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Laurie
Guest
The Ladies? You decide..
http://burnstennis.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/greatest-women-hard-court-players-of.html
http://burnstennis.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/greatest-women-hard-court-players-of.html
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NadalAgassi
Guest
1. Graf
2. Serena
3. Evert
4. Navratilova
5. Seles
2. Serena
3. Evert
4. Navratilova
5. Seles
Lionheart392
Professional
I voted for Steffi Graf. She has the highest winning percentage on hardcourts in history, and a record 9 majors on hardcourts. I know she had more opportunity to play on the surface than players in previous generations but watching her play I believe she is the greatest.
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monfed
Guest
Mirka Vavrinec!
J/K Why not Hingis?
J/K Why not Hingis?
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Steffi Graf is just so amazing. She excels on any surface, be it grass, hardcourt or clay. She is probably the only player who is capable to be selected in the top 3 all time great lists on any surface in the open era. This reflects by her unique records as the only player who has won all 4 majors each for at least 4 times. And the only player to be able to defend all 4 majors titles.
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suwanee4712
Professional
I voted for Steffi. Her hard court record is fantastic. She does have an advantage over her predacessors in that the tour evolved into one dominated by this surface. But I still think she'd be the best on this surface.
FedericRoma83
Rookie
My vote goes to Monica Seles. I don't like her, but I'm sure that if it wasn't for the crazy stabber, she probably would have win no less than nine consecutive hard court Majors. Simply outstanding.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
If you're going by peak level of play, then Monica Seles gets my vote.
If it wasn't for the family troubles and malicious media attack on Graf and her family, Graf very likely would keep her dominance going and have much better performance during early 90's.
When Seles was n. 1, she faced a slumping and troubled Graf due to family crisis and media attack, not an in form Graf as in 87 to early 90 before the family crisis. Still a seriously slumping Graf has a winning record against a n.1 ranking Seles. When Seles was top player she still cannot dominate a slumping Graf and has a losing h2h against an out of form Graf.
But when Graf is in her prime, she can dominate Seles.
When both are past their prime, a seriously injured Graf still has an upper hand against relatively healthier and younger Seles(98-99).
It is obviously who is the better player. No matter in her prime or past her prime, Graf always leads Seles in their h2h.
Without the family crisis and malicious media attack, Graf probably would have won the 90, 91 and 92 US Open. She also probably would win at least 1 more Aus had not been the family troubles.
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Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Joe Pike is back!!!
Peak Seles would still be toyed by peak Hingis on court.
Seles game is very vulnerable to a smart player like Hingis who can read her pattern well and has variety and brain to move Seles around or take Seles out of her familiar zone.
Seles game would also be dwarfed by the Williams as they are similar players but the sisters have more power and more athleticism.
Not to mention a peak Seles cannot even defeat a deeply slumping and troubled Graf on fast hard court.
Peak Seles has one of the best level of play on slow hard court, but peak Serena and Hingis would still beat peak Seles on slow hard court.
And there are many better fast hard court players than Seles.
So peak Seles is far from being the best on hard court.
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Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
You are Joe Pike.
suwanee4712
Professional
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Winners or Errors
Legend
Why so little respect for Navratilova? Even as an old lady, she was able to challenge all the other players on the list she actually played against.
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NadalAgassi
Guest
Plus with much more firewpower (even taking into acount equipment changes) than Evert, and a much stronger serve.
Since there are questions about how she would do on rebound ace. The hard court GOAT should be someone who dominates on all speeds and types.
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NadalAgassi
Guest
I doubt he is TBH. Because of this part: Seles game would also be dwarfed by the Williams as they are similar players but the sisters have more power and more athleticism. Joe Pike hated the Williams nearly as much as Seles, and would not have praised them so distinctly even in an effort to put Seles down.
suwanee4712
Professional
I suspect the slower hard court like rebound ace may have hurt Martina a little. But I have always held the opinion that an attacking player with as complete a game as Martina would win out in an individual match with Graf or Evert all else being equal. Just not sure if her record would win out over time. She is definitely the grass and indoor GOAT IMHO.
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NadalAgassi
Guest
Rebound ace does not favor the attacking player all things being equal. Sampras won the most on it of any attacking player since it was put in, and he might have been lucky to win 2 titles in years Agassi didnt even play, as he was 0-2 vs Agassi there, despite that he owned Agassi at the U.S open and most hard court venues. Sampras also played from the back court much more than Martina did. Edberg, a more all out attacker in the vein of Martina (albeit not the male GOAT or as complete a player as Martina) made several finals and semis there but was repeatedly taken down by baseline experts Lendl and Courier, whom he could handle comfortably at the U.S Open. Serena is a huge power player but definitely not a true attacker as far as coming forward much.
Of course to some extent we will never know for certain on Martina, and it is unfair to brush her with the sterotypes set by others. However the minor evidence that does exist is not in her favor either. Martina played a 34 year old Evert in the 88 Australian Open and lost 7-5, 6-2. She lost next year to Helena Sukova. She never got far enough to even play Graf on the surface ever. Seles, and possibly Hingis and Serena are all even better than Graf or Evert on rebound ace btw.
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Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
But, he's got like 4 posts in a row, in different threads, all with remote details about Graf and her family relationships, etc. etc. Only Joe Pike would know those kinds of details, and bother to post them, as if anyone cared about that stuff.
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NadalAgassi
Guest
True, maybe it is him, and his fake Williams love is just an attempt to hide himself.
Is this your only strategy when someone rightly points out a hard-accepting and embarrassing truth about your idol?
Seles lost badly to a pre-prime Hingis right after she has just won the Australian Open in 1996. In that match, power hitter Seles was under little teenager Hingis' control. You can tell young Hingis can read Seles' game very well. Very frustrating experience to Seles.
suwanee4712
Professional
I probably should have made two paragraphs. Because rebound ace is so slow I think that would hurt Martina more times than not.
However, in general, I feel that Martina's left handed serve and net game would serve her well vs. the other hard court greats on most cement surfaces.
However, in general, I feel that Martina's left handed serve and net game would serve her well vs. the other hard court greats on most cement surfaces.
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NadalAgassi
Guest
Yeah I agree. At the U. S Open she is 4-1 vs Graf despite that all matches were when Martina was 28 or older and when Steffi was already 16 or older. She is 3-0 vs Chris Evert at the U.S Open once it moved to decoturf too.
FedericRoma83
Rookie
As I said, I don't like Seles because she introduced screams in female tennis (ah, these good old Evert-Navratilova matches without howlings and shouts!)... but I'm not dumb and I can't deny what I saw.
She was one of the most dominant players ever. I'm pretty sure that in 1994 she would have completed the Grand Slam (Graff did poorly at Wimbledon that year).
FedericRoma83
Rookie
We know one thing for sure: she went to straight Grand Slam hard court finals soon after her return (nearly three years out of the tour).
Lionheart392
Professional
Seles is a contender for the rebound ace GOAT, but hardcourt as a whole she is not. 2 US Opens are not enough. And while her age let her get away with a lot, in her later years her inferior athleticism would have caught up with her, especially on faster surfaces with or without the stabbing (as it did). Add in Seles's major issues with Hingis, Davenport, V Williams and S Williams; these players were already in her way when she was in her early 20s.
Graf probably has the best credentials. I liked Monica Seles more than Steffi, but Steffi was a great champion with a lot of pride too. If not for the crazy b*stard stabbing her, Seles was on course to win many more GS events in her prime. That doesn't mean to say she would have ended up with more Majors than Steffi. My best guess is around 15 for Monica and around 17 or 18 for Graf, so still around the totals of Evert and Navratilova. Steffi may have turned the rivalry more to her liking, she did have her own troubles at one stage, she was a superior athlete to Monica in my opinion and many matches between Seles and Graf went to three hard-fought sets.
Serena is, of course, another fighter who loves the hard courts and especially the surfaces in Australia. Chris and Martina were champions full stop.
Serena is, of course, another fighter who loves the hard courts and especially the surfaces in Australia. Chris and Martina were champions full stop.
Your logic is faulty and your definition of 'love' is problematic.
To say the Williams are more powerful and athletic than Seles as players does not need to mean 'love' the Williams at all. It's just a statement of fact, not an expression of emotion.
Just as I would without hesitation to admit Goran has one of the best serves in history although I don't like him. I have to say Serena is more powerful with better athleticism than Seles even though I don't like her either. Serena accuses criticisms on her abuse to the line judge as sex discrimination. Her accusation shows she does not really regret what she has done on court but blames and labels all those criticisms as discrimination against her. Very appalling behaviour.
I do respect Venus' sportsmanship and personality though. Much better than her sister.
Anyway both of them are more powerful and more athletic than Seles.
If Seles was able to beat Graf during early 90s, I don't see why she wouldn't fair the same(if not better) against Serena, who is an inferior to Graf's movement and her fh isn't close to Graf's league. Saying Serena will win just because she is so much more powerful than Seles doesn't mean a thing. There are plenty of stronger player than Graf, Martina and Evert but no one dominate like they did. Even Federer, he's not known for the most powerful player on the tour but yet he dominates like no one else.
Lionheart392
Professional
The only hard court that Seles beat Graf on was rebound ace, the slowest of the lot. Graf's slice backhand didn't stay as low on that surface which enabled Seles to attack it more. That's most likely why Seles only ever beat Graf on clay and rebound ace. Although Serena is not as good a player as Graf, she was a tougher match for Seles because she hits hard off both sides, so Seles on rebound ace wouldn't have anything to really attack.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
It's Joe Pike!
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
2 U.S. Opens is more than enough if you are looking at "level of play" and you acknowledge that Seles career was cut short when she was 19 years old.
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NadalAgassi
Guest
Not that your logic ever makes sense, but Serena's backhand is a very powerful shot and not attackable like Graf's is, and Serena is a much better returner than Graf who actually struggled returning Seles's serve, especialy in their matches from 93 onwards. Seles struggles most with players who can match her power from all parts of the court and are superior athletes. Graf is the latter, but not the former, as with her defensive backhand Seles overall has more power from the baseline, and when Graf isnt near the returner of serve (esepcialy vs strong serves) as Seles or Serena.
Seles also never beat Graf on anything on than rebound ace or clay head to head. Serena is much better than Graf on rebound ace or very slow Australian Open hard courts, as proven by that she has already surpassed Graf's Australian Open record, so Seles would have a much harder time beating Serena there than Graf. Compare Graf's best on that surface to the Serena of the 2007 Australian Open final vs Sharapova for instance, LOL1 As for clay, well no questions both peak Graf and peak Seles is better than Serena there, it is like comparing Seles to peak Graf or peak Serena on grass, either way it is a joke.
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Lionheart392
Professional
Well, my point was that I don't think Seles was going to win the enormous amount of US Open titles that many automatically hand to her. Therefore with just 2 US Opens I really don't think she can be the hard court GOAT, given that Graf has 5 of them, plus the same amount of Australians.
Lionheart392
Professional
I wouldn't say Serena is 'much better' than Graf on rebound ace. Rebound ace is probably Graf's weakest surface (although she was still solid on it) but she still won 4 Australian Open titles. And look at the 1994 Australian final to see what she could do on it. I would say Graf is better than Serena on rebound ace based on watching them both play but I respect your opposing view. I just don't think you can say she was 'much' better.
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NadalAgassi
Guest
Graf really had no competition on rebound ace before and after Seles. Sabatini and Sanchez were both weak on rebound ace, it was their worst surface. Sanchez also didnt play the event until 1991. Navratilova was rather weak on rebound ace. Chris Evert was 34 by the time the tournament was moved there. From 1988-1990 during her 3 title run, Graf's biggest and most consistent competition at the event came from Helena Sukova, so what does that tell you. Seles didnt play it for the first time until 1991, but won the first 4 she entered. When the fields were stronger at the event like 1991, 1993, 1997, 1999, and with better rebound ace players like Seles and Hingis dominating, Graf really struggled. I think the Graf of the 94 Australian Open would have beaten anyone, including Seles if she werent stabbed, but IMO her level of tennis at that event was an anamoly. She didnt play close to that level any other time on the surface, even when she was playing well and winning.
Maybe much better is a strong word. However IMO Serena, Hingis, and Seles > Graf on rebound ace or Australian hard courts in general.
Maybe much better is a strong word. However IMO Serena, Hingis, and Seles > Graf on rebound ace or Australian hard courts in general.
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Lionheart392
Professional
Sharapova? She is in no way a contender. Clijsters should be on the list before her.
reversef
Hall of Fame
I can't see someone having rebound ace as their worst surface. You can have clay or grass or carpet. Hard court, yes. But for players whose clay is the best surface but who are able to adapt to other surfaces like grass, carpet or fast hard courts (Sabatini, Sanchez), rebound ace can't be such a problem. Maybe they didn't have their best results at the AO. But that's a different thing and there may have been other reasons (bad luck, bad preparation, bad timing or whatever you want). But I don't see why those 2 players would have had rebound ace as their "worst surface".
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NadalAgassi
Guest
Graf had a slice backhand which was most ineffective on rebound ace. Clay has a high bounce but the ball could still die if she hit it the right way, obviously on grass it skidded through, and faster hard court or carpet are fast enough for it to be effective. On a slow and very court it just sat up to be clobbered. The courts were all stickier and made her prone to injury on the surface.
Clay isnt that similar to rebound ace. Imagine Agassi winning 4 straight French Opens he played, Venus beating Justine Henin in one of her best years 6-3, 6-3 in a Roland Garros semifinal, Sampras crushing Moya in a Roland Garros final, Serena winning 5 Roland Garros titles.
Clay isnt that similar to rebound ace. Imagine Agassi winning 4 straight French Opens he played, Venus beating Justine Henin in one of her best years 6-3, 6-3 in a Roland Garros semifinal, Sampras crushing Moya in a Roland Garros final, Serena winning 5 Roland Garros titles.
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NadalAgassi
Guest
Maybe they just werent ready to go that early in the year. Sanchez's record there isnt too bad come to think of it, but Sabatini's pretty much sucks. 4 semifinals but blown out badly in each one. Winning 3 games off Graf in 89, 3 games off Seles in 93, 3 games off Sanchez in 94, and even just 5 games off Mary Joe Fernandez in 92.
kiki
Banned
Oh¡¡¡ now TT biggest entertainment is looking where Joe Pike hides?
reversef
Hall of Fame
I know, but I think it had more to do with the circumstances than the surface itself. There is no reason for Sabatini to have more problems on it than on any other surface.
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