The J011yroger Guide to Racquet Selection.

I am one of the old guys back in the game and shopping again after 20 years - my demo list just got longer! Good stuff - and all of the stuff a seasoned player should already know, IMHO, but it is good to read it anyway.
 
Good thread, Jolly. Reading it I kept thinking, "What's that brief paragraph of NBMJ's?" So I searched and found it. I think he sums up the "What stick to play with?" question quite well with...

The key is to find the heaviest racquet you can swing fast enough for as long as your sessions last when playing someone as least as good as you. You should also find something with a sweetspot large enough that you can reliably hit.

And as much as I *hate* demo-ing rackets, I must admit the solution is to try a bunch -- even some which are completely "out of pattern" for what you've been told to try. Narrow the list with conscientious (smart, systematic) demos. Eventually you'll be hitting with "Stick L" and realizing you wished you had "Stick G" back in your hand. Then you'll notice this is happening with Stick O, P and Q. (Guess what?) You've realized "G" is your favorite.

- KK (who hates demo-ing)
 
Kaptain Karl said:
Good thread, Jolly. Reading it I kept thinking, "What's that brief paragraph of NBMJ's?" So I searched and found it. I think he sums up the "What stick to play with?" question quite well with...

The key is to find the heaviest racquet you can swing fast enough for as long as your sessions last when playing someone as least as good as you. You should also find something with a sweetspot large enough that you can reliably hit.


- KK (who hates demo-ing)
Click to expand...

Thanks KK. I think there is a beauty in simplicity and that we're often guilty of over processing. If a person knows their ideal swingweight range, lots of other elements are <often> automatically taken care of. I think many make racquet selection more difficult than it needs to be....generally, i think people should buy something reasonable and learn how to use it and STICK WITH IT...dont expect to buy a better serve for example other than by spending the money on lessons. until someone hits the 4.5's or so, their improvement is going to come far more from improvements in technique rather than purchasing more gear unless they are using something not appropriate for their level of play. changing gear often quite usually causes delays in improvement rather than speeding up improvement

I think J-Man did a great job in detailing racquet selection, and that it mirrors the messages I've been sending around here for a long time.

Tennis ain;t an easy game to play, and i think it's crazy to stuff yourself by the wrong choice in gear......but we know that people play tennis for a variety of reasons which sometimes don't include winning or playing to the best of their ability.

Now to simplify the string selection process ;)
 
Kaptain Karl said:
Of course I'd love it if a guideline could be expressed as cogently as you did with frames. Go for it!

- KK
Click to expand...

ok done.....

I would like to add one thing on the subject of racquet selection.

Occured to me that many people judge the performance of a racquet by what the ball is doing in the air. What is most important is what the ball is doing on the other side of the shot....after the bounce. does the serve jump? does the slice have good ball speed? do volleys penetrate the court? etc etc

Lots of racquets hit a real perty ball in the air but dont do much after the bounce. of course this is critical when evaluating a string...a ball spinning crazily in the air isnt so good if it hits the court and just sits there saying 'Please thump me'
 
NoBadMojo said:
Lots of racquets hit a real perty ball in the air but dont do much after the bounce. of course this is critical when evaluating a string...a ball spinning crazily in the air isnt so good if it hits the court and just sits there saying 'Please thump me'
Click to expand...

I refer to this as the amount of "carry" that the ball has on it (I really haven't heard of a better word describing how much the ball goes backward after the bounce), and it is a HUGE problem I have with many juniors. They are hitting TOO MUCH TOPSPIN and their balls are landing inside the court, and even if they land deep they just sit up instead of pushing their opponents back. And while they can get away with this against some players, as soon as they run into a big hitter, they are just putting the ball up on a tee and all they are going to be doing is walking back to the fence to pick up the balls that just got smoked by them for winners.

The same also applies to people who don't grasp the concept that their ball is landing where it runs out of steam and drops to the ground. Their ball has zero carry on it. They don't need a less powerful racquet, they need to learn how to hit a tennis ball. Let me say that again, if your ball goes out of bounds at 4mph, you don't need less power.

Just like how there is nothing in the world I like hitting against than a good solid 4.0 players topspin or kick serve, where they really grasp the concept of how to hit the kicker, and their technique is pretty solid, but they just dont have the horsepower to get that nasty kick on it, so I end up returning a chest/shoulder high ball, with good top on it from about a foot inside the baseline. Usually I put the first two in the seats, then when I groove the speed I return them a good 20-30mph faster than they come in.

J
 
J011yroger said:
I refer to this as the amount of "carry" that the ball has on it (I really haven't heard of a better word describing how much the ball goes backward after the bounce), and it is a HUGE problem I have with many juniors. They are hitting TOO MUCH TOPSPIN and their balls are landing inside the court, and even if they land deep they just sit up instead of pushing their opponents back. And while they can get away with this against some players, as soon as they run into a big hitter, they are just putting the ball up on a tee and all they are going to be doing is walking back to the fence to pick up the balls that just got smoked by them for winners.

The same also applies to people who don't grasp the concept that their ball is landing where it runs out of steam and drops to the ground. Their ball has zero carry on it. They don't need a less powerful racquet, they need to learn how to hit a tennis ball. Let me say that again, if your ball goes out of bounds at 4mph, you don't need less power.

Just like how there is nothing in the world I like hitting against than a good solid 4.0 players topspin or kick serve, where they really grasp the concept of how to hit the kicker, and their technique is pretty solid, but they just dont have the horsepower to get that nasty kick on it, so I end up returning a chest/shoulder high ball, with good top on it from about a foot inside the baseline. Usually I put the first two in the seats, then when I groove the speed I return them a good 20-30mph faster than they come in.

J
Click to expand...

Think we're now interweaving 'technique' with racquet selection. I wasnt very clear earlier, but i assumed we were talking about evaluating racquets perhaps in a side by side environ. many seem to pay more attention to what the ball does in the air rather than after the bounce when comparing racquets.

An example is the T10MP gen2 frame...hit a lovely looking ball in the air for me. oozed ball feel. huge sweetspot. very comfortable.....didnt do much for me after the bounce however, so onward to the next frame

Think you are discussing technique issues, and I think these Juniors you are mentioning would do the same thing with most any racquet. That's why I say that if you are anything less than a 4.5, just pick reasonable gear and learn how to use it. you'll get your improvement by being a better tennis player and not by trying to buy a better game <that rarely works>. lots of racquet and gear changing often delays or impedes development rather than aiding development

another thought is to avoid the temptation to buy a frame thinking it will help a weakness. same deal..best to work on your game to improve your weakness. if anything, the better choice is to usually buy a frame which is good at everything but best supports your strength(s)
 
Craig A. Clark said:
Amen. Right on. The FIRST step is to emphasize your STRENGTHS. As Agassi once said, "If I am executing my game plan, it really doesn't matter if they know it's coming." ;) CC
Click to expand...

I second that emotion. Like when a guy told me my serve was very easy to read.

My reply was "They can read it all they want as long as they don't start getting it back."

J
 
NoBadMojo said:
Think we're now interweaving 'technique' with racquet selection. I wasnt very clear earlier, but i assumed we were talking about evaluating racquets perhaps in a side by side environ. many seem to pay more attention to what the ball does in the air rather than after the bounce when comparing racquets.
Click to expand...

Yea, I dig what you are saying, I suppose if you understand that it is a problem, as you do, then you will choose appropriate gear and or modify your technique, whereas if you do not realize it is a problem then you wont.

J
 
J011yroger said:
Oh no, I am no 3.5/4.0, I am 1.5, recently learned that you hold the handle end of the racquet, not the stringed end. Improved my consistency greatly, and clarified how people break strings at the same time. In the past whenever someone told me they broke their string I always thought to myself, "Man, these guys must have strong fingers.". And this just after I learned that the fuzz on the tennis ball in fact has nothing to do with velcro!


.

J
Click to expand...

obviously this is a sensitive subject for you, I mean no offence, many of sports greatest minds belong to mediocre players.I am a mediocre player myself, I'm just wondering what you're doing coaching juniors?
 
BeHappy said:
obviously this is a sensitive subject for you, I mean no offence, many of sports greatest minds belong to mediocre players.I am a mediocre player myself, I'm just wondering what you're doing coaching juniors?
Click to expand...

I apologize, I thought you were just trying to be a jerk. Before I hurt my wrist and missed 4 months of tournaments I was in the top 10 Mens Open in my section. My goals for 2008 will include top 5 in my section, and top 50 in the country. And I will be playing 3 possibly all 4 Category I National Championships in 08.

I teach part time to pay for my playing, strings and entry fees mostly.

I really don't want to derail this thread, but wouldn't mind carrying on this conversation via e-mail, or in another thread.

J
 
hmm jollyroger, that whole "carry" or "penetration" thing,
does that have anything to do with your racket? or is it pure technique?
 
herosol said:
hmm jollyroger, that whole "carry" or "penetration" thing, does that have anything to do with your racket? or is it pure technique?
Click to expand...
I know you didn't ask this of me ... but I'd say "both". The frame can certainly contribute to or take away from the amount penetration/weight of your shots. But my (unscientific) guess would be the contributions are about 80/20 (technique/equipment). And that 20% for the equipment is the most I'd say it contributes....

- KK
 
herosol said:
hmm jollyroger, that whole "carry" or "penetration" thing,
does that have anything to do with your racket? or is it pure technique?
Click to expand...

I think it depends on someones' playing level. If someone isnt good and has chosen some reasonable racquet it may be 95% technique and 5% racquet choice. Lower level players shouldnt concern themselves with things like hitting a heavy ball, they should concern themselves with reliably hitting balls between the net and back fence ;)

If someone is an advanced player, they likely have made a reasonable racquet choice and that's where the relatively minour differences in gear come into play and are very important. Example: If a better player finds a racquet which he can be more offensive with and have no loss of control, he may be able to put more balls away, get the opponent on his horse a few times more in the course of a match, hit the TBone with a serve that slides away, picks up a couple more cheap points, all those things are meaningful because the better you get, the more important those little things become....the better you get, the more difficult it is to improve

There can always be exceptions
 
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herosol said:
hmm jollyroger, that whole "carry" or "penetration" thing,
does that have anything to do with your racket? or is it pure technique?
Click to expand...

Yes, it has to do with the racquet, but really it has to do with choosing the right racquet for you, not so much a general characteristic of the racquet.

It all starts with technique and ability. Provided that you know what you want to accomplish and have taken appropriate steps to get that carry on your ball.

Lets have an example. 2 players. Me and my friend, we will call him Norman.

I play leaded 90" wilsons, I have hellish batspeed, hit extremely heavy pace and topspin. When I hit the PDR+, I found my balls to be light and spinny, and not have nearly the weight of my normal ball when I am playing my Wilsons. I got the sensation that I was "Maxing Out" the PDR+.

Norman on the other hand, hits a good topspin ball, but is not blessed with my batspeed. When Norman hits the PDR+ he hits a nice weighty topspin ball, but when Norman borrows one of my Wilsons, his ball has nothing on it, no pace, no spin, no nothing.

Now, my ball with the PRD+ has more pace and spin than Norman's ball with the PDR+ and that will always be the case no matter what the racquet. But I hit better with the wilson than the babolat, and he hits better with the babolat than the wilson.

So it is about finding the right racquet for you. Granted as Mojo said, this is all pretty high level fine tuning. There is nothing wrong with hitting a light ball, you just need to flatten it out enough to get it through the court.

***Note***
Norman is a fictional character, and is not based on anyone in particular, but his attributes can be applied to a vast number of players out there. I do exist, and have conducted this experiment with the PDR+ and my wilsons.

J
 
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NoBadMojo said:
I think it depends on someones' playing level. If someone isnt good and has chosen some reasonable racquet it may be 95% technique and 5% racquet choice. Lower level players shouldnt concern themselves with things like hitting a heavy ball, they should concern themselves with reliably hitting balls between the net and back fence ;)

If someone is an advanced player, they likely have made a reasonable racquet choice and that's where the relatively minour differences in gear come into play and are very important. Example: If a better player finds a racquet which he can be more offensive with and have no loss of control, he may be able to put more balls away, get the opponent on his horse a few times more in the course of a match, hit the TBone with a serve that slides away, picks up a couple more cheap points, all those things are meaningful because the better you get, the more important those little things become....the better you get, the more difficult it is to improve

There can always be exceptions
Click to expand...

Mojo-Nator,

This may be your best post on the matter. ;)

Clear, cogent, and dead on the money. Especially important is this phrase:

..............If a better player finds a racquet which he can be more offensive with and have no loss of control, he may be able to put more balls away, get the opponent on his horse a few times more in the course of a match, hit the TBone with a serve that slides away, picks up a couple more cheap points, all those things are meaningful because the better you get, the more important those little things become...............

CC
 
J011yroger said:
Yes, it has to do with the racquet, but really it has to do with choosing the right racquet for you, not so much a general characteristic of the racquet.I]

J
Click to expand...


This thread has (finally) boiled down the key issues without any undue animosity that might distract the casual reader. ;)

'....choosing the right racquet frame FOR YOU, NOT so much a GENERAL CHARACTERISTIC OF THE RACQUET....'

THIS should be a sticky. ;)

CC
 
Craig A. Clark said:
Mojo-Nator,

This may be your best post on the matter. ;)

Clear, cogent, and dead on the money. Especially important is this phrase:

..............If a better player finds a racquet which he can be more offensive with and have no loss of control, he may be able to put more balls away, get the opponent on his horse a few times more in the course of a match, hit the TBone with a serve that slides away, picks up a couple more cheap points, all those things are meaningful because the better you get, the more important those little things become...............

CC
Click to expand...

thanks Craigster! appreciated...hope you like your day. Mojo
 
If This thread (OP) is a great post, then we should close down this forum section (Racquets) and just leave this one sticky.

And all folks here should leave and hit the court with whatever they have (like).

Good Days !

:D

ps.
i hit the court today, forget about how the racket feel, how it should be heavier or lighter...
found myself a little late, but focus mainly in hitting the ball out with a smooth strokes. It works !
 
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J011y - when/where's the string guide?

I have found the racket, now I feel I have an even tougher decision (and more money to spend) picking out a string!
 
Nice job:grin: . I just read the entire thread & agree with your views. I also liked the way you clearly addressed some ongoing topics of debate. Hopefully this upgrades the quality of posts in the Racquet section of the message boards (less bickering, fewer cheap shots & fewer repeat questions).

You might want to post a link to a quick summary of your conclusions for young impatient readers.
 
And for you old impatient ones... :P

Excellent guide. I've read through it a few times now, and found it very helpful. Everyone should read it before posting in the racquet section!
 
ClimbK2 said:
Nice job:grin: . I just read the entire thread & agree with your views. I also liked the way you clearly addressed some ongoing topics of debate. Hopefully this upgrades the quality of posts in the Racquet section of the message boards (less bickering, fewer cheap shots & fewer repeat questions).

You might want to post a link to a quick summary of your conclusions for young impatient readers.
Click to expand...

That was one of the reasons I wrote it, so I could just save time and tell ppl to just read the guide :)

J
 
adams_1 said:
And for you old impatient ones... :P

Excellent guide. I've read through it a few times now, and found it very helpful. Everyone should read it before posting in the racquet section!
Click to expand...

Would be cool if it were mandatory, like a terms and agreements thing where you had to check a little box verifying that you had read the JRGtRS before you were allowed to post.

J
 
J011yroger said:
Would be cool if it were mandatory, like a terms and agreements thing where you had to check a little box verifying that you had read the JRGtRS before you were allowed to post.

J
Click to expand...

it's a good guide but i doubt that will happen
 
J011yroger thanks for the great post it was very helpful. As some what of a newbie I have always wondered what racquet I really should be playing and I have tried several.

I would love to pick your brain when you have time about the racquet I am currently playing and if I should be looking at something else.

Thanks.
 
totally just saw the sticky! read the first 3 pages completely through, then skipped to last page. great great post. i still have delusions of growing into a racket thats too good for me,haha. iam even thinking about leading it up. but the matter of the fact is it's me, not the racket. good reminder.
 
Thanks for the props, hope I can attend one of your chapter meetings in the spring when I come down to visit Jeff from Hi-Tech tennis.

J
 
Topaz; said:
Jollyroger is seven feet tall!
Click to expand...


Yes, I've heard. Serves aces by the hundreds. And if HE were here, he'd consume the chapter with fireballs from his forehand, and bolts of lightning from his backhand.

J
 
J011yroger said:
Yes, I've heard. Serves aces by the hundreds. And if HE were here, he'd consume the chapter with fireballs from his forehand, and bolts of lightning from his backhand.

J
Click to expand...

What? Hunh?! How did you do that? *laughing* Where did I say you were 7 feet tall?!?
 
you can make the quotes say whatever you want, that is why there is that little > thing next to the persons name, so you can click it and go back to the post to see if that is what they wrote or not.

J
 
Hunh...you know, it never occured to me to try that...heh heh heh! And I never noticed that > before either! Well, you learn something every day!
 
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