'The Inner Game of Tennis' and 'Winning Ugly' - Who uses them?

SouthernCourts

Semi-Pro
I just bought and read both of these books more or less simultaneously, and it was a totally fascinating experience. In some ways, they're contradictory—one book is encouraging you to completely silence the ego-self in favor of the instinctual self, while the other is basically encouraging you to out-think your opponent. (I had to laugh after reading an Inner Game chapter about basically turning off your self-analytical brain followed by a Winning Ugly chapter where Gilbert encourages you to take notes during changeovers about your strengths and weaknesses.)

On the other hand, I think they're at least a little complementary. I can say I greatly enjoyed both and hope to take something from each. Gilbert's advice is self-explanatory and super helpful on a practical level, and I hope to take some of the abstract ideas from Inner Game and apply them on court, especially when it comes to frustration and, my big weakness, concentration lapses (especially after winning a first set). Who else has read and put into practice some of the theories and advice from these books?
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
Many of us here (if you read earlier posts).

I for one try to "completely silence the ego-self" and think only about one, max two technical things (such as keep eyes at contact point through the contact). And be able to diagnose one's game after the shot etc.

I rarely use Winning Ugly.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Since I'd rather lose pretty than win ugly, I don't think I'll ever read Brad's book. Winning at all costs is for people that make money off the game, not for rec players that find enjoyment in just seeing their strokes improve.

I've read parts of the inner game but that was years ago and I have no idea if anything stuck. I'm more about using simple strategies and focusing on, well, focus during a match.
 

SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
Loehr managed to combine the twin societal forces of (1) the tennis boom and (2) the hippie rejection of all things related to work and effort to ascend to the top of the bestseller charts.

Gilbert managed to combine honest self-analysis and careful observation of the results of tactical choices to ascend to #4 in the world with limited talent.

Your mileage may vary, but only one of them is actually a tennis book.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
Winning Ugly is a classic. Read it many years ago. Also got his other book I Got Your Back but that was more about his time with Roddick. I did put Winning Ugly into practice but ignored what didn't work for me when I first started playing.

Some of it seems like common sense now but when you're first starting it's a nice guide.
 

Crocodile

G.O.A.T.
Both books have there place. I see Gilbert's book as tactical mind mapping whereas Timothy Gallway is more of a performance/concentration thing and ideal performance state. Both are interrelated and I think that each book will suit different people. The Gallway book will apeal to those who also like to read Zen Tennis, whereas Gilbet's book will appeal more to the analytical type minds.
 

shindemac

Hall of Fame
I've read books about tactics and strategy, and I apply the basics. It's a good read for any of those types of books if you're never read any of them, but I don't apply it religiously. Before I read them, i used to think hitting winners was the name of the game from anywhere, esp. when you are out of position. Just cause you see the pros do them routinely all the time on tv, so you try to copy the pros.

I haven't read Mental Tennis or any of those sorts of books because I never really believed or thought they would be useful to be honest. I've developed my own mental bag of tricks that I have discovered and works for me. Ironically, i have just re-invented the wheel, and there are books and posts on this forum going back to 2009 that have already described in detail everything i have "discovered". So i have no idea what these books say, but based on what others have written and who have read the books, it's pretty similar.
 

Oz_Rocket

Professional
If I could only give one of these books to someone starting out in competitive tournament play it would be Winning Ugly.

Like it or not tennis has more than its fair share of people who want to win at any cost including outright cheating and gamesmanship. Winning Ugly just lays it out bare, gives a good insight into the mental aspect of that side of the game and how to deal with it.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
If I could only give one of these books to someone starting out in competitive tournament play it would be Winning Ugly.

Like it or not tennis has more than its fair share of people who want to win at any cost including outright cheating and gamesmanship. Winning Ugly just lays it out bare, gives a good insight into the mental aspect of that side of the game and how to deal with it.
Wasn't there one story of a guy Brad played that took a shower in-between sets. HAHAHAHA
 

Jim A

Professional
Winning Ugly is a good pit stop for strategy for a lot of beginning players. It's interesting even now how few players have a plan for a match. This gives them a good starting point for thinking during a match and some tactics to consider and how to handle others who may try to take advantage.
 

pantam

Rookie
I have read them both.
Inner game learning you how to learn.
Winning ugly talks about win tactics.
Both are very very helpful in all levels of play
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Great tip from *Winning Ugly*: during warmup, to figure out which stroke your opponent prefers, hit several shots straight up the middle and see which way he moves. Of course, most people prefer their FH but it could be useful if you run into one of the rare ones that prefer the BH.
 

PMChambers

Hall of Fame
Not sure why Brad is considered talentless. He didn't have any Top 10 power plays but his touch and positioning where very sound. He hit pretty flat. He was very reliant on match up. Although highest ranking was 4, his YE was 6 & 10. He probably got worked out more than a form slump. I think he likes to talk his talentless rubbish up to elevate his mental stature.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Loehr managed to combine the twin societal forces of (1) the tennis boom and (2) the hippie rejection of all things related to work and effort to ascend to the top of the bestseller charts.

Gilbert managed to combine honest self-analysis and careful observation of the results of tactical choices to ascend to #4 in the world with limited talent.

Your mileage may vary, but only one of them is actually a tennis book.

FYI, The Inner Game of Tennis was written by Tim Gallwey, not James Loehr.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
Since I'd rather lose pretty than win ugly, I don't think I'll ever read Brad's book. Winning at all costs is for people that make money off the game, not for rec players that find enjoyment in just seeing their strokes improve.

I've read parts of the inner game but that was years ago and I have no idea if anything stuck. I'm more about using simple strategies and focusing on, well, focus during a match.
That is not what the main premise of the book is about at all (ie. win at all costs).
It's more about the pyschological aspects of the game... some things i learned:
* not all points are created equal
* look for patterns and exploit them
* look for weaknesses and exploit (guidelines on how to discover them)
* how to ease into a match
etc...

some tactics i employ:
* usually never choose to serve first - ie. because the first service game in a match is likely to be the easiest game to break (due to nerves, etc...)
* go for high % shots at the start of a match - give youself a chance to get into a groove
* notice grips (eg. western grip - slice alot, etc...)
 

10isMaestro

Semi-Pro
I usually make use of concepts and experimental results I encountered in psychology courses. Here are a few that might interest you:

1. The Atkinson-Schiffrin model of memory shows how multi-tasking is detrimental to executing tasks each task by introducing the idea of a limited ability to pay attention (specifically, this has to do with the availability of blocs of information in short term memory), as well as how learning occurs (by making blocs of information larger);

2. The concept of a zone of proximal development that lies between acquired skills and skills that are out of reach explicits why you need a specific level of difficulty to learn. Developmental psychology also insists on tying challenges with the appropriate ressources to meet them and learn. Applying those ideas tells you exactly what you need to improve at anything. Also, as improvement is including more tasks within the set of acquired skills, it means we have to increase the difficulty of challenges to match increasing skills;

3. Piaget's concepts of assimilation and accomodation breaks down learning in terms of width and depth. Assimilation works through repetition (as you iteratively execute a task, it becomes part of you) and, accomodation, through the confrontation of assimilated skills with new circumstances (if you learnt that pulling doors open them and run across a sliding door, by jerking it around you will eventually learn that there exists many doors). So we have width and depth, introducing new skills and adding nuances -- each aspect imply, as you might guess, different challenges;

4. We can think of speech as an indicator of thought. As such, requesting that a person shouts out loud decisions gives insight about when those decisions are made and, sometimes, also about the presence of hesitation in the process. That can be used to devise drills to improve decision making;

5. In communication psychology, there is a distinction between trigger events and events to which we react -- which need not be real --, as well as the possibility to become aware or not of this reaction. On a tennis court, people often express emotions following successes and failures, but many of those events only trigger reactions that have to do with something else. As for awareness, everyone probably encountered or experience a moment of anger where the person is very red and screams "I am not angry!" If you refer to 4 and 3, you can understand how giving precise names to your feelings may help you become more aware of them;

6. We can also think about the intensity of emotions. As emotions are more intense, so are the reactions -- but the twist is that not all people react the same way. Some people need to experience considerably more intense stimulations to react -- those people tend to enjoy spicy food, put a lot of condiments on their hot dogs, burgers, sandwhiches, etc. Other will be very responsive to anything. For instance, any kind of surprise can severly startle them. For one person, a small tear can be like someone else crying a river -- keep that in mind when reading your opponent or yourself;

7. It is impossible to not express emotions. You cannot silence your body, but you can displace the expression from one place to another. This does suggest you should find subtle ways to express frustration or joy during a match to avoid giving too many clues to your opponent at the wrong time, but it also comes with a long term message as well. If you are clever, 7 and 5 reminds you of some relationship problems: you know, people who don't talk and end up breaking up after a huge fight over a very silly thing. A similar thing could happen on the court;

8. Emotions can distract you in a way that 1 explicits -- i.e., expressing emotions is doing something, just like paying attention to them. As such, getting very angry or very anxious during a point will impair your ability to execute tennis related tasks.


There are others. If you are interested in acquiring a finer understanding of yourself and of your reactions, I would suggest that you try to find a simple presentation of the 8 stages of socio-emotional development of Erikson. His theory have people evolve by positionning themselves between two extremes in eight stages. Interesting fact, this is the only work of psychoanalysis that Piaget did not consider to be garbage.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
These two books are cited everywhere and everyone claims to have benefited from them. For club players, these books are not useful.

The basic issue of a club player boils down to this: his/her strokes and fitness are not at the level of being sufficiently effective to bring out the advantage of good technique of the kind he sees on TV, leaving him vulnerable to the pusher, slicing hacker, or inveterate drop-shotter.

No mental strategy or winning ugly method can change this. It is just an artifact of the game. There are similar analogs in badminton and table tennis. The only ways to improve are more practice time and better fitness, which have more to do with personal circumstances than tennis.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
These two books are cited everywhere and everyone claims to have benefited from them. For club players, these books are not useful.

The basic issue of a club player boils down to this: his/her strokes and fitness are not at the level of being sufficiently effective to bring out the advantage of good technique of the kind he sees on TV, leaving him vulnerable to the pusher, slicing hacker, or inveterate drop-shotter.

No mental strategy or winning ugly method can change this. It is just an artifact of the game. There are similar analogs in badminton and table tennis. The only ways to improve are more practice time and better fitness, which have more to do with personal circumstances than tennis.
I'm a club player... it was hugely helpful.
But if you're talking about the 3.0 or 3.5 that can't get 3 balls in a row (much less put the ball where they want it), yeah, it's less helpful, but still helpful in that it gives you clarity and focus on what you're trying to accomplish.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I'm a club player... it was hugely helpful.
But if you're talking about the 3.0 or 3.5 that can't get 3 balls in a row (much less put the ball where they want it), yeah, it's less helpful, but still helpful in that it gives you clarity and focus on what you're trying to accomplish.

All the strategy that a club player needs is: 1. Hit the ball where the opponent is not 2. Don't give the opponent a short ball hanging in the middle 3. Go to the backhand of an older male opponent with a single handed backhand 4. Try a drop shot once in a while

As far as mental strength and winning ugly goes, it is usually eclipsed much earlier by lack of fitness or stamina, or boredom, for the average club player. How to play 30-40 down versus 40-30 up in the 7th game of the 3rd set is not really the issue for these players.
 

10isMaestro

Semi-Pro
All the strategy that a club player needs is: 1. Hit the ball where the opponent is not 2. Don't give the opponent a short ball hanging in the middle 3. Go to the backhand of an older male opponent with a single handed backhand 4. Try a drop shot once in a while.

What do you call a club player? From my understanding, that includes 3.0s as well as 5.0s. I would venture into saying that they do not need the same type of strategic advice because they face different challenges and have different skill sets.

As for your tips, the first one is ironically not a good tip. While forcing a player to move more before he makes contact increases the difficulty of making a good shot for them, it also often requires us to change direction. Moreover, in my experience, tennis is a game of mistakes: you are likelier to screw yourself over than to force mistakes from your opponent. A better tip would be to keep the ball cross-court from the baseline unless you can enter the court. If you are an adept of moving into the court, the best tip is to keep the ball in front of you unless you have an easier ball because that's how you make your next shot easier by cutting down angles. Obviously, the need to do more might arise as you get up the playing ranks.

The second tip is also problematic given the prevalance of the "pusher problem." Drawing in an opponent who is not comfortable with their transition game or their net game might actually be good since a ton of low and mid level players have less problem moving sideways than forward.

The third tip is a classic, I must concede. We can however at time need to make an adjustment if a player is really good at running around that backhand or hit stunning slices. For some people, just hitting deep to the forehand corner makes them less formidable -- because they got into such an habit of hitting big inside forehands to cope with their backhand issues, for instance.

The fourth tip is a bit imprecise to my taste. It's great to hit a drop shot when two conditions are met: (1) your opponent is really far from the net and (2) you are in an offensive position. That is true for anyone who can hit a half decent drop shot. The more general idea here is that if you have to try to hurt your opponent, you force them to stay honest with their court coverage -- it's close to your first tip, but as I tried to show this is harder than just trying to limit your own failures. Those (1 and 4) are better tips for more advanced players who are at a point where they need to be annoying to get points.
 
Loehr managed to combine the twin societal forces of (1) the tennis boom and (2) the hippie rejection of all things related to work and effort to ascend to the top of the bestseller charts.

Gilbert managed to combine honest self-analysis and careful observation of the results of tactical choices to ascend to #4 in the world with limited talent.

Your mileage may vary, but only one of them is actually a tennis book.

I think Gallaway was the author of Inner Tennis....
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Winning Ugly was fun to read - can't say that I care enough to bother implementing it like a bible though. I can see might help you eek out more matches at your particular level though. Problem is soon as this happens you get bumped up a level and 'outperform' your strokes? Do you want to outperform your strokes - or do you want to get better strokes and play better tennis from a technical standpoint.

Most people long term want the second - not the first. I'd kinda hate to get bumped up alot and have to scrap and claw for every point. Like most rec players i like hitting aces, winners, hitting shots that FEEL good.. Gilbert's game was all about winning at all costs - understandable since he was a pro. But rec players have a cost - fun.

I looked at the inner game of tennis in the bookstore. Seems like psychobabble self help crap - sorry. Sure some people swear by it - but same can be said for Dianetics.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
Winning Ugly was fun to read - can't say that I care enough to bother implementing it like a bible though. I can see might help you eek out more matches at your particular level though. Problem is soon as this happens you get bumped up a level and 'outperform' your strokes? Do you want to outperform your strokes - or do you want to get better strokes and play better tennis from a technical standpoint.

Most people long term want the second - not the first. I'd kinda hate to get bumped up alot and have to scrap and claw for every point. Like most rec players i like hitting aces, winners, hitting shots that FEEL good.. Gilbert's game was all about winning at all costs - understandable since he was a pro. But rec players have a cost - fun.

While I agree in principle with what you are saying, the opposite can be true as well: i.e. one cant do art for the sake of the art, forever. And at least some of the fun gets taken out when you start loosing to people who are much weaker then you from a technical standpoint, but who might be better competitors/strategists/movers.
 

PMChambers

Hall of Fame
I got both in Audible version, but never listened to either. (I have listened to 40 minute of the Inner Game, but it's really just the intro). I suppose if anyone interested, they could get either for free on Audible, just use the free book deal and cancel the subscription before end of the month. Kind of the lazy man's reading. Agassi Bio is also available. Some come with "Whisper Sync" so can sync the written book to the audible book now Kindle (Amazon) owns Audible.
 

sundaypunch

Hall of Fame
Winning Ugly was fun to read - can't say that I care enough to bother implementing it like a bible though. I can see might help you eek out more matches at your particular level though. Problem is soon as this happens you get bumped up a level and 'outperform' your strokes? Do you want to outperform your strokes - or do you want to get better strokes and play better tennis from a technical standpoint.

Most people long term want the second - not the first. I'd kinda hate to get bumped up alot and have to scrap and claw for every point. Like most rec players i like hitting aces, winners, hitting shots that FEEL good.. Gilbert's game was all about winning at all costs - understandable since he was a pro. But rec players have a cost - fun.

It really has nothing to do with strokes or level. It's about doing the best with what you have. That applies whether you are a hacker or a pro.

I don't think the book is a tennis bible but for some reason many people have the impression that it is about junk balling or playing ugly tennis. Everything in the book applies just as much once you get the better strokes you mention.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
What do you call a club player? From my understanding, that includes 3.0s as well as 5.0s. I would venture into saying that they do not need the same type of strategic advice because they face different challenges and have different skill sets.

As for your tips, the first one is ironically not a good tip. While forcing a player to move more before he makes contact increases the difficulty of making a good shot for them, it also often requires us to change direction. Moreover, in my experience, tennis is a game of mistakes: you are likelier to screw yourself over than to force mistakes from your opponent. A better tip would be to keep the ball cross-court from the baseline unless you can enter the court. If you are an adept of moving into the court, the best tip is to keep the ball in front of you unless you have an easier ball because that's how you make your next shot easier by cutting down angles. Obviously, the need to do more might arise as you get up the playing ranks.

The second tip is also problematic given the prevalance of the "pusher problem." Drawing in an opponent who is not comfortable with their transition game or their net game might actually be good since a ton of low and mid level players have less problem moving sideways than forward.

The third tip is a classic, I must concede. We can however at time need to make an adjustment if a player is really good at running around that backhand or hit stunning slices. For some people, just hitting deep to the forehand corner makes them less formidable -- because they got into such an habit of hitting big inside forehands to cope with their backhand issues, for instance.

The fourth tip is a bit imprecise to my taste. It's great to hit a drop shot when two conditions are met: (1) your opponent is really far from the net and (2) you are in an offensive position. That is true for anyone who can hit a half decent drop shot. The more general idea here is that if you have to try to hurt your opponent, you force them to stay honest with their court coverage -- it's close to your first tip, but as I tried to show this is harder than just trying to limit your own failures. Those (1 and 4) are better tips for more advanced players who are at a point where they need to be annoying to get points.

I don't think 5.0s are club players.

Other tips have exceptions of course. Like hitting to where the opponent is starting from rather than away (going behind), players unable to put away short balls etc.

But the books are about mental stuff. Unlike juniors whose personality can be shaped by tennis, adult players bring their personality to the court. They cannot change it for a while and then get back to their old selves. And way before the mental limitations kick in, physical and technique limitations have already kicked in.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
And at least some of the fun gets taken out when you start loosing to people who are much weaker then you from a technical standpoint, but who might be better competitors/strategists/movers.

That is exactly right. It is the classic dilemma of a rec player in a racket sport. Till a certain level, technique does not guarantee a win. And most rec players will die before they cross that level. At the pro level, someone like Santoro was called a magician by Sampras but Sampras was the one with 14 Slams. But a club Santoro could be the club Sampras if he wants to.
 

weelie

Professional
I have enjoyed Inner game of tennis and Winning Ugly. If I were to choose one classic only, I would take the Inner game. Winning ugly is a fun read, but it is not perfect, does not cover it all etc. On the other hand, Inner game is such a classic, everybody ought to read it. :)

I also have and prefer Braden's Mental Tennis and my favourite is The best tennis of your life. Because it is in chapters of two pages... so I pick it up here and there, read a chapter and just think of how I can apply it.
 
The two address different aspects of the same entity. They are thereby complementary in nature. One does not exist, nor is it relevant, without the other.
 

Gazelle

G.O.A.T.
Since I'd rather lose pretty than win ugly, I don't think I'll ever read Brad's book. Winning at all costs is for people that make money off the game, not for rec players that find enjoyment in just seeing their strokes improve.

The title is a bit misleading. It's more 'winning smart' than 'winning ugly'.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
I don't think 5.0s are club players.
tell that to the 5.0's that play at my club :p... too bad i can't use your definition to relinquish the court to me (i.e you're not a club player so please get off this club court)
but the bulk (like 80%) of club players are 3.0-3.5
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
tell that to the 5.0's that play at my club :p... too bad i can't use your definition to relinquish the court to me (i.e you're not a club player so please get off this club court)
but the bulk (like 80%) of club players are 3.0-3.5

I used to belong to a club with clay courts where Lindsay Davenport used to practice before the European clay season. I guess she is also a club player then.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
I used to belong to a club with clay courts where Lindsay Davenport used to practice before the European clay season. I guess she is also a club player then.

We had Harrison Ford and Vlasic Pospisil at our club recently. Drastically different skill levels but playing at a club nonetheless.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
I used to belong to a club with clay courts where Lindsay Davenport used to practice before the European clay season. I guess she is also a club player then.
that day she was.
she was slummin with us club players.

point is that using "club players" to denote a certain level of players is ambiguous. ntrp/utr/etc... ratings are a better way to target a group of players at a particular level when making a blanket statement.
 

bitcoinoperated

Hall of Fame
Most players seldom make it past the 3.5/4.0 level anyway...

While true, if I never make it past 4.0 I'd like to at least hit proper strokes. For other people I guess winning is more important to them than this though and I do understand that - we all have personal goals and reasons for playing.
 

Big_Dangerous

Talk Tennis Guru
While true, if I never make it past 4.0 I'd like to at least hit proper strokes. For other people I guess winning is more important to them than this though and I do understand that - we all have personal goals and reasons for playing.

Well I mean how do you define a level of skill/talent without some level of success? Like you take a pro player and say he's losing a ton of matches at the ATP world tour level so his ranking is dropping, and he's not qualifying for main draws at events. Conventional wisdom would dictate that he or she might need to go down to the Challenger and Satellite level to play more of those events to get their confidence back and get their ranking back up. Similar thing at the rec level. Some seasons you might be 3.5, some 4.0, and maybe if you keep at it and work hard enough, you can work your way up to a 4.5 or 5.0 level.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
It really has nothing to do with strokes or level. It's about doing the best with what you have. That applies whether you are a hacker or a pro.

I don't think the book is a tennis bible but for some reason many people have the impression that it is about junk balling or playing ugly tennis. Everything in the book applies just as much once you get the better strokes you mention.

it has everything to do with strokes and level. As a thought experiment imagine the smartest possible player. This man/woman always makes the percentage choice. He picks the percentage right side for the sun. He uses perfectly legal but annoying gamesmanship. (Warms up with a hitter before the match - does give his opponent a good warmup..etc) He can instantly weigh not only what shot would work on his opponent - but he can pick the best shot among all the possible shots he could hit with a given ball and picks that one. He isn't a 'super' player - as he is average this shot might often be a dink up the middle..

But this person is the smartest possible player. Well - this guy if he is low level (say under 5.0) not only plays smart - I guarantee he plays damn ugly.
 

BaddJordan

New User
Would rather just do meditation/mindfulness than keep reading inner game. Dribbled on about self 1 and 2 for far too long.
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
Q: 'The Inner Game of Tennis' and 'Winning Ugly' - Who uses them?

A: Ugly men and women who win.
 
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