The icy relationship between Sinner and Djokovic

Rosstour said:
Yes but we don't know the rest. And was it blood or urine? They didn't take hair which is more exhaustive
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In what way though did Sinner improve his performance in a way that steroids would help? Steroids dont help get the ball in more. He actually doesnt hit as hard now as he did 3 years ago. I havent seen any evidence his stamina has improved as he still seems suspect in longer matches.
I tend to raise an eyebrow at players who have struggled physically at a younger age but get stronger when a lot older, which i think is how most people view it as well.
 
messiahrobins said:
In what way though did Sinner improve his performance in a way that steroids would help? Steroids dont help get the ball in more. He actually doesnt hit as hard now as he did 3 years ago. I havent seen any evidence his stamina has improved as he still seems suspect in longer matches.
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Are you kidding?

He went from a dude who mugged up big matches to a total machine.

Suspect in longer matches? Show me. The AO24 Final would like a word--two sets down to Med and comes stürming back to win the title.

Then USO, he drops two sets on the way to the title.

C'mon man. And you show about the same level of understanding of doping as @Subway Tennis. It's not about being a bodybuilder although Sinner has gotten notably bigger. It's primarily about stamina and recovery
 
Rosstour said:
Are you kidding?

He went from a dude who mugged up big matches to a total machine.

Suspect in longer matches? Show me. The AO24 Final would like a word--two sets down to Med and comes stürming back to win the title.

Then USO, he drops two sets on the way to the title.

C'mon man. And you show about the same level of understanding of doping as @Subway Tennis. It's not about being a bodybuilder although Sinner has gotten notably bigger. It's primarily about stamina and recovery
Click to expand...
I dont see evidence his stamina has increased. Lat year Medvedev was simply cooked which was always going to happen given his run.
Steroids dont assist mental strength.
Trust me if Alcaraz (as i am pretty confident) wins this AO nobody will be talking about Sinner anyway. I will be interested to see if accusations start being made about Alcaraz. If they do then we know where they are coming from dont we.
 
I think there is no love lost between them. And then you have the traitor Uli who celebrated in Novaks face at Shanghai after their years together. Yea this whole thing about Sinner has rubbed me the wrong way lately. Hopefully Djokovic, albeit being close to his 40s and hasn't played up to par tennis since august can find his last energy to make a last stand.
 
messiahrobins said:
I dont see evidence his stamina has increased. Lat year Medvedev was simply cooked which was always going to happen given his run.
Steroids dont assist mental strength.
Trust me if Alcaraz (as i am pretty confident) wins this AO nobody will be talking about Sinner anyway. I will be interested to see if accusations start being made about Alcaraz. If they do then we know where they are coming from dont we.
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Alcaraz is already suspect sir, he made a huge transformation and his arm looks like Popeye's

Even my fave Musetti looks like a werewolf compared to two years ago

Stop saying "steroids" as there is a lot more at play here than just anabolic steroids. Blood doping is a crucial leg of the modern doping chair. And yes, that will help a player mentally if they know they have a physical advantage.

This is kind of a silly argument. If the doping didn't have a benefit, he wouldn't have done it. And his results show that.
 
Rosstour said:
Alcaraz is already suspect sir, he made a huge transformation and his arm looks like Popeye's

Even my fave Musetti looks like a werewolf compared to two years ago

Stop saying "steroids" as there is a lot more at play here than just anabolic steroids. Blood doping is a crucial leg of the modern doping chair. And yes, that will help a player mentally if they know they have a physical advantage.

This is kind of a silly argument. If the doping didn't have a benefit, he wouldn't have done it. And his results show that.
Click to expand...
You have no proof of any of the above. You are just speculating.
You need to understand the commercial reality of sport and life. Sinner isnt going to get banned. Neither is any top player on the mens side. The money in tennis TV wise is on the mens side.
 
Is the Sinner case the end of strict liability?

The principle – effectively an “absolute liability” requirement – mandates athletes are ultimately accountable for any banned substance found in their bodies, regardless of intent. WADA’s appeal in Sinner’s case speaks to this – it is directly questioning the “no fault or negligence” finding by the tennis tribunal that cleared him of wrongdoing.

Is there a political geography operating here?

And Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva is currently serving a four-year ban after testing positive for the same banned substance as Swiatek. The vastly different outcomes in these two cases are difficult for everyday sports fans to comprehend.

theconversation.com

Tennis is facing an existential crisis over doping. How will it respond?

Two stars have tested positive for banned substances in the past year, raising questions about the fairness, transparency and accountability of the testing system.
theconversation.com theconversation.com
 
messiahrobins said:
You have no proof of any of the above. You are just speculating.
You need to understand the commercial reality of sport and life. Sinner isnt going to get banned. Neither is any top player on the mens side. The money in tennis TV wise is on the mens side.
Click to expand...

And you're behind the times sir

Yes, the "reality" is what you say. The top guys are protected.

So, something went VERY wrong for Sinner to be busted. This is a PR nightmare for the tour and the sponsors to say nothing of Sinner and his team.

This is why I say Djokovic tipped the authorities off. Only a player with considerable weight can rock the boat this much.

What you really seem to be saying is "I don't care that Sinner doped"

And that's your right
 
messiahrobins said:
If they didnt i doubt some of Djokovics team from the past would be with Sinner tbh
Click to expand...

Really? You think they really care about these things? They are italian and had opportunity to join the ship of someone who happens to be the very best next thing who also happens to be italian. pluss high salaries. It's a dream job for them, just like it was when they were with Novak.

Past relations with players doesn't get taken into account at all in these decisions. That's thrown out the window. Just check Uli in their match in Shanghai and how he fist pumped, clapped at Sinner winning points right infront of Novak. They don't care.
 
RF-18 said:
Really? You think they really care about these things? They are italian and had opportunity to join the ship of someone who happens to be the very best next thing who also happens to be italian. pluss high salaries. It's a dream job for them, just like it was when they were with Novak.

Past relations with players doesn't get taken into account at all in these decisions. That's thrown out the window. Just check Uli in their match in Shanghai and how he fist pumped, clapped at Sinner winning points right infront of Novak. They don't care.
Click to expand...

And furthermore in some cases there is bad blood. I'm guessing Badio isn't a big Djokofan now after being cut loose. NDA prevents him from speaking his mind so he fist-pumps in Djoko's face instead.

Outsiders think that these pros are just Spartans who don't get into personal stuff. No no no. If anything it's the opposite. The cattiness and pettiness at the highest levels is...at the highest levels
 
RF-18 said:
Really? You think they really care about these things? They are italian and had opportunity to join the ship of someone who happens to be the very best next thing who also happens to be italian. pluss high salaries. It's a dream job for them, just like it was when they were with Novak.

Past relations with players doesn't get taken into account at all in these decisions. That's thrown out the window. Just check Uli in their match in Shanghai and how he fist pumped, clapped at Sinner winning points right infront of Novak. They don't care.
Click to expand...
Yes i generally think you are right, but Novak is a bit different to most in that to me he has always seemed to have a very close bond with his coaches, a sort of family feel and values loyalty so have always assumed one of the first thing he looks for is coaches and staff who share those characteristics.
My other issues is Novak surely cannot see Alcaraz and Sinner as real rivals, the age gap is just too big surely. Unless Sinner has said something disrespetful behind the scenes, i just cannot see why there would be bad blood. Id have thought Djokovic Nadal and Federer would be desperate for Sinner and Alcaraz to keep tennis on the map after everything they gave to the sport.
 
Rosstour said:
And you're behind the times sir

Yes, the "reality" is what you say. The top guys are protected.

So, something went VERY wrong for Sinner to be busted. This is a PR nightmare for the tour and the sponsors to say nothing of Sinner and his team.

This is why I say Djokovic tipped the authorities off. Only a player with considerable weight can rock the boat this much.

What you really seem to be saying is "I don't care that Sinner doped"

And that's your right
Click to expand...
I dont think Sinner intentionally doped as there was not enough to affect his performance.
I dont see why Djokovic would go for Sinner, surely Alcaraz is the bigger threat to his records? Djokovic also is very close to the Italian tennis federation as are all the top serbian players so i just struggle to see what the benefit would be unless there is a bigger picture which we have discussed before.
 
messiahrobins said:
I dont think Sinner intentionally doped as there was not enough to affect his performance.
I dont see why Djokovic would go for Sinner, surely Alcaraz is the bigger threat to his records? Djokovic also is very close to the Italian tennis federation as are all the top serbian players so i just struggle to see what the benefit would be unless there is a bigger picture which we have discussed before.
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You're thinking too small

1. You're assuming that the only thing in Sinner's system was a trace amount of clostebol. You don't know that.

2. You don't see why Djoko would go for Sinner? Really?

Opportunity. He can't touch Carlos. Carlos is surrounded by family and the Spanish Tennis Federation. You can't just hire these guys away like you can with Sinner's people. And Djokovic's closeness with Italian Tennis Federation would make it easier for him to set Sinner up.
 
Rosstour said:
You're thinking too small

1. You're assuming that the only thing in Sinner's system was a trace amount of clostebol. You don't know that.

2. You don't see why Djoko would go for Sinner? Really?

Opportunity. He can't touch Carlos. Carlos is surrounded by family and the Spanish Tennis Federation. You can't just hire these guys away like you can with Sinner's people. And Djokovic's closeness with Italian Tennis Federation would make it easier for him to set Sinner up.
Click to expand...
Ive heard Sinner's family is on very good terms with Meloni ,which if true would make going after him futile! The Italian Federation wont want to cross Meloni i can assure you of that.
So what else was in Sinner's blood stream?
 
So having Clostobel will make you paint the lines consistently and serve better ? Because i see that as the difference in his game before and now.

Sinner never had any stamina or endurance issues with long matches previously. If anything, he lost the 4th and 5th setter to Alcaraz and the 5th set to Medvedev last year.

This is just a witchhunt and media craving for news bytes to keep viewers engaged.
 
messiahrobins said:
Ive heard Sinner's family is on very good terms with Meloni ,which if true would make going after him futile! The Italian Federation wont want to cross Meloni i can assure you of that.
So what else was in Sinner's blood stream?
Click to expand...

We don't know what was in his bloodstream. The failed tests were urine tests.
 
And Meloni is doing the Mar-a-Lago cha-cha while the White House bankrolls WADA and demands action on Chinese swimmers, not Sinner and Swiatek.

It will starve WADA of funds until it complies.

messiahrobins said:
Ive heard Sinner's family is on very good terms with Meloni ,which if true would make going after him futile! The Italian Federation wont want to cross Meloni i can assure you of that.
So what else was in Sinner's blood stream?
Click to expand...
 
Bartelby said:
Is the Sinner case the end of strict liability?

The principle – effectively an “absolute liability” requirement – mandates athletes are ultimately accountable for any banned substance found in their bodies, regardless of intent. WADA’s appeal in Sinner’s case speaks to this – it is directly questioning the “no fault or negligence” finding by the tennis tribunal that cleared him of wrongdoing.

Is there a political geography operating here?

And Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva is currently serving a four-year ban after testing positive for the same banned substance as Swiatek. The vastly different outcomes in these two cases are difficult for everyday sports fans to comprehend.

theconversation.com

Tennis is facing an existential crisis over doping. How will it respond?

Two stars have tested positive for banned substances in the past year, raising questions about the fairness, transparency and accountability of the testing system.
theconversation.com theconversation.com
Click to expand...
I remember when we found out that they covered up Agassi being on crank all those years ago and thinking that there is no way that would happen in the 2010s with more transparency in modern tennis. Then 30+ years after Agassi’s troubles we found out they intended to try and do the same thing with Iga and Sinner.

Totally different cases, degrees of severity, and substances, and there wasn’t the same code of silence for the same amount of time, but the indication to me is that tennis admins wanted to sweep the whole thing under the rug the same way they did with Agassi. Not that much has changed in terms of how theu want to manage instances of drugs of any kind in the sport.
 
Rosstour said:
Alcaraz is already suspect sir, he made a huge transformation and his arm looks like Popeye's

Even my fave Musetti looks like a werewolf compared to two years ago

Stop saying "steroids" as there is a lot more at play here than just anabolic steroids. Blood doping is a crucial leg of the modern doping chair. And yes, that will help a player mentally if they know they have a physical advantage.

This is kind of a silly argument. If the doping didn't have a benefit, he wouldn't have done it. And his results show that.
Click to expand...
These players are superhumans. We all know some of them are getting a little bit of “help” along the way Ross.

But you need to be circumspect about aportioning credit to what compounds are capable of doing and making sure you give credit for how amazing these guys are in the first place :giggle:

Dont be afraid to cheer for Musetti either!
 
Subway Tennis said:
These players are superhumans. We all know some of them are getting a little bit of “help” along the way Ross.

But you need to be circumspect about aportioning credit to what compounds are capable of doing and making sure you give credit for how amazing these guys are in the first place :giggle:

Dont be afraid to cheer for Musetti either!
Click to expand...

If you're right on the bubble, chems can put you over the edge

If you're an aging great with superior technique and mental strength, but losing the ability to train hard every day and complete a major tournament without an injury, the chems can help you stay at the top.

They can't make a good player a great one, ask Marton Fucsovics. And that isn't what I'm arguing. Not saying Sinner would have been some bum if he never doped. He might have won Slams anyway, eventually
 
messiahrobins said:
Steroids dont assist mental strength.
Trust me if Alcaraz (as i am pretty confident) wins this AO nobody will be talking about Sinner anyway. I will be interested to see if accusations start being made about Alcaraz. If they do then we know where they are coming from dont we.
Click to expand...
I agree with a lot of what you have said here and take your point about steroids specifically.

The only thing I would add is that there is a lot of development in performance enhancement on the mental side of things and using substances where the goal is to work mainly in the mental department. Quite a few of these drugs have been recognised as PEDs deserving a ban and have been outlawed or require a TUE for use.

Not “mental strength” per se, and not steroidal, but drugs that aid in focus, decision-making in short spans of time etc etc. These can help quite a bit in technical sports requiring very short and critical moments of repetitive execution, or in field sport like football where a player might have a small but very specific and highly critical task that has to done perfectly in a very short span of time.

There are also quite a few of these compounds that are not yet on the banned list (and may even remain off it?)

Brain-mapping, which the Bryan Brothers used to use, is another method-based mental performance enhancement that may eventually end up on the list, along with some nootropic substances that can aid mental areas that are not yet banned.

I’m normally a pretty Pro-performance enhancement person but some of these drugs are probably the ones that make a banned list and enforcement still a necessity. Healthy people who dont “need” focus-related drigs could create some scary longterm dependencies taking them if they dont need to. That’s obviously separate from athletes who might be using drugs of this type with a TUE depending on the sport.
 
Last edited:
Rosstour said:
You're looking at it backwards IMO

It's not that Novak is supporting Nick in the beef vs Sinner....Nick's beef with Sinner is BECAUSE he's Nick is tight with Novak

Novak hired Sinner's old trainers to learn his chemstack and how to test for it. Then told his friends in the ATP establishment when/how to test Sinner and what to look for. Then sent his attack dog Kyrgios after him

Everyone trusts Nick is clean, because he's such a truth teller....yet he just returned from a two-year absence. My guess is, was a silent ban for doping in his electrifying 2022 season

@Subway Tennis @LOBALOT @messiahrobins
Click to expand...
This story is fascinating and nuts. And what I learned since 2020 is that the crazier the story is, the more likely to be true. We're living amazing times.
 
Subway Tennis said:
I agree with a lot of what you have said here and take your point about steroids specifically.

The only thing I would add is that there is a lot of development in performance enhancement on the mental side of things and using substances where the goal is to work mainly in the mental department. Quite a few of these drugs have been recognised as PEDs deserving a ban and have been outlawed or require a TUE for use.

Not “mental strength” per se, and not steroidal, but drugs that aid in focus, decision-making in short spans of time etc etc. These can help quite a bit in technical sports requiring very short and critical moments of repetitive execution, or in field sport like football where a player might have a small but very specific and highly critical task that has to done perfectly in a very short span of time.

There are also quite a few of these compounds that are not yet on the banned list (and may even remain off it?)

Brain-mapping, which the Bryan Brothers used to use, is another method-based mental performance enhancement that may eventually end up on the list, along with some nootropic substances that can aid mental areas that are not yet banned.

I’m normally a pretty Pro-performance enhancement person but some of these drugs are probably the ones that make a banned list and enforcement still a necessity. Healthy people who dont “need” focus-related drigs could create some scary longterm dependencies taking them if they dont need to. That’s obviously separate from athletes who might be using drugs of this type with a TUE depending on the sport.
Click to expand...
Where can i get some of these focus drugs from!! Exactly what i need lol
 

Summing it all up;

Journalist
"Djokovic declared in a press conference without yet knowing who the other finalist would be, that in the final he will root for Zverev because he deserves to win his first slam"

Sinner
"Yes, it's fine. They're great friends, they've known each other for a long time. I don't see any malice towards me"

Repeat, for me there is bad blood between Djokovic and Sinner.
 
Rosstour said:
Djoko's strategy is to do that. He kills them with kindness. "Hey let's practice together, let's go out to dinner, let's go golfing or whatever together"

So the younger player either enters a situation on Djoko's "friendly" terms, which affects his mentality....or, takes the risk of offending him by saying no. It's really smart
Click to expand...
Can you find my posts from last year when we chatted about all this and i said Sinner would get a 3 month ban after the AO. Its important as the naivety of so many is baffling to me and i think it is time to highlight the fact i knew what was going to happen, and the point being if i knew then so did everyone within tennis so all the fake outrage we are now seeing is just theatre.
 
messiahrobins said:
Can you find my posts from last year when we chatted about all this and i said Sinner would get a 3 month ban after the AO. Its important as the naivety of so many is baffling to me and i think it is time to highlight the fact i knew what was going to happen, and the point being if i knew then so did everyone within tennis so all the fake outrage we are now seeing is just theatre.
Click to expand...

Just woke up but I definitely remember you saying that as well as others too.
 
There is lot of news in the media that Djokovic is accelerating his comeback for Doha, IW, Miami , MC and Madrid because he knew of the 3 month ban for Sinner.

How do you all see ??
 
ND-13 said:
There is lot of news in the media that Djokovic is accelerating his comeback for Doha, IW, Miami , MC and Madrid because he knew of the 3 month ban for Sinner.

How do you all see ??
Click to expand...

It would go neatly with my theory that Djoko has been working his connections on the tour to nail Sinner

Can you give us any links to read?
 
Winner Sinner said:

Summing it all up;

Journalist
"Djokovic declared in a press conference without yet knowing who the other finalist would be, that in the final he will root for Zverev because he deserves to win his first slam"

Sinner
"Yes, it's fine. They're great friends, they've known each other for a long time. I don't see any malice towards me"

Repeat, for me there is bad blood between Djokovic and Sinner.
Click to expand...
With djokovic being so friendly with kyrgios, its obvious he wont be that friendly with Sinner.
He supporting Sasha openly doesnt help either
 
roysid said:
With djokovic being so friendly with kyrgios, its obvious he wont be that friendly with Sinner.
He supporting Sasha openly doesnt help either
Click to expand...
The supporting Zverev thing before the AO final was really interesting. Im not sure how much to read into it (Djokovic might just want to see Zverev win a maiden major) but I’ve never seen Novak so pointedly back a non-countryman like that.

There were so many interesting things to take out of Novak’s Australia campaign. The Zverev thing was yet another Easter egg on the pile.
 
roysid said:
With djokovic being so friendly with kyrgios, its obvious he wont be that friendly with Sinner.
He supporting Sasha openly doesnt help either
Click to expand...

You're right but looking at it backwards

Nick is mean to Sinner on Novak's behalf, not the reverse
 
messiahrobins said:
Ive heard Sinner's family is on very good terms with Meloni ,which if true would make going after him futile! The Italian Federation wont want to cross Meloni i can assure you of that.
So what else was in Sinner's blood stream?
Click to expand...
Sinner is hero of Italy including the tennis federation, PM meloni everyone.
Dont think djokovic could have nailed sinner. He nay be friendly with italian tennis, but thats it.
He cannot touch Sinner and knows sinner will be favorite for HC slams, too tough to beat
 
roysid said:
Sinner is hero of Italy including the tennis federation, PM meloni everyone.
Dont think djokovic could have nailed sinner. He nay be friendly with italian tennis, but thats it.
He cannot touch Sinner and knows sinner will be favorite for HC slams, too tough to beat
Click to expand...

Djoko and Gaudenzi are tight, that's why the ATP finals moved from London to Turin

Djoko is very well connected and hiring Sinner's old trainer/physio was a big sign
 
roysid said:
Sinner is hero of Italy including the tennis federation, PM meloni everyone.
Dont think djokovic could have nailed sinner. He nay be friendly with italian tennis, but thats it.
He cannot touch Sinner and knows sinner will be favorite for HC slams, too tough to beat
Click to expand...
Djokovic will not be playing Rome this year, i think that we can now guarantee. Hence why he has decided to play both IW and Miami this season.
 
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