The GOAT that never came... Wilson ProStaff Limited Edition - Midsize 95 ** 17mm beam width**

[vsbabolat]

Just because Connors started using it in 1984 doesn't mean it wasn't already available before then. We all know how long it must have taken Connors to give up on his beloved T-2000's and use something else. Heck even after using the PS 85 for only a couple of months, he went right back to using his T-2000 for several more years. How long did it take between the time the Pure Drive was introduced before "everyone was switching to it"? People probably didn't switch to the PS 85 until they saw Connors using it at the '84 US Open.

It clearly states that the PS 85 was introduced in 1983 and that it didn't have a bumper, but that a bumper was added in 1984. Since we all know that the Chicago version was originally sold without a bumper (I used to own one), it must have already been on the market prior to 1984.

And since the PS 85 was introduced in 1983, it had to take them some time to develop it and then put it onto production, and they didn't even start developing the 85 until after the 110 was already completed and in production. There's no reason to put something into regular production unless you were going to sell it or else it would be a huge cost to the company. Thus, the 110 must have come out well before the 85, and surmise it was probably around 1982 or at least early 1983, if the 85 came out in late 1983.

Sorry, but I'm going to believe the Wilson engineer who actually oversaw the design and production of the Pro Staffs than rely on your sometimes shaky memory (don't forget you also mistakenly remembered all standard non-Superlight Donnay Allwoods to have white paint on the outer hoop until several of us proved otherwise).

You can choose to believe what you want to. I also had a Chicago Wilson Pro Staff Midsize in 1984. Chris Evert and Stefan Edberg played with the Pro Staff for all of 1984. Prior to that they were using different racquets. In 1983 Edberg used the Wilson Javelin and Chris Evert was using the wood Chris Evert Pro Staff. In fact no one used the Pro Staff prior to 1984. In 1983 Aaron Krickstein was using the Wilson Ultra 2 Midsize. The Wilson Pro Staff was a model year 1984.

You were also wrong about the McEnroe's Dunlop Maxply Fort. Until you were proved wrong by me and other posters.

Here is Edberg winning his first Pro title in Milan in March 1984 with his bumperless Chicago Pro Staff Midsize. In 1983 Edberg won the Junior Grand Slam with the Wilson Javelin.

 

[BreakPoint]

Y
You were also wrong about the McEnroe's Dunlop Maxply Fort. Until you were proved wrong by me and other posters.

Here is Edberg winning his first Pro title in Milan in March 1984 with his bumperless Chicago Pro Staff Midsize. In 1983 Edberg won the Junior Grand Slam with the Wilson Javelin.

So if Edberg won a tournament with it in March 1984, don't you think he would have used it or practiced with it for a few months first to become comfortable enough and confident enough with it to not only play a tournament with it but also to win his first ever with it? Just because a pro won a tournament with a racquet in March 1984 is not proof that's when the racquet came out. Sampras switched from a Donnay Pro Cynetic to a ProStaff 85 around 1987 (or 1988). Does that mean that's when the PS 85 came out? LOL

And what was I wrong about McEnroe's Dunlop Maxply Fort? I don't recall.

 

[vsbabolat]

^^You could not buy the Wilson Pro Staff in 1983 because it was not for sale. The Wilson Pro Staff line of racquets did not go on sale until 1984. There was no advertisements for the Wilson Pro Staff until it was released in 1984. The Wilson Pro Staff was not reviewed by Tennis magazine and World Tennis the two biggest tennis publications until it went on sale in 1984.
Edberg won the Junior Grans Slam in 1983 with the Wilson Javelin. In December 1983 Edberg was winning the Junior Australian Open with the Wilson Javelin.

 

[BreakPoint]

^^You could not buy the Wilson Pro Staff in 1983 because it was not for sale. The Wilson Pro Staff line of racquets did not go on sale until 1984. There was no advertisements for the Wilson Pro Staff until it was released in 1984. The Wilson Pro Staff was not reviewed by Tennis magazine and World Tennis the two biggest tennis publications until it went on sale in 1984.
Edberg won the Junior Grans Slam in 1983 with the Wilson Javelin. In December 1983 Edberg was winning the Junior Australian Open with the Wilson Javelin.

Again, there's no rule that says a player has to switch to a new racquet as soon as it comes out. How long did it take Tsonga to switch to the APD after it came out? Wilson did not create a marketing campaign around Edberg for the PS 85, he was a junior. The guy at Wilson who was responsible for developing the Pro Staff said it was introduced in 1983. This is not even debatable. Are you also going to argue with Lee Iacocca that the Ford Mustang was not introduced in 1964? LOL

Apparently, Donnay produced in their Belgian factories some PS85 for Wilson circa 1983. They still look like a PS85 but don't have a bumper, and the 3 letter code indicates that it was produce in Belgium.

Regards

Paul

http://tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/what-a-racket-the-wilson-prostaff-circa-1983/?_r=0

 

[vsbabolat]

Actually according @Sanglier the Belgium Pro Staff was not produced until after the St. Vincent got up and running.
"As for the Donnay-contract PS85, according to Rich Janes (one of the men responsible for the PS85 design), they were made briefly for European distribution, AFTER the St.Vincent factory was already up and running. In other words, the very first PS85 were made in Chicago, alongside the Ultras, then came the St. Vincent, then the Belgian...."

There was no marketing done for the release of the Pro Staff until 1984. Nobody used the Pro Staff in 1983 Pro or amateur. The top of the line racquet for Wilson in 1983 was the Ultra 2.

Wilson now claims that the Pro Staff came out in 1980. At 1:27 in this video

 

[BounceHitBounceHit]

Onehandbh can you please e mail me at BounceHitBounceHit at g mail dot com?

 

[uk_skippy]

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/made-in-belgium-ps85.357458/

"Circa (from Latin, meaning "around, about"), usually abbreviated c., ca or ca. (also circ. or cca.), means "approximately"

 

[BreakPoint]

There was no marketing done for the release of the Pro Staff until 1984. Nobody used the Pro Staff in 1983 Pro or amateur. The top of the line racquet for Wilson in 1983 was the Ultra 2.
Wilson now claims that the Pro Staff came out in 1980. At 1:27 in this video

Actually, that video didn't say that the ProStaff was introduced in 1980, it said that the "First Graphite and Kevlar Racket in Tennis" was introduced in 1980, which is true since there were other racquets before the ProStaff that were made with graphite and Kevlar, such as the Ultra. They just showed a pic of the ProStaff because that's the racquet that is the most famous and most people would recognize.

"Following on the heels of the successful Ultra and Sting models, the ProStaff combined the basic racquet shape of the Sting with the Ultra's braided graphite/kevlar construction and Perimeter Weighting System (PWS). The ProStaff was introduced in 1983. Originally manufactured in Wilson's River Grove, IL factory, it had no bumper (a bumper was added in 1984). Shortly thereafter, manufacturing was moved to St. Vincent, The Grenadines."

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Reviews/W6085/ProstaffOrigins.html

• List for the 1980s contains many well accepted classic graphite old school rackets.
• ----------------------------------------------------------
• 1980 Kneissl White Star Lendl Pro (KWSLP) (Kevlar)
• 1980 Wilson Ultra Graphite
• 1981 Adidas GTX Pro T (GTXPT) (same as White Star Lendl Pro)
• 1982 Wilson Ultra 2 Midsize (WU2)
• 1982 Dunlop MAX 200G (Graf/McEnroe)
• 1982 Rossignol F200 and F250 (Willander)
• 1983 Wilson Pro Staff Midsize (PS85) (Kevlar)
• 1983 Snauwaert Ergonom
• 1984 Donnay Pro Cynetic 1 (Arias)
• 1984 Puma G. Villas
• 1984 Head TX Edge

http://www.woodtennis.com/groat.htm#GROATs1980s

 

[vsbabolat]

Hahahaha. Nice try! The Ultra had no Kevlar! The Original Ultra was braided graphite with PWS.

Wilson clearly says in that video the Wilson Pro Staff was the first braided graphite and Kevlar racquet in 1980. The Pro Staff was the first braided graphite and kevlar when it was introduced in 1984. Wilson made several other mistakes in that video too. Such as the Baiardo was not launched in 2007 but in 2009.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/wilson-tennis/baiardo-launch/68764428945

In 1983 there was NO advertisements in World Tennis and Tennis Magazine for the Pro Staff. In 1983 there was no tennis pro shop or store that had the Pro Staff for sale. No professional or recreational tennis player played with the Pro Staff in 1983.
In 1984 you had the launch of the Wilson Pro Staff with advertisements, reviews, and listings in mail order houses of the Pro Staff.

PS That list has a lot of mistakes in it. The Donnay Pro Cynetic 1 came out in 1986. Wilander never used the F250 and that came out in 1984. The Puma G.Vilas came out in 1985, the Adidas GTX Pro-T came out in 1986. Now the Adidas GTX Pro came out in 1981. All of those racquets with exception of the Donnay Pro Cynetic 1 are unidirectional Graphite racquets.


Try to stay focused just on the Pro Staff. That's what we are talking about. You love to muddy the waters.

 

[SpinToWin]

Break Point… The bigot who never reaches his breaking point.

 

[BreakPoint]

Break Point… The bigot who never reaches his breaking point.

"bigot"? Are you serious?

Zero evidence of that - EVER.

However, I'm often a victim of bigotry.

 

[SpinToWin]

"bigot"? Are you serious?

Zero evidence of that - EVER.

However, I'm often a victim of bigotry.

QED

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[BreakPoint]

Wilson clearly says in that video the Wilson Pro Staff was the first braided graphite and Kevlar racquet in 1980.

All I know is that Wilson 100 video that you posted CLEARLY DID NOT state that "The ProStaff was the first braided graphite and Kevlar racquet in 1980". It CLEARLY DID state in writing in the video at 1:27 that the "First Graphite and Kevlar Racket in Tennis" was introduced in 1980. No specific text stating the ProStaff whatsoever and no mention of "braided". They only showed a pic of the ProStaff as representative of a graphite and Kevlar racquet, which makes sense since today it's the most recognizable graphite/Kevlar racquet of that time.

BTW, was the Kneissl White Star Lendl Pro actually the "first graphite and Kevlar racquet in tennis in 1980"? If so, then maybe Wilson was talking about Kneissl and not themselves? LOL

 

[BreakPoint]

QED

Thanks for proving my point.

Thanks for adding so much to this discussion.

Apparently, you love discussing me more than discussing tennis racquets.

 

[vsbabolat]

All I know is that Wilson 100 video that you posted CLEARLY DID NOT state that "The ProStaff was the first braided graphite and Kevlar racquet in 1980". It CLEARLY DID state in writing in the video at 1:27 that the "First Graphite and Kevlar Racket in Tennis" was introduced in 1980. No specific text stating the ProStaff whatsoever and no mention of "braided". They only showed a pic of the ProStaff as representative of a graphite and Kevlar racquet, which makes sense since today it's the most recognizable graphite/Kevlar racquet of that time.

BTW, was the Kneissl White Star Lendl Pro actually the "first graphite and Kevlar racquet in tennis in 1980"? If so, then maybe Wilson was talking about Kneissl and not themselves? LOL

You choose to see what you want to see then. It clearly states "first graphite and kevlar racket in tennis" with a photo of the Pro Staff and Pro Staff spelled out in the video meaning that the Pro Staff by Wilson was the first graphite and Kevlar racquet. Wilson was giving a history of Wilson's innovation in tennis and what they brought to the market.

I guess Wilson is not saying that they had the first metal racket with the T2000 either.

Its so simple.

The Kneissl White Star Lendl Pro was graphite and kevlar. Lendl never used that frame. The White Star Pro that Lendl actually used came out in 1980 and was Graphite/Fiberglass.

 

[Aretium]

Thanks for adding so much to this discussion.

Apparently, you love discussing me more than discussing tennis racquets.

NO knowledge, is 10000 times better than QUASI knowledge.

 

[BreakPoint]

You choose to see what you want to see then. It clearly states "first graphite and kevlar racket in tennis" with a photo of the Pro Staff and Pro Staff spelled out in the video meaning that the Pro Staff by Wilson was the first graphite and Kevlar racquet. Wilson was giving a history of Wilson's innovation in tennis and what they brought to the market.

The Kneissl White Star Lendl Pro was graphite and kevlar. Lendl never used that frame. The White Star Pro that Lendl actually used came out in 1980 and was Graphite/Fiberglass.

It still doesn't specifically state: "The ProStaff was the First Graphite and Kevlar Racquet in Tennis in 1980". For other racquets, they make the name of the racquet much more clear, but not with the ProStaff. For example, it clearly states by name "Jack Kramer - Best Selling Racket in Tennis History".

A lot more people remember the ProStaff than the other racquets around that time period, so why not use a pic of one and put "Pro Staff" in the background that hardly anyone could see, especially as that page flashes by in a second? Wilson is touting their innovation and their best selling products as a result of that innovation, so they only wanted to use iconic racquets which people would immediately recognize and say -"Yup, that was a great racquet, I remember it well.". You don't want to use some racquet that only a minority of racquet geeks would remember. This is an all-purpose video for the general public.

OK, let's say that you're right. Then you've just proved to us that the ProStaff came out in 1980 and not 1984. LOL

 

[vsbabolat]

You are in denial! The name Pro Staff could not be more clear. I took a screen shot of that video as the name Pro Staff went across the screen. It could not be more clear that Wilson is saying that the Wilson Pro Staff came out in 1980. What other racquet did Wilson develop before the Pro Staff that was graphite and kevlar?
What I proved is that Wilson made a mistake as to when the Pro Staff came out. The Pro Staff was released in 1984......

 

[BreakPoint]

You are in denial! The name Pro Staff could not be more clear. I took a screen shot of that video as the name Pro Staff went across the screen. It could not be more clear that Wilson is saying that the Wilson Pro Staff came out in 1980. What other racquet did Wilson develop before the Pro Staff that was graphite and kevlar?
What I proved is that Wilson made a mistake as to when the Pro Staff came out. The Pro Staff was released in 1984......

That video was probably made by some 20-year-old intern who was born in the '90's. LOL The guy who said the ProStaff came out in 1983 was the actual engineer at Wilson who was responsible for the development and production of the ProStaff in 1983. I'd say he's got a lot more credibility.

 

[vsbabolat]

I don't know who made that video at Wilson. However it had to be signed off on by an executive. That engineer was talking about the development of the Pro Staff. Not the release.

 

[movdqa]

Engineers start work on products before they come out. Sometimes years ahead of launch. Engineers typically use precise terms with regard to development, production and product launch. Perhaps you should provide us with the exact quote from this engineer.

 

[movdqa]

Looks like BreakPoint got his information from Wikipedia. The date of 1983 has [citation needed] for a reference which means that someone edited the page and put in 1983 but there's no source for this. Some of the informational references cite Tennis Warehouse. There's one citation from one of TW's competitors. The article is very, very light on citations overall.

 

[BreakPoint]

I don't know who made that video at Wilson. However it had to be signed off on by an executive. That engineer was talking about the development of the Pro Staff. Not the release.

"The ProStaff was introduced in 1983. Originally manufactured in Wilson's River Grove, IL factory, it had no bumper (a bumper was added in 1984). Shortly thereafter, manufacturing was moved to St. Vincent, The Grenadines. Ken Sherman was one of 4 Wilson engineers involved in the design and development of the ProStaff and was lead engineer at the fabled St. Vincent factory for 4 years, working on ProStaffs and original Profile racquets, among others."

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Reviews/W6085/ProstaffOrigins.html

"introduced" is not development.

There's also this:

"At the time, St. Vincent was already manufacturing clothing, gloves, etc. There was a factory shell that had been originally built to produce Maidenform bras but Wilson ended up buying it in 1982 to finish and assemble raw frames produced in our Chicago factory. In 1983, Wilson changed it into a manufacturing house and it produced a variety of models, including the ProStaff Original."

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Reviews/W6085/StVincent.html

Don't forget that the ProStaff 85 was produced in Chicago for a while before production moved to St. Vincent.

 

[BreakPoint]

Engineers start work on products before they come out. Sometimes years ahead of launch. Engineers typically use precise terms with regard to development, production and product launch. Perhaps you should provide us with the exact quote from this engineer.

If you've read this entire thread, you would have seen numerous quotes and links already.

 

[sureshs]

This was reported years ago by a poster who saw it in Japan

 

[BreakPoint]

Looks like BreakPoint got his information from Wikipedia. The date of 1983 has [citation needed] for a reference which means that someone edited the page and put in 1983 but there's no source for this. Some of the informational references cite Tennis Warehouse. There's one citation from one of TW's competitors. The article is very, very light on citations overall.

Nope. See above (and throughout this thread).

 

[movdqa]

It's amazing how hard it can be to nail down history from a relatively recent event:

"Racket manufacturers frequently overhaul their product lines with new technologies like “piezoelectric damping circuitry” (whatever that means). But there is also a lot of demand among weekend players like myself for the relics of yesteryear. Case in point: Wilson’s venerable ProStaff 6.0-85 from 1983, a serious stick with a cultlike following, which now fetches more than $350 on **** and was once used by Pete Sampras, Jim Courier and Chris Evert. (Even Roger Federer plays with a heavily modified version.)"

http://tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/what-a-racket-the-wilson-prostaff-circa-1983/

"The Pro Staff Original was the brainchild of Wilson marketing back in 1982. Following on the heels of the successful Ultra and Sting models, the Pro Staff combined the basic racquet shape of the Sting with the Ultra's braided graphite/kevlar construction and Perimeter Weighting System (PWS). The Pro Staff was introduced in 1983. Originally manufactured in Wilson's River Grove (Chicago), IL factory, it had no bumper (a bumper was added in 1984). Shortly thereafter, manufacturing was moved to St. Vincent, The Grenadines. Ken Sherman was one of 4 Wilson engineers involved in the design and development of the Pro Staff and was lead engineer at the fabled St. Vincent factory for 4 years, working on Pro Staffs and original Profile racquets, among others"

http://thetenniswiki.com/Wilson+Pro+Staff+6.0+Original+Mid+85

I have not been able to find citations in any articles that I've seen though.

 

[movdqa]

Nope. See above (and throughout this thread).

Do you have a picture of a pro using it in 1983?

 

[vsbabolat]

Do you have a picture of a pro using it in 1983?

In 1983 there was NO advertisements in World Tennis and Tennis Magazine for the Pro Staff. In 1983 there was no tennis pro shop or store that had the Pro Staff for sale. No professional or recreational tennis player played with the Pro Staff in 1983.
In 1984 you had the launch of the Wilson Pro Staff with advertisements, reviews, and listings in mail order houses of the Pro Staff.

 

[movdqa]

The only way I can reconcile the articles that I've seen [that don't have citations] with no outside indications of a launch would be that Wilson started production in 1983 for a 1984 launch. This is common in manufacturing where the manufacturing company ramps up production to build inventory for the launch. There wasn't a public internet back then so the general public didn't get rumors or sneak peaks at the new stuff.

 

[vsbabolat]

The only way I can reconcile the articles that I've seen [that don't have citations] with no outside indications of a launch would be that Wilson started production in 1983 for a 1984 launch. This is common in manufacturing where the manufacturing company ramps up production to build inventory for the launch. There wasn't a public internet back then so the general public didn't get rumors or sneak peaks at the new stuff.

Exactly! There is no doubt that production for the Pro Staff started in 1983. However they needed to make 10's of thousands of racquets for the initial launch. The engineer clearly stated that the initial production started in 1983 its the leap of the author that said it was 1983 that the Pro Staff was launched when it was not. The initial release for retail sale of the Pro Staff line of Midsize, Largehead, and 125 was 1984. When the Pro Staff was released in 1984 Wilson marketed the racquet around Jimmy Connors.

Look at the whats happening now. The HEAD Graphene XT Prestige went into production in 2015. They have to make thousands of racquets get all the marketing together and then plan the launch. The Launch for the new Graphene XT Prestige is Jan 2016. Its really very simple. That quote from BP is from the author of the article and not the engineer.

 

[BreakPoint]

Do you have a picture of a pro using it in 1983?

I don't see how that would be definitive proof. The year a racquet is introduced and the year in which a pro decides to switch to it do not have to coincide. Case in point - Sampras did not switch to the PS 85 until about 5 years after it was introduced.

 

[vsbabolat]

I found the proof that the Wilson Pro Staff line was released in 1984. In the March 1984 issue of the Stringer's Assistant (USRSA Magazine) they gave an update of all the new releases for 1984.

WILSON has introduced a new series of high-performance frames, the Pro-Staff line - 50% Kevlar/50% braided graphite racquets designed for the intermediate/advanced player. Each frame in the line is individually balanced and weighed, and labelled accordingly for the consumer. The frames come complete with thermal bag and set of Wil- son string; also with a Fairway grip.

Wilson's Largehead (110 sq. in.) requires 16 M's & 19 X's; M's skip 7H and 9H, also 7T and 9T. No shared holes. 70-75 lbs. rec. tension. (36' string length required.)

The Pro-Staff Mid (85 sq. in) re- quires 16 M's and ls-i's; M's skip 7H & 9H, also 7T & 9T. No shared holes. 65-70 lbs. rec. tension.



Pro Staff Superlargehead (Pro Staff 125) is 125 sq. inches of play- ing surface and rec. tension is 75-80 lbs. 18 M's & 22 X's; M's skip 8H &

10H, also skip 8T & 10T. No shared holes. (This stringing pattern leaves a 'gap' between the 1st & 2nd cross at the head and throat, which Wilson says is intentional.) The Superlarge- head also requires 42' feet of string, and Wilson recommends their Graphite synthetic string which comes in both 36 foot and 42 foot coils. (See info on under string on page 9.)