The important Wawrinka has had on the way things currently stand; damage he has done to Djokovic

#1
I had never thought of this until someone else indirectly referenced it in another thread but it is amazing to realize without Wawrinka Djokovic would currently be at 18 slams, while Federer and Nadal still being at 20 and 17. Djokovic would already be ahead of Nadal, and be virtually guaranteed to breeze pass Federer, rather than just maybe having a chance to pass/catch him in slams as currently is. It is amazing to realize what a huge difference a relative non entity and one of the weakest 3+ slam winners ever like Wawrinka has made to how things stand, and to Djokovic's current situation. Djokovic must really hate Stan. :-D
 
#5
This is only true if you are just saying everything would remain the same and there would be no ripple effect if you changed something in the past. There is always going to be a ripple effect though. If Djokovic didn't lose RG 2015 he probably wouldn't have won 4 Slams in a row so he wouldn't be at 18 anyway. It was the disappointment from that loss that led him on a tear in the 1st place. Djokovic is so head strong that if he wants to achieve something he will give it everything he has and a couple of losses probably won't deter him much as long as he's healthy.
 

DSH

Professional
#7
You can't remove Stan and take for granted Djokovic wins. There were other players in the draws.

That said, their slam rivalry is some of the best entertainment I've seen in modern tennis (y)
indeed, tell me how it ends for federer, nadal and dakokovic in that regard (gs tally)
 

uscwang

Hall of Fame
#9
I thought Stan appreciation day is on Monday after GS.
Anyway, let's not forget Stan, with Nadal, Fed, Murray kept pushing Novak and made him a better player. Without them, Novak would have won more trophies, but not as good a player.
 
#11
It's a mystery how Djokovic managed to lose to this dude but USO 16 Djoko was not in form at all and was struggling physically. He got walkovers to the finals so that loss was hardly a missed opportunity. FO 15 though was a shocking loss and unexpected.
 

mike danny

Talk Tennis Guru
#14
It's a mystery how Djokovic managed to lose to this dude but USO 16 Djoko was not in form at all and was struggling physically. He got walkovers to the finals so that loss was hardly a missed opportunity. FO 15 though was a shocking loss.
If he had got Nishikori in the final instead, Novak would have won 2016 USO.

Basically, if Evans had converted that MP of his, Novak would have been the 2016 USO champion.
 
#17
If he had got Nishikori in the final instead, Novak would have won 2016 USO.

Basically, if Evans had converted that MP of his, Novak would have been the 2016 USO champion.
Maybe but bottom line is Djokovic was not in slam winning form. His form had dropped drastically in the second half.
 

acintya

Hall of Fame
#21
It was a fantastic performance but one or two "peak" performances is hardly enough to say he is one of the strongest players peak wise.
i dont understand this.
if you build the fastest car and you drive it only once and break all records then this is a peak performance for me - no need to drive it twice. im just saying wawrinka was a beast back then. not before,or later.
 
#22
You can't remove Stan and take for granted Djokovic wins. There were other players in the draws.
Well looking at those specific draws who would have beaten him. Obviously it would have to be someone else who Wawrinka defeated in each case. Players who Djokovic already defeated can not be considered as Djokovic already defeated them.

2014 Australian Open- Nadal cant beat Djokovic at the Australian Open to begin with and was badly injured in the final on top of that. Fat chance a badly injured Nadal is beating Djokovic when an on fire Nadal couldnt in 2012. Berdclown beating an in form Djokovic at his favorite slam is even more far fetched.

2015 French Open- Tsonga, Federer, or Simon, ROTFL, next. If this were the Australian or U.S Open I would entertain Federer or Tsonga depending on their form.

2016 U.S Open- This is the only one I could see there even being a small possability of Djokovic not winning sans Wawrinka since Djokovic was subpar here and very beatable. It is less likely though as Murray lost (not to Wawrinka or Djokovic), and Federer and Nadal were out of the mix altogether around this time, so Djokovic likely still ends up winning by default without Wawrinka in the way. Just maybe Del Potro could have pulled it off, but Djokovic owns him historically, especialy in best of 5, so still unlikely. Especialy as he wasnt playing as well here at the Open as he was at the Olympics where he beat Djokovic who was in much poorer form than the Open, and in a best of 3. Nishikori maybe a very small shot since he did it in 2014, but even more unlikely than Del Potro.

So we have two pretty much 100% and one more 80% I guess in the 2016 U.S Open.
 
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#23
Wawrinka is simply a bad match-up for Novak, that's the only explanation, because he is inferior in every sense of the word to Djokovic.
He can hit the ball with a bit more vicious pace and penetration off the ground than Djokovic, so I wouldnt quite say inferior in every sense, but I see your point.
 
#24
2015 FO was the lowest point for me as a Novak fan. No other loss before or since felt worse than that.

Luckily he won Wimbledon a month later, and the other Slams in a row after that, including the FO.
 
#26
If Stan wasn't there, Djokovic would have lost that USO final to Nishikori or Del Potro.
I believe that is possible. Still not sure that would have happened, but it is the only 1 of those 3 slams I see any chance Djokovic losing in without Wawrinka. I dont see any possible scenario he loses at Australian 2014 or French 2015 when all the others who might have beaten him he already won against or already fell in the draw to players that werent Wawrinka.

I dont have an easy time envisioning him losing to non peak Del Potro or Nishikori in a slam final, but he was pretty vurnerable and ripe for the picking at the point of the 2016 U.S Open too.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
#28
I had never thought of this until someone else indirectly referenced it in another thread but it is amazing to realize without Wawrinka Djokovic would currently be at 18 slams, while Federer and Nadal still being at 20 and 17. Djokovic would already be ahead of Nadal, and be virtually guaranteed to breeze pass Federer, rather than just maybe having a chance to pass/catch him in slams as currently is. It is amazing to realize what a huge difference a relative non entity and one of the weakest 3+ slam winners ever like Wawrinka has made to how things stand, and to Djokovic's current situation. Djokovic must really hate Stan. :-D
I guess if it wasn't for Murray either he would now be on 20 Slams and equal Goat with Federer with the likely prospect of shortly surpassing him. What a pair of Novak party poopers Andy and Stan turned out to be! ;)
 
#30
I guess if it wasn't for Murray either he would now be on 20 Slams and equal Goat with Federer with the likely prospect of shortly surpassing him. What a pair of Novak party poopers Andy and Stan turned out to be! ;)
StanMurral! The ultimate two headed beast and Djokovic destroyer. Dont forget Djokovic also being at 6 YE#1s already too without the StanMurral.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
#31
It's a mystery how Djokovic managed to lose to this dude but USO 16 Djoko was not in form at all and was struggling physically. He got walkovers to the finals so that loss was hardly a missed opportunity. FO 15 though was a shocking loss and unexpected.
To think that Stan was a point away from going out to Dan Evans at 2016 USO. If Dan had been a little more clutch on serve when at match point, Djokovic might now be on 16 Slams and that much closer to surpassing Rafa and Fed.
 

Red Rick

Talk Tennis Guru
#38
I guess if it wasn't for Murray either he would now be on 20 Slams and equal Goat with Federer with the likely prospect of shortly surpassing him. What a pair of Novak party poopers Andy and Stan turned out to be! ;)
Probably Olympic Gold as well, considering Freddies performance in that final.
 
#40
Just Djokovic? Is he the only player on the tour?
Fedal own Wawrinka. So any hypothetical involving him is of no real consequence to either.

Wawrinka does pretty well against Murray, and seems to be a bit more of a clutch big day performer, so it is possible Murray is fortunate Wawrinka did not get it together even sooner than he did. I await @Mainad's opinion on that though. :-D 2 of Murray's 3 slams are Wimbledons where Wawrinka is just a shade above useless anyhow though. And where he really shines and contends frequently is AO and FO where Murray is title-less as it is.
 
#41
Fedal own Wawrinka. So any hypothetical involving him is of no real consequence to either.
Didn't he beat them in RG15 QF and AO14 F?


Wawrinka hasn't really fared that well against Nadal and Federer, except for AO14.
Before Wawrinka's peak, he wasn't so good against Djokovic either. And Nadal and Federer didn't play much against Wawrinka after RG15.
 
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Mainad

Bionic Poster
#42
Fedal own Wawrinka. So any hypothetical involving him is of no real consequence to either.

Wawrinka does pretty well against Murray, and seems to be a bit more of a clutch big day performer, so it is possible Murray is fortunate Wawrinka did not get it together even sooner than he did. I await @Mainad's opinion on that though. :-D 2 of Murray's 3 slams are Wimbledons where Wawrinka is just a shade above useless anyhow though. And where he really shines and contends frequently is AO and FO where Murray is title-less as it is.
Well, Murray beat peak Wawrinka at Roland Garros, where Stan was defending champion and then beat him again at the WTF in straights. They last met at 2017 RG where they fought a 5 setter which Wawrinka edged. Murray was already feeling the effects of his bad hip by then and Stan got injured too.
 
#44
Well, Murray beat peak Wawrinka at Roland Garros, where Stan was defending champion and then beat him again at the WTF in straights. They last met at 2017 RG where they fought a 5 setter which Wawrinka edged. Murray was already feeling the effects of his bad hip by then and Stan got injured too.
Stan does have a winning record vs Murray overall on clay (tied at the French though) and at the U.S Open. Clay isnt really surprising to anyone of course, but the U.S Open is surprising to me since a)Murray career wise is significantly better on all faster surfaces, b) even moreso 2 of their 3 matches there were before Wawrinka was even any semblance of a top player. Remember those first 2 matches occured in 2008 (won by Murray) and 2010 (won by Wawrinka). Even the 2013 U.S open quarterfinal match was before Wawrinka had ever won a slam, before his first slam semi I believe, since that occured at this very U.S Open. I dont believe they ever played at the Australian Open which is Stan's 2nd best slam, maybe they had a meeting many years ago I dont know about.

Murray can hold his own for sure, even beating prime Wawrinka on clay is evidence of that, but it seems Wawrinka is definitely a tough opponent for him. Their head to head is almost a tie, something like 11-9 or 11-10 isnt it? I guess that shouldnt be surprising when both are 3 slam winners, but somehow it feels like it is; maybe because of how useless Wawrinka is against Fedal, and how extremely lopsided his overall losing record is vs Djokovic despite the slam success. And that is counting all the matches for many years when Wawrinka was a journeyman regular top 20 type player, which probably takes up about half those matches, and he still managed to make it a very close head to head.

So breaking down the Big 4 members I would say Wawrinka is just a simple asswipe for Fedal, with even grandpa Fed barely breaking a sweat to beat him off of clay and slow high bouncing hard court, a legit threat to Djokovic, and an even bigger threat/quite competive nice rivalry for Murray. In addition to Federer being a horrible technical match up for Stan (and the much better player), Stan seems completely spooked and timid when they play ever since I first saw them play one another in 2008, probably the dual Swiss and being in Federer's shadow at home thing. By contrast Del Potro is a tougher opponent for Fedal than he is for either Djokovic or Murray, especialy Djokovic who is his nightmare, especialy in a best of 5.
 
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axlrose

Professional
#45
I had never thought of this until someone else indirectly referenced it in another thread but it is amazing to realize without Wawrinka Djokovic would currently be at 18 slams, while Federer and Nadal still being at 20 and 17. Djokovic would already be ahead of Nadal, and be virtually guaranteed to breeze pass Federer, rather than just maybe having a chance to pass/catch him in slams as currently is. It is amazing to realize what a huge difference a relative non entity and one of the weakest 3+ slam winners ever like Wawrinka has made to how things stand, and to Djokovic's current situation. Djokovic must really hate Stan. :-D
:laughing:

This is a typical case about the hype about Stan. Without Murray Djo would be at 20? Without Nishikori 21? Without Querry 22? Without Istomin 23? But Stan is still the only man who stops Djoker?

I myself can beat USO16 Djoker, a guy with serious mental trouble, an elbow injury, 3 walk-overs, bleeding in the final... LMAO. If USO16 is peak Djoker then this AO Murray must be peak Murray,
 
#46
Wawrinka is simply a bad match-up for Novak, that's the only explanation, because he is inferior in every sense of the word to Djokovic.
True that Djokovic is technically superior but the BH of Wawrinka when it's on is a formidable weapon which even Djokovic has trouble with because of its sheer power and weight of ball.
 
#49
It's a mystery how Djokovic managed to lose to this dude but USO 16 Djoko was not in form at all and was struggling physically. He got walkovers to the finals so that loss was hardly a missed opportunity. FO 15 though was a shocking loss and unexpected.
Djokovic feared the Stanimal and it showed in his tennis when he was up against him in the 2 finals they contested. Djokovic just didn't play his game and was pushed around by Stan. Very similar to how Nadal was unable to play his game and got destroyed by Djokovic in the AO final.
 
#50
:laughing:

This is a typical case about the hype about Stan. Without Murray Djo would be at 20? Without Nishikori 21? Without Querry 22? Without Istomin 23? But Stan is still the only man who stops Djoker?

I myself can beat USO16 Djoker, a guy with serious mental trouble, an elbow injury, 3 walk-overs, bleeding in the final... LMAO. If USO16 is peak Djoker then this AO Murray must be peak Murray,
LOL
 
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