powerangle
Legend
Yup, Nadal can launch himself to the top of this list if he has another stellar clay court season this year (RG being the main necessity, and any other MS tournament to further support his position).
The jury of L'Equipe voted Nadal - the best clay court player of the Open Era
- Thread starter CMM
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jack_kramer
Banned
It was a close call but I gave the edge to Wilander because he seemed more of a natural on clay and won RG at 17 y.o. (he beat Lendl en route in the 4th rd).
Lendl suffered another embarrassing loss to a 17 y.o. Michael Chang who was suffering from severe leg cramps but still managed to outwit and psychologically own him in '89
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeVVp2h7DB4
jean pierre
Professional
jack_kramer
Banned
Vilas won his only RG title in '77 because Borg couldn't play that year due to World Team Tennis contract. He was badly exposed the following year with a 6-1, 6-1, 6-3 drubbing at the hands of Borg. I also took depth of field into account.
Ralph
Hall of Fame
Yes, it is. Deserved too, his ability on this surface is phenomenal.
TennisFan3
Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal started out as an offensive player, so that's hardly surprising.
To this day, I wonder why Nadal switched from his teenage game, where he was half the size he is now, but still hit 95 mph groundies with ease. The reverse swing buggy whip and the spin has F**ed his game on hard courts.
Xemi666
Professional
Nadal dosn't need more clay masters (even though he'll probably win mroe" to support anything, he already has more of the important non-FO clay court titles than anyone else, including Borg.
Xemi666
Professional
You don't think Muster would be as badly owned by Borg and Nadal on clay? Federer is an excellent claycourter too and he was destroyed by Nadal in 2008, but that's just because Nadal is so good, not a demerit in Federer's part. I think the same aplies to Vilas, Borg and Nadal are just monsters on clay.
jack_kramer
Banned
Muster in his prime probably wouldn't lose 6-1, 6-1, 6-3 to Nadal. That's just my guess. Plus, he was a lefty too.
Federer missed my top 10 list at #11.
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Xemi666
Professional
Do you think Federer was in his prime in 2008 or already a bit past his prime?
Who do you consider a better claycourter, Federer or Muster? Federer has 3 FO finals in addition to his FO title. Muster has only 1 FO and no additional finals. And in Masters titles they're similar, 4 to 5 I believe?
I think Muster (or any player for that matter, except Borg) would get destroyed on clay by 2008 Nadal.
Tennis sensation
Legend
Uncle Toni rated Rafa second.
cucio
Legend
Absolutely, Federer is a joke compared to all-time clay masters (incidentally American) Courier and Agassi.
Tennis sensation
Legend
How could they miss the Current TW GOAT of GOATs and currently the best player of the entire Milky Way- Novak Djokovic :wink:
aldeayeah
G.O.A.T.
jean pierre
Professional
Vilas won 1 FO and 1 USO on clay + 3 finals ine FO + won all the big tournaments on clay (Monte-Carlo, Rome, Madrid). I think he's much better than Muster and Kuerten.
dlk
Hall of Fame
Yeah, surprised Fed is not ahead of Muster with the stats you provided.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
cant vote for particular players with the idea of what they woudlve achieved if some factors were different.
1) Villas would've won 0 French Opens if it wasn't for Borg's absence in 1977
2) Federer would've won at least 2 more French Opens if it wasn't for Nadal playing in the same era
Btw why is Rosewall not in the conversation? He was the absolute best clay courter for 10 years (even the great Laver couldn't touch him)! It's double standards for me, if we're voting based on achievements only (disregarding the technology, training etc.) Rosewall is up there with Borg and Nadal or even higher. If we're NOT considering racquet technology, then it's Nadal hands down, Federer and Kuerten come next and the rest is rubbish.
1) Villas would've won 0 French Opens if it wasn't for Borg's absence in 1977
2) Federer would've won at least 2 more French Opens if it wasn't for Nadal playing in the same era
Btw why is Rosewall not in the conversation? He was the absolute best clay courter for 10 years (even the great Laver couldn't touch him)! It's double standards for me, if we're voting based on achievements only (disregarding the technology, training etc.) Rosewall is up there with Borg and Nadal or even higher. If we're NOT considering racquet technology, then it's Nadal hands down, Federer and Kuerten come next and the rest is rubbish.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
You can't say because Federer was in his prime he was supposed to win. Remember what happened in 2002 Hamburg? Yes, not only Federer won but bageled Kuerten ON CLAY. Mind you, Federer was still far from what was to come and Kuerten was the THEN French Open champion. It doesn't go one way or another.
jean pierre
Professional
1) Who knows ? Maybe Vilas beats Borg in 1977. Tennis is not an exact science. And if history was different, maybe Vilas lost in 1977 and won in 1982 ! And maybe, if Vilas wasn't sick during the French in 1980, he would have beaten Borg (he beated him a few days before un Dusseldorf) !
No, Vilas was basically a lesser version of Borg who didn't have the variety to beat Borg on clay like a Panatta, who was clearly extremely talented in many aspects, much more than Vilas. Panatta had the ability to close the net, play power, and defense when he was on, not to mention his solid serving ability. Basically when Panatta was on he was almost unplayable (similar to Nastase).
jean pierre
Professional
OK, but head to head Vilas / Panatta is 7-2 for Vilas.
Sentinel
Bionic Poster
LOL, We can forgive him for being biased in favor of his nephew.
Tennis sensation
Legend
So Senti, on a serious note, don't you think Djokovic should have been given the Top spot because of the fabulous HC reign he has had this year.
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Povl Carstensen
Legend
That Federer ranks so high in his least favourite surface underlines his status as overall goat.
Tennis sensation
Legend
What if Almagro or Ferrer win FO this year? Will he become the Greatest Clay courter of all time?
PSNELKE
Legend
Sure, since Almugro and Ferrer already have 5 Roland Garros titles, 13 masters titles in their bags.
The only competitor for that award would be Borg also with 5 Roland Garros titles.
but with another title there I don´t think there´s any doubt about him beeing the Greatest CCourter of all time.
Sure, someone else could win there this year, but I´m pretty sure he will win it this year again.
Pozarevacka
Banned
You guys do understand L'Equipe is just a newspaper. It's like if I told you the New York Times selected Ralph messiah to all of humankind, does that really hold much meaning?
PSNELKE
Legend
The comments on here are based on achievements and facts.
Nobody gives a crap about that gutter press.
borg number one
Legend
Borg has a total of six French Open titles, won between 1974-1981. Many consider Rosewall, Borg, and now Nadal to be the greatest clay courters ever. I do agree that Nadal will remain competitive at Roland Garros for the next several years.
Sentinel
Bionic Poster
Yes, I would finally begin to take notice of Rafa's saintly qualities. I would put aside my pathological hatred for the superb Spaniard and become his biggest fan. I would root out all Fed fans from this forum and initiate a reign of tyranny and terror so that Federer or Novak's names are never again uttered here.
PSNELKE
Legend
Damn, forgot about the 1981 one.
Yeah your right, but considering Ralph is still veery young so I think it should be possible to win even more than 6 titles at the FO and a few more masters titles.
I think at the end of his career he should be named the "best clay court player of all times".
Borg retired at a young age of 26 and would sure have one or two titles more there but I think Ralph´s succes is a little superior to Borg´s.
I don´t get why Roswell is considered as one of the best clay courter´s since he played something like a milion years on the senior tour?
And I don´t remember any true rival except of Pancho Gonzalez and maybe Laver who wasn´t really that good on clay but still managed to win 2 titles at the FO.
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0d1n
Hall of Fame
jackson vile
G.O.A.T.
Simply amazing what Borg was able to achieve.
illuminati
Rookie
i think this debate if finally over.
nadal is now officially the clay GOAT.
nadal is now officially the clay GOAT.
Apparently he thinks 6 are not enough and has to win another RG title in order to be proclaimed clay goat. :roll:
brickner_damage
Banned
Nadal has a shot at that, we'll see.
marcub 2.0
New User
I'm no Ralph fan and really liked Guga but neither Ralph nor Borg would have anything to fear from an on-fire guga.
marcub 2.0
New User
Like another American used to say - you cannot be serious!
The ONLY top-tier American among the true greats (and not talking clay here) is Sampras. If anyone has seen Tilden play we can make a case for that too.
jackson vile
G.O.A.T.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
It all boiled down to Nadal for Fed. With Rafa out of the way, Fed would've pretty much won all the finals he got to and become the greatest clay courter and the GOAT.It makes sense that Nadal and Borg are in first and second place, separated by only 4 points, and I'm perfectly happy to see Federer at 7th place.
He may not have won a lot of clay tournaments in comparison to some guys on the list but he's reached plenty of finals, and of those he lost (11) he avoided straight set losses in 6 of them.
Plus the eventual French Open victory helps
Good thing there's Rafa to keep it interesting! :troll:
brickner_damage
Banned
I wonder what would have happened if all those clay-court specialists of the 90s were in the 2000s. Now THAT would be interesting. I think Nadal is better than all of them including Guga, Moya and Muster. But I suspect Federer would have some trouble. Sampras sure did.
No denying Nadal is above those guys. But don't make them out to be chumps. They will give nadalvery bit of trouble they would have to federer. Rafa won't be sweeping clay seasons like taking a walk in the park that's for sure.
brickner_damage
Banned
Likewise, I wonder which clay suits Nadal more, 90s or current..
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