The importance of RG21 and 2023

[GabeT]

We may be at the very tail end of Novak’s winning days. Today I would bet Novak wins one more slam but who knows. It may turn out to be an impossible task.

Novak can’t complain, having won all the key tennis records. The biggest, of course, is the slam race, the single biggest challenge in tennis in the last few decades.

Obviously when you win 24 slams there are a lot of wins that can you can highlight as crucial. But I want to focus on two, RG21 and the slams won in 2023.

Both these happened at the end of the slam race and so happened at a time when Novak had little time left. As we are finding out now.

RG21 looks particularly large. Beating Nadal meant that instead of the race today being 23-23 it’s 24-22. After RG20 that seemed unlikely. Yet it happened.

And 2023 was the last great gasp. Reaching all four slam finals in a given year is beyond difficult. Federer did it in his peak years but couldn’t do it again after turning 28. Nadal never managed to do it once.

Those three wins in 2023 were the last push needed to win the race. Incredible scenes, as they say.

A toast to those that never give up!

 

[ghostofMecir]

We may be at the very tail end of Novak’s winning days. Today I would bet Novak wins one more slam but who knows. It may turn out to be an impossible task.

Novak can’t complain, having won all the key tennis records. The biggest, of course, is the slam race, the single biggest challenge in tennis in the last few decades.

Obviously when you win 24 slams there are a lot of wins that can you can highlight as crucial. But I want to focus on two, RG21 and the slams won in 2023.

Both these happened at the end of the slam race and so happened at a time when Novak had little time left. As we are finding out now.

RG21 looks particularly large. Beating Nadal meant that instead of the race today being 23-23 it’s 24-22. After RG20 that seemed unlikely. Yet it happened.

And 2023 was the last great gasp. Reaching all four slam finals in a given year is beyond difficult. Federer did it in his peak years but couldn’t do it again after turning 28. Nadal never managed to do it once.

Those three wins in 2023 were the last push needed to win the race. Incredible scenes, as they say.

A toast to those that never give up!

I’ve bolded and enlarged the key parts of the post – since you wanted to say these things in a roundabout way I might as well highlight them for others in yet another insipid thread.

 

[MeatTornado]

I don't really see how RG 23 was of any particular importance. Winning it didn't set up another CYGS attempt like 21 did, considering he lost at Wimbledon. And he ended up winning the USO later that year that would've given himself the lead in the slam race anyway. Reaching all 4 finals at his age was really good, but not exactly an accomplishment that's talked about a lot.

RG 23 feels like just a run of the mill win for him that's no more or less important than the majority of his 23 other wins.

 

[GabeT]

I’ve bolded and enlarged the key parts of post – since you wanted to say these things in a roundabout way I might as well highlight them for others and another insipid thread.

There’s nothing roundabout. The tennis world has decided, roughly since Sampras, that the slam race is the key tennis goal for the best players. It’s what drove the Big 3 to become what they are.

 

[GabeT]

I don't really see how RG 23 was of any particular importance. Winning it didn't set up another CYGS attempt like 21 did, considering he lost at Wimbledon. And he ended up winning the USO later that year that would've given himself the lead in the slam race anyway. Reaching all 4 finals at his age was really good, but not exactly an accomplishment that's talked about a lot.

RG 23 feels like just a run of the mill win for him that's no more or less important than the majority of his 23 other wins.

Did I not explain myself correctly? Apologies if so.

I meant RG21 and the whole of 2023, not just RG23

 

[ghostofMecir]

There’s nothing roundabout. The tennis world has decided, roughly since Sampras, that the last race is the key tennis goal for the best players. It’s what drove the Big 3 to become what they are.

Your post is roundabout. Nobody cares about the importance of two random slams and neither do you —you just want to talk about Djokovic winning the slam race and winning 24 slams after the beating he took yesterday. Just be happy. He had four or five years there to play random lost generation players that allow him to inflate his totals.

 

[MeatTornado]

Did I not explain myself correctly? Apologies if so.

I meant RG21 and the whole of 2023, not just RG23

No, that's on me, i read that wrong.

 

[GabeT]

Your post is roundabout. Nobody cares about the importance of two random slams and neither do you —you just want to talk about Djokovic winning the slam race and winning 24 slams after the beating he took yesterday. Just be happy. He had four or five years there to play random lost generation players that allow him to inflate his totals.

So you know what I care about or not? Fascinating!

 

[Lleytonstation]

Honestly I feel like 2023 was just a cherry on top type feel. The race was over.

 

[GabeT]

Honestly I feel like 2023 was just a cherry on top type feel. The race was over.

I get it it but technically it wasn’t. At the start of 2023 Nadal was still ahead. Had Novak’s slump started one year earlier we might be having a very different discussion today

 

[Tano]

RG 2021 was the key for Djokovic and his obsession to be the tennis player with the most GS titles in history.

 

[Lleytonstation]

I get it it but technically it wasn’t. At the start of 2023 Nadal was still ahead. Had Novak’s slump started one year earlier we might be having a very different discussion today

True, I remember thinking at the time he was guaranteed to win AO and WC so it was over. He swapped USO and WC and added RG, so for me it was like alright he cleared.

 

[GabeT]

RG 2021 was the key for Djokovic and his obsession to be the tennis player with the most GS titles in history.

That’s an obsession shared by only a very small group of players

 

[GabeT]

True, I remember thinking at the time he was guaranteed to win AO and WC so it was over. He swapped USO and WC and added RG, so for me it was like alright he cleared.

After WTF2023 I think most expected Novak to continue winning more slams. But he may well be done for. We’ve always known that the level can drop very quickly once players age. That’s why I think 2023 was so crucial. Novak never lost his focus.

 

[Oceans II]

W20, USO20, AO22, USO22 is still the elephant in the room. A whole fricken season of non-clay slams missed. I don't even know how people have the audacity to complain. I feel 2023 was in a way karmic justice for 2022 and 2021 for 2020. The one slam where Nole was treated well and respected by the crowd in 2022 was the one slam he didn't win in 2023.

 

[inflation_era]

Watch his win over Shapovolov in one of the late Wimbledon's, tells you all you need to know about how he won more slams in the tail end of his career than the beginning and why he achieved the slam title.

 

[Day_Tripper]

Novak won the slam race for the simple reason that his generation was followed by the lost 90's generation - possibly the worst generation in modern tennis history. He enjoyed the luxury of playing almost his entire career without having to face a younger all time great. This accounts for the incongruity between his achievements and his playing style.

How do you think he would have fared had Sinner and Alcaraz been born in the 90's and he'd had to deal with high quality opposition like Federer did in the form of Djokovic and Nadal?

 

[GabeT]

W20, USO20, AO22, USO22 is still the elephant in the room. A whole fricken season of non-clay slams missed. I don't even know how people have the audacity to complain. I feel 2023 was in a way karmic justice for 2022 and 2021 for 2020. The one slam where Nole was treated well and respected by the crowd in 2022 was the one slam he didn't win in 2023.

Well, that’s true and whole other story. There’s a good chance he’d have won more and possibly stopped Nadal (AO22) even further so that 2023 would have lost relevance.

 

[GabeT]

Novak won the slam race for the simple reason that his generation was followed by the lost 90's generation - possibly the worst generation in modern tennis history. He enjoyed the luxury of playing almost his entire career without having to face a younger all time great. This accounts for the incongruity between his achievements and his playing style.

How do you think he would have fared had Sinner and Alcaraz been born in the 90's and he'd had to deal with high quality opposition like Federer did in the form of Djokovic and Nadal?

Let me know when you come up with the “tennis generation measuring tool” so we can all use it.

 

[pirhaksar]

As far as I am concerned Novak has unfinished business at the USO a slam he has grossly and ‘bigly’ underperformed. If he can win one last tournament and retire the next moment that would be the USO for me.

 

[Day_Tripper]

Let me know when you come up with the “tennis generation measuring tool” so we can all use it.

Is this even up for conjecture? The lost 90's generation is almost universally derided as being abysmal. Do you disagree?
There is a 15 year gap between Nadal and Djokovic to Alzcaraz/Sinner. That is an unprecented long period for no 'all time great' to emerge on the tour.

 

[Federev]

Did I not explain myself correctly? Apologies if so.

I meant RG21 and the whole of 2023, not just RG23

What’s so big about just RG23?

He won THREE slams last year.

Stop highlighting RG23 like some kind of psycho.

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

He did it just in the nick of time which makes it all the more sweeter.

I agree if he was still say on 20 or 21 slams now then Nadal would have won the slam race. At this point Alcaraz has Novak beat and probably sinner does too. He will also find others tougher as he declines more and gets even older. I don’t see him winning any more slams.

 

[Hitman]

Djokovic slayed when he needed to, and got the records just before the window shut for him.

Incredible scenes.

 

[Sport]

To think Novak ALMOST tied Fed's W total titles.

If only he had been clutcher in that TB of the W 2023 final.

I think the W 2023 final must be one of the hardest losses to digest for Novak fans.

 

[Razer]

Djokovic slayed when he needed to, and got the records just before the window shut for him.

Incredible scenes.

Djoker did face some roadblocks / setbacks in between like Vaccination bans to lose 2 slams that were winnable in 2022, then DQ in 2020, cancellation of wimbledon in 2020, those were setbacks which helped Nandal (the most) and Roger since Nandal was still in shape to vulture something while Federer was broken completely bodywise.

 

[Razer]

To think Novak ALMOST tied Fed's W total titles.

If only he had been clutcher in that TB of the W 2023 final.

I think the W 2023 final must be one of the hardest losses to digest for Novak fans.

Djokovic should not even be on 7 wimbledons, he is not as good as Federer/Sampras, so I would say Novak getting stuck on 7 is really justice.

Let him win HC slams more, an AO preferably, he deserves that but no more wimbledons.

 

[Sport]

Djokovic should not even be on 7 wimbledons, he is not as good as Federer/Sampras, so I would say Novak getting stuck on 7 is really justice.

Let him win HC slams more, an AO preferably, he deserves that.

You're viewing it from the perspective of Federer fans.

Many Djokovic fans would've started to say that because he's 3-0 in W finals, he's greater or at least equal to Roger at W.

There would have been a debate, but most people would still side with Roger as the grass GOAT.

 

[Hitman]

To think Novak ALMOST tied Fed's W total titles.

If only he had been clutcher in that TB of the W 2023 final.

I think the W 2023 final must be one of the hardest losses to digest for Novak fans.

It wasn't that bad actually, I was still riding high from him breaking the slam record and getting triple career slam, and then he won that 4th USO. His resume looks much more balanced now.

 

[Hitman]

You're viewing it from the perspective of Federer fans.

Many Djokovic fans would've started to say that because he's 3-0 in W finals, he's greater or at least equal to Roger at W.

There would have been a debate, but most people would still side with Roger as the grass GOAT.

I've spoken with a lot of Djokovic fans, and being one myself, most of us will still see Federer as the grass GOAT, even if they were tied at 8-8.

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Djokovic should not even be on 7 wimbledons, he is not as good as Federer/Sampras, so I would say Novak getting stuck on 7 is really justice.

Let him win HC slams more, an AO preferably, he deserves that but no more wimbledons.

I’m more than satisfied with 7 as you say. I feel Novak overachieved At Wimbledon and underachieved at us open.

I always felt hard courts is the most natural surface for Djokovic and where he’s played his best tennis overall.

He’s did great a Wimbledon but I agree weaker fields have helped but he took advantage of it before king Carlos came along

 

[Razer]

You're viewing it from the perspective of Federer fans.

Many Djokovic fans would've started to say that because he's 3-0 in W finals, he's greater or at least equal to Roger at W.

There would have been a debate, but most people would still side with Roger as the grass GOAT.

Federer fans' perspective is more accurate than Djokovic fans in this case. 3-0 doesnt matter since they are 6 years apart, for H2H to really really matter 2 players should be of the same age.

Why do you think Novak is stuck on 7 if he is that good to get 3-0 on Fed ? That should answer your question... the 3-0 itself is fraud and would not happen if their age was same, so this mean Novak isn't as good as he is billed to be. Federer would have dealt with Alcaraz in a better way, Roger is the master, and if you look at things then nature did justice to Sampras as well since Roger was also looking to win lot of wimbledons but no sooner did he win his 7th wimbledon the next ones became impossible with Novak blocking him.

I think Sampras is the only person who deserves 10-11 wimbledons in the modern era given how dominant he was in his 20s.....majestic 7 titles.

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

I've spoken with a lot of Djokovic fans, and being one myself, most of us will still see Federer as the grass GOAT, even if they were tied at 8-8.

Agreed. Fed would still be ahead in my eyes too. More finals still and Fed just more natural and better on the grass for me.

 

[Razer]

I’m more than satisfied with 7 as you say. I feel Novak overachieved At Wimbledon and underachieved at us open.

I always felt hard courts is the most natural surface for Djokovic and where he’s played his best tennis overall.

He’s did great a Wimbledon but I agree weaker fields have helped but he took advantage of it before king Carlos came along

yes he underachieved at USO

 

[Hitman]

Agreed. Fed would still be ahead in my eyes too. More finals still and Fed just my natural and better on the grass for me.

Yes. Most of us will always still see Federer as grass GOAT, winning 8 W titles for Djokovic wouldn't change anything.

I am just happy that Djokovic is a legend on grass in his own right, don't need anything more. The overall slam race is what mattered the most.

 

[Sport]

Federer fans' perspective is more accurate than Djokovic fans in this case. 3-0 doesnt matter since they are 6 years apart, for H2H to really really matter 2 players should be of the same age.

Why do you think Novak is stuck on 7 if he is that good to get 3-0 on Fed ? That should answer your question... the 3-0 itself is fraud and would not happen if their age was same, so this mean Novak isn't as good as he is billed to be. Federer would have dealt with Alcaraz in a better way, Roger is the master, and if you look at things then nature did justice to Sampras as well since Roger was also looking to win lot of wimbledons but no sooner did he win his 7th wimbledon the next ones became impossible with Novak blocking him.

I think Sampras is the only person who deserves 10-11 wimbledons in the modern era given how dominant he was in his 20s.....majestic 7 titles.

So it seems like Carlos shaved Federer's legacy on grass. If not for him, chances are Novak could be on 8 or even 9 Wimbledon titles (assuming Novak would have beaten Medvedev this edition).

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

You're viewing it from the perspective of Federer fans.

Many Djokovic fans would've started to say that because he's 3-0 in W finals, he's greater or at least equal to Roger at W.

There would have been a debate, but most people would still side with Roger as the grass GOAT.

I think Feds just better on grass than Djokovic. Despite Djokovic great record against him they did come at the tail end of Feds career.

Djokovic had did amazing on grass but overall against all opponents and looking at peak levels or who more natural I have Fed ahead of Novak even if they tied.

Fed blew a couple of matches due to chokes and being the older guy to be fair. I still think Fed has the highest grass level but alcaraz potentially could challenge it if he keeps up this pace.

 

[junior74]

To think Novak ALMOST tied Fed's W total titles.

If only he had been clutcher in that TB of the W 2023 final.

I think the W 2023 final must be one of the hardest losses to digest for Novak fans.

To be fair, Novak pretty much maxed out. He has very few tight losses. He is super clutch, and the tight wins (Fed x3, Nadal, Wawrinka (that’s a slam race tights there) should outshine W23 and RG13.

 

[Razer]

So it seems like Carlos shaved Federer's legacy on grass. If not for him, chances are Novak could be on 8 or even 9 Wimbledon titles (assuming Novak would have beaten Medvedev this edition).

Yes Carlos saved Federer's dignity by stopping Djokovic on 7, and Djokovic also stopped Federer on 8, he tried to stop Federer on 7 itself but injury for Djokovic helped Federer win his 8th because he was destined to cross 7 in his 30s. Sampras set the bar at 7 at 29 and that is really hard bar, winning 7 titles by age 29 is very hard.

Lets see how many wimbledons Alcaraz can win, he should win minimum 5+ ...

 

[Sport]

To be fair, Novak pretty much maxed out. He has very few tight losses. He is super clutch, and the tight wins (Fed x3, Nadal, Wawrinka (that’s a slam race tights there) should outshine W23 and RG13.

The W 2023 final will forever be a classic. What a match! A classic "passing of the torch" moment, when the young is knocking on the door of the mature player who refuses to give his crown without a brutal battle.

It reminds me a lot of the W 2021 epic clash between Roger and Sampras.

 

[Nappa]

I find RG 2020 much more revealing in Nadalovic rivalry since it was a final playing for the championship and Nadal wasn't injured in it. The difference of level was astonishing.

 

[Razer]

I find RG 2020 much more revealing in Nadalovic rivalry since it was a final playing for the championship and Nadal wasn't injured in it. The difference of level was astonishing.

But Nadal ended up as a loser in the end.... so that did not matter at all.... Nadal can now retire in peace knowing that he always remained rank 2 and became the greatest rank 2.

 

[Hitman]

I find RG 2020 much more revealing in Nadalovic rivalry since it was a final playing for the championship and Nadal wasn't injured in it. The difference of level was astonishing.

I find AO 2019 to be even better, Nadal coming in having dropped zero sets, handing out bagels left and right, in peak form, and then crush when he faced Djokovic would showed why he was AO GOAT.

 

[thrust]

I get it it but technically it wasn’t. At the start of 2023 Nadal was still ahead. Had Novak’s slump started one year earlier we might be having a very different discussion today

Novak won 3 slams in 23 so how could the race have been over, in Novak's favor before 23 as he only has 2 more slams than Rafa?

 

[GabeT]

I find RG 2020 much more revealing in Nadalovic rivalry since it was a final playing for the championship and Nadal wasn't injured in it. The difference of level was astonishing.

RG20 ultimately did not make a difference in the slam race, unlike RG21

 

[Sport]

I find AO 2019 to be even better, Nadal coming in having dropped zero sets, handing out bagels left and right, in peak form, and then crush when he faced Djokovic would showed why he was AO GOAT.

Wouldn't say that Nadal was peak form, his movement was much slower than in the AO 2012. In 2012 he was younger and possessed a better offense-defense combination, making it a peak version of Nadal.

With that being said, I'm not gonna say (like other Nadal fans do) that Rafa was trash at the AO 2019. That's salty and unobjective on their part. He indeed reached the final without losing sets, his offensive toolkit was working superb against lesser opponents, but when he faced Novak his lack of defense hampered by a slow movement was manifest. I think he was playing good tennis (just like Novak was playing good tennis at RG 2020), but not peak tennis.

 

[Hitman]

Wouldn't say that Nadal was peak form, his movement was much slower than in the AO 2012. In 2012 he was younger and possessed a better offense-defense combination, making it a peak version of Nadal.

With that being said, I'm not gonna say (like other Nadal fans do) that Rafa was trash at the AO 2019. That's salty and unobjective on their part. He indeed reached the final without losing sets, his offensive toolkit was working superb against lesser opponents, but when he faced Novak his lack of defense hampered by a slow movement was manifest. I think he was playing good tennis (just like Novak was playing good tennis at RG 2020), but not peak tennis.

My friend, I'm giving troll post a troll answer. That's how you deal with them.

 

[BigThreeForever]

Wouldn't say that Nadal was peak form, his movement was much slower than in the AO 2012. In 2012 he was younger and possessed a better offense-defense combination, making it a peak version of Nadal.

With that being said, I'm not gonna say (like other Nadal fans do) that Rafa was trash at the AO 2019. That's salty and unobjective on their part. He indeed reached the final without losing sets, his offensive toolkit was working superb against lesser opponents, but when he faced Novak his lack of defense hampered by a slow movement was manifest. I think he was playing good tennis (just like Novak was playing good tennis at RG 2020), but not peak tennis.

AO 2012 Nadal has to be one of the best "losers" in a Grand Slam tournament. Was in his best consistency phase, peaking for the tournament, beating Berdych and Federer, and then taking the AO GOAT to five-sets.

 

[GoatNo1]

those 2 means also 3x CGS that with 2x GM gives another dimension tohis accomplishments

 

[Nappa]

My friend, I'm giving troll post a troll answer. That's how you deal with them.

Trolling is putting context aside and focus on plain numbers, cherrypicking what you want to highlight to back your narrative.