriously think there is a slam since Roland Garros/Wimbledon 2008 that Federer was ever going to beat Nadal at if they played, other than "maybe" U.S Open 2009. That includes even the couple Wimbledons Nadal crashed early, since if he made it deep he would have been by then in form and thus beaten Federer.
 

DragonBlaze

Hall of Fame
Fed didn't tank. If you've watched him over the past year you know he's capable of losing to anyone.

That said, in his press conference he said he wasn't all that disappointed because he wouldn't have beaten Rafa anyway.
Exactly. He IS capable of losing to anyone these days.

I don't think he intentionally tanked, he just had some kind of psychological block knowing he'd most likely face Rafa in the next round.

That quote does speak volumes about his current mentality though.
So it was at the back of his mind in the end. Without deliberately botching the match, not believing in his chances in the next round may not have helped his self-belief in the Robredo match (on a subconscious level).
No, no it wasn't

Q. What about the anticipation, maybe the disappointment of not getting into the quarterfinals against Rafa?

ROGER FEDERER: Yeah, I mean, it would have been a quarters, not a final. Not that much of a disappointment at the end of the day. If I'm playing like this, I'm not going to beat Rafa, or Kohlschreiber, for that matter. So, for me, I didn't think of that. I've been too often in this situation. I was fighting with other things in my match today. Not thinking too far ahead of myself, especially the level I was playing at.
He is ASKED about Rafa. And he replies that he wouldn't have beaten either if he's playing like this. What did you want him to say? That he would have had a shot at Rafa :lol:. Then cue the hater brigade about how he's so arrogant yada yada. You guys realise Federer has been openly saying he hopes the Rafa QF ends up happening this time right? He said it in multiple interviews.
 
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moonballs

Hall of Fame
He has lost to many lower ranked players this year. Reaching the QF, even losing to Nadal would have been a better result than not reaching QF, obviously. It is complete bullcrap to say he intentionally avoids Nadal. Just think how many FO finals he has reached.

I hope roger get his conditions back up quickly and mount a comeback in 2014. No 18 is never out of question until he officially retires.
 

Nitish

Professional
So you thinka playrt who wants to tank will decide to do it

in straight sets vs a player like Robredo

And in 5 sets, with match points vs djokovic! So that his tanking ambition would depend on whether djoker returns his serve at MP or not!!
Its really funny that Fed would play one of the matches of his life at the FO to play Nadal in the finals but would tank to avoid playing him at the USO the very same year.
 

DragonBlaze

Hall of Fame
LOL you pretend as if Federer had any chance vs Nadal here. He didnt. The only play he might have a chance vs Nadal right now is the WTF, and even there I would doubt if he would this year. Heck the WTF is the only major event he has really had a chance vs Nadal since 2008 or at the latest 2010 now. Does anyone seriously think there is a slam since Roland Garros/Wimbledon 2008 that Federer was ever going to beat Nadal at if they played, other than "maybe" U.S Open 2009. That includes even the couple Wimbledons Nadal crashed early, since if he made it deep he would have been by then in form and thus beaten Federer.
That's exactly the opposite of what I'm saying genius. :lol:

He DIDN'T have a shot vs Nadal at IW, he DIDN'T at Rome, nor at Cinci. He has been in terrible form all year long, while Rafa is just the opposite. And YET he turned up to those matches. That is exactly my point. He didn't run away. He either showed up and lost, or he just lost earlier in spectacularly bad fashion because he has sucked all year anyway.
 

Tenez101

Banned
Its really funny that Fed would play one of the matches of his life at the FO to play Nadal in the finals but would tank to avoid playing him at the USO the very same year.
At FO, Nadal was the overwhelming favorite which took some pressure off Roger. USO is sort of like Roger's 'last bastion" against Rafa: Federer is the greater hardcourt player and so would be the "favorite" in such a hypothetical match. Subconsciouly, Federer might want to retain this ambiguity in the head-to-head discussion. People can always say "Nadal never beat Federer at the USO, Fed would have beat him..., etc."
 

Towser83

G.O.A.T.
Robredo is 31 though, so physical condition is most likely similar for both players. One could make the argument that Robredo has less "career mileage" though.
Do you remember Fed at 31? I seem to remember him winning Wimbledon, 3 masters and getting back to number 1.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
No, I think he would have liked nothing better than to be in a big night match versus Nadal at this year's U.S. Open. Those are the kind of matches that he lives for. That is the kind of match that probably still gives him motivation to practice and keep entering majors. I don't buy the "scared to play Nadal" argument anymore than the "Nadal didn't want to play Federer on a hard court" argument. I think Federer is just flat out much more inconsistent these days, during matches, and even from match to match and tournament to tournament. With that said, he's probably going to primarily regroup and shoot for the 2014 AO next.
You pretty much got it all right, right here.
 

DragonBlaze

Hall of Fame
He hesitated and said, "or Kohlschreiber," to be politically correct, but it was obvious it was Rafa who was on his mind.
Yes. Because the question was asked about Rafa lol. And he tacked on Kohlschreiber straight away. This is heading into post match hand-shake analysis territory anyway so I'm not gonna bother more with that.

In my opinion, the only thing that is obvious to see is that Federer has played awful this year, and has been capable of losing to anyone on any given day, proven so by his results. The result is hardly surprising when looking at his level of play over the year.
 

Rippy

Hall of Fame
I don't think Federer is running from Nadal. Why would he always have previously went deep into clay tournaments when Nadal almost always beat him on the surface? I think Federer is just losing more often now, he's a worse player, I don't think he tanked.
 

Rippy

Hall of Fame
I don't think he intentionally tanked, he just had some kind of psychological block knowing he'd most likely face Rafa in the next round.

That quote does speak volumes about his current mentality though.
Yes, that is definitely possible IMO.
 

Nitish

Professional
At FO, Nadal was the overwhelming favorite which took some pressure off Roger. USO is sort of like Roger's 'last bastion" against Rafa: Federer is the greater hardcourt player and so would be the "favorite" in such a hypothetical match. Subconsciouly, Federer might want to retain this ambiguity in the head-to-head discussion. People can always say "Nadal never beat Federer at the USO, Fed would have beat him..., etc."
Once again did he count on Novak to make that FH on match point ? that seems to be awfully risky for a guy who wants to tank.Why bother getting to match points if you are going to tank? seems too risky as the guy on the other side can always make an error.
I think you guys are making too much of this loss.Fed has been inconsistent all year.These kind of losses shouldn't really surprise us at this stage of his career.He needs some sort of motivation to get back into form,I think a match with Rafa would have helped him in this regard .At Cinci he was horrible against Haas but played much better against Nadal.
 

Tenez101

Banned
Once again did he count on Novak to make that FH on match point ? that seems to be awfully risky for a guy who wants to tank.Why bother getting to match points if you are going to tank? seems too risky as the guy on the other side can always make an error.
I think you guys are making too much of this loss.Fed has been inconsistent all year.These kind of losses shouldn't really surprise us at this stage of his career.He needs some sort of motivation to get back into form,I think a match with Rafa would have helped him in this regard .At Cinci he was horrible against Haas but played much better against Nadal.
No, I'm sure he wanted to win that match (as any self-respecting pro does), but the fear of Nadal played with his head a little on that MP, causing him to put in a tentative first serve. Later in the game, he probably realized just how close he was to facing Rafa and one can see how tight he got (double faulting). After that game, he won something like 4 out of the last 21 points, whereas he was dominating earlier in the set. There must be something mental going on there.
 

DragonBlaze

Hall of Fame
No, I'm sure he wanted to win that match (as any self-respecting pro does), but the fear of Nadal played with his head a little on that MP, causing him to put in a tentative first serve. Later in the game, he probably realized just how close he was to facing Rafa and one can see how tight he got (double faulting). After that game, he won something like 4 out of the last 21 points, whereas he was dominating earlier in the set. There must be something mental going on there.
So let me get this straight, leading all the way up to that match point Federer (but especially the first two sets when he had such a lead) doesn't worry about it but then suddenly BAM Nadal pops into his head.

You realise how ridiculous that sounds? Do you REALLY think Federer could have won two sets of Djokovic on HC in his absolutely best year, and gotten to match point if he was going about it half-assedly?

Man you must think Federer is some tennis god who can just choose to win any point/match as long as he really really wants to. Nothing at all to do with the opponent.
 
M

monfed

Guest
I think it's ludicrous to suggest Federer lost on purpose vs Robredo. You may be able to detract a lot from Federer by bringing up his matches vs Nadal, but to say he's been consciously avoiding him is simply not true. Fed kept making FO finals knowing he would face Nadal. 2011 SF FO is further proof of that along with his recent match vs Haas at Cincy where he fought from a set and a break down I believe.

Regarding today's match Robredo played great and really targeted Federer's backhand. Federer was playing great points in spurts and obviously employed an aggressive display having the Nadal match in mind. Federer just seemed to freeze on those BPs he had today, which is not an uncommon sight and Robredo took advantage.
Too much sense for TW,sorry. BTW it's really funny Fed would tank just to avoid Ralph when Fed didn't tank one RG SF when he knew he had very little chance in a RG final, this is the USO a fast HC where he still has like a 10% chance.
 

DragonBlaze

Hall of Fame
Too much sense for TW,sorry. BTW it's really funny Fed would tank just to avoid Ralph when Fed didn't tank one RG SF when he knew he had very little chance in a RG final, this is the USO a fast HC where he still has like a 10% chance.
At the end of the day I always have to remind myself. Very few people actually come here to "talk tennis" which would atleast imply a certain level of debate and logic in said debates and ideally people with open minds who are willing to concede and change their opinions when proven to be wrong.

Instead these forums are more about spouting your personal opinion and sticking with it till the end of times, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. Look no further than Gamesampras (we all know who it is) :lol:.
 

Nitish

Professional
No, I'm sure he wanted to win that match (as any self-respecting pro does), but the fear of Nadal played with his head a little on that MP, causing him to put in a tentative first serve. Later in the game, he probably realized just how close he was to facing Rafa and one can see how tight he got (double faulting). After that game, he won something like 4 out of the last 21 points, whereas he was dominating earlier in the set. There must be something mental going on there.
Oh now I see your point but I dont think that could be it.He hit a good serve on the second match point and Novak did well to get the ball back and iirc Feds FH hit the tape and sailed wide.I think he got tight since he blew couple of MPs and was facing a BP.For me Novak won that match with that return more than Fed choking the match away.

Its more of an issue when he actually plays Rafa,he gets into the lead and things change completely with a bad game or sometimes even a bad shot.He would have probably liked to play Rafa in that final,Nadal was not in great place mentally with all the loses to Djokovic and Fed gave him a pretty tough match at the FO that year.I dont think Fed has avoided Nadal in any situation I mean if that was the case we wouldn't have had so many matches on clay.Anyway I don't think he tanked today,he just played a bad match and his lack of confidence was telling on big points.Credit to Tommy as well,he played a solid match.
 
Generally speaking, trying to read the minds of all time great tennis players is not a good idea. Federer, like most all pro tennis players, really does have a "one match at a time" mindset. Federer is still just going out and trying his hardest each match. It has to be that way, otherwise there's no way he could have achieved so much. Having said that, I think he's absolutely at a loss for why his tennis form seems to have left so quickly.
 
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