The King is Dead! Long Live the King!

T

TennisBatman

Semi-Pro
That is a saying we are all familiar with, especially this year...

Roger Federer defeated Novak Djokovic 7-6 6-3 3-6 7-6 today.

How many times has Federer played Djokovic in a grand slam match? According to the ATP site, they have played 7 times in a grand slam match...8 including today.

2011 French Open, Federer 7-6 6-3 3-6 7-6
2011 Australian Open, Djokovic 7-6(3), 7-5, 6-4
2010 US Open, Djokovic 5-7, 6-1, 5-7, 6-2, 7-5
2009 US Open, Federer 7-6(3), 7-5, 7-5
2008 US Open, Federer 6-3, 5-7, 7-5, 6-2
2008 Australian Open, Djokovic 7-5, 6-3, 7-6(5)
2007 US Open, Federer 7-6(4), 7-6(2), 6-4
2007 Australian Open, Federer 6-2, 7-5, 6-3

Time and again, Federer keeps proving that Djokovic doesn't have the grand-slam caliber game to go toe-to-toe with the two great players of this tennis era, even when all of the odds are against him, like they were in so many matches in the past.

Their grand slam record is now 5-3, with Federer in the lead. When will Djokovic get another chance to take a step towards evening the score?

Only time will tell, but with a 29-year-old Federer showing very little signs of age, one can only ask whether Djokovic can take those chances before either Federer retires, or he himself retires from burnout, trying to chase the two dominant players of this era...
 
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Nole might get a few more slam wins on Rog before he retires.

Most probably at the AO or USO.

I get your point, though.

The slams are a different animal.
 
What today proved is simply that Djokovic doesn't give Federer the same kinds of problems Nadal does. As great a player as he is, if Federer is on, he's the favorite in their matches. Hard, flat shots don't bother him too much...especially over 5 sets.

I had another thought today; Djokovic, right now, is a better player than Agassi ever was. Agassi had equally great ground strokes and return of serve, but he never moved even half as well as Djokovic does. Plus, Djokovic has a better serve.

And Federer has a pretty good head to head with him, despite the large age difference. I think that should be mentioned in any comparisons between Sampras and Federer. People mention that Sampras had a winning H2H against his biggest rival, as opposed to Federer with Nadal. Well, Federer matches up well with a player who is pretty clearly better than Agassi...so it would seem to me that Sampras was just fortunate not to have a Nadal type in his era. Of course, it's still unlikely Sampras would have won enough on clay to have too many matches with Nadal.
 
IvanisevicServe said:
What today proved is simply that Djokovic doesn't give Federer the same kinds of problems Nadal does. As great a player as he is, if Federer is on, he's the favorite in their matches. Hard, flat shots don't bother him too much...especially over 5 sets.

I had another thought today; Djokovic, right now, is a better player than Agassi ever was. Agassi had equally great ground strokes and return of serve, but he never moved even half as well as Djokovic does. Plus, Djokovic has a better serve.

And Federer has a pretty good head to head with him, despite the large age difference. I think that should be mentioned in any comparisons between Sampras and Federer. People mention that Sampras had a winning H2H against his biggest rival, as opposed to Federer with Nadal. Well, Federer matches up well with a player who is pretty clearly better than Agassi...so it would seem to me that Sampras was just fortunate not to have a Nadal type in his era. Of course, it's still unlikely Sampras would have won enough on clay to have too many matches with Nadal.
Click to expand...

Come on, Agassi won 8 majors. Give him the respect he deserves.
 
IvanisevicServe said:
What today proved is simply that Djokovic doesn't give Federer the same kinds of problems Nadal does. As great a player as he is, if Federer is on, he's the favorite in their matches. Hard, flat shots don't bother him too much...especially over 5 sets.

I had another thought today; Djokovic, right now, is a better player than Agassi ever was. Agassi had equally great ground strokes and return of serve, but he never moved even half as well as Djokovic does. Plus, Djokovic has a better serve.
Click to expand...

Going by observation, many people might have agreed with you if the question was asked yesterday.

But player quality, as was demonstrated today, goes beyond form alone. What Djokovic lacks this year is not form, but experience. He has years of experience, but the problem is his experience is more negative than positive, compared to say Federer or Nadal.

Agassi's form may not have been as good as Djokovic's form this year, but Agassi had far better experience than Djokovic...the kind of experience it takes to win semifinal and final grand slam matches, like today.


And Federer has a pretty good head to head with him, despite the large age difference. I think that should be mentioned in any comparisons between Sampras and Federer. People mention that Sampras had a winning H2H against his biggest rival, as opposed to Federer with Nadal. Well, Federer matches up well with a player who is pretty clearly better than Agassi...so it would seem to me that Sampras was just fortunate not to have a Nadal type in his era. Of course, it's still unlikely Sampras would have won enough on clay to have too many matches with Nadal.
Click to expand...

It's a marvellous head-to-head record against Djokovic, considering the age difference. It's been almost 3 and 1/2 years since Djokovic won his groundbreaking slam at the AO, but since then Federer has won more slams (4 compared to 2) than Djokovic, with many slam matches between the two during that time, that resulted in Federer still having the upper hand in both slam titles and slam matches.
 
Marius_Hancu said:
There has always been only an Emperor here.
Click to expand...

LOL

Emperor: Federer
King: Djokovic
Commander: Nadal
Clown: Murray
Knight: Delpo


To the OP....well Djokovic is a contedor but he aint no king. He will win many slams and hoply one day RG. Today it was Federer day and they both played well. All those matches....they were contested real well and Djokovic does have slam aura around him. Federer can't pull off many more wins in slams anymore. Hopefully he can take a slam this year to continue his streak of winning a slam a year!
 
Champion mentality and nerves of steel are something that are often times honed they come with the experience of victory.

If Novak had the luxury of beginning his career when established greats were just beginning or in their definite twilight years and could improve along with them I think he'd have more of a champions mentality.

All those victories gives one the confidence that they can accomplish the victory and allows them a little more ease of mind. Its like a rolling ball of snow that gathers more mass as it travels. Each victory reinforces ones confidence, mental strength and gives experience how to handle the situations.

I doubt if Federer played today with only 2-3 slams yet with all his skill he would have the same steady hands, shots and confidence or he had today. The past creates the present and future.

Basically this post isn't about sour grape. What I'm saying is over time as Novak will possibly gain stronger mentality in Slams as the next few years pass. I could be wrong of course, but we'll see.
 
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Sid_Vicious said:
Come on, Agassi won 8 majors. Give him the respect he deserves.
Click to expand...

I'm not disrespecting him.

And I never said he has the better career. He's still a young guy...Agassi played into his mid-30's. He won majors in his 30's.

But from a pure tennis standpoint, Djokovic is the better player. They both have/had outstanding ground strokes from both wings, but Djokovic is a FAR better mover than Agassi ever was, has a better serve, and has shown more consistency than Agassi did in his career as far as getting deep into majors.
 
TennisBatman said:
Going by observation, many people might have agreed with you if the question was asked yesterday.

But player quality, as was demonstrated today, goes beyond form alone. What Djokovic lacks this year is not form, but experience. He has years of experience, but the problem is his experience is more negative than positive, compared to say Federer or Nadal.

Agassi's form may not have been as good as Djokovic's form this year, but Agassi had far better experience than Djokovic...the kind of experience it takes to win semifinal and final grand slam matches, like today.
Click to expand...

Well, to be fair, Agassi was known as a "choker" earlier in his career when he lost in big matches. It wasn't until his upset of Ivanisevic at Wimbledon that he finally got the monkey off his back, and the 1994 unseeded US Open victory finally dispelled the notion that he wouldn't live up to the hype. So he was able to successfully overcome that pressure in tough situations and get on with his career.

That said, I would agree his "champion's mentality" played a role in his early 00's slams as tennis was in transition during that time period.

Djokovic, though, was able to avoid the "never won a slam" label that Murray is suffocating from by winning so quickly after his initial surge to #3. He's just had the misfortune of coming up against Federer and Nadal time and time again.
 
IvanisevicServe said:
I'm not disrespecting him.

And I never said he has the better career. He's still a young guy...Agassi played into his mid-30's. He won majors in his 30's.

But from a pure tennis standpoint, Djokovic is the better player. They both have/had outstanding ground strokes from both wings, but Djokovic is a FAR better mover than Agassi ever was, has a better serve, and has shown more consistency than Agassi did in his career as far as getting deep into majors.
Click to expand...

This is just so wrong
 
Marius_Hancu said:
There has always been only an Emperor here.
Click to expand...
edit: an -> one


p.s. Where is my good friend, ksbh, today. he was going to rub something into our collective faces, and it had something to do with what Madame Dijana said in 2008 !
 
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PCXL-Fan said:
Champion mentality and nerves of steel are something that are often times honed they come with the experience of victory.

If Novak had the luxury of beginning his career when established greats were just beginning or in their definite twilight years and could improve along with them I think he'd have more of a champions mentality.

All those victories gives one the confidence that they can accomplish the victory and allows them a little more ease of mind. Its like a rolling ball of snow that gathers more mass as it travels. Each victory reinforces ones confidence, mental strength and gives experience how to handle the situations.

I doubt if Federer played today with only 2-3 slams yet with all his skill he would have the same steady hands, shots and confidence or he had today. The past creates the present and future.

Basically this post isn't about sour grape. What I'm saying is over time as Novak will possibly gain stronger mentality in Slams as the next few years pass. I could be wrong of course, but we'll see.
Click to expand...

Nadal seems to be the big hurdle at the moment. It's the same case with Federer, but the difference is that Djokovic can wait until Federer retires for that roadblock of his career to be cleared--whereas with Nadal, it's a much longer wait, most likely, due to his younger age.

The 2010 US Open was really the defining moment of their rivalry, as it was their only grand slam final against each other up to now. Djokovic was the one favored by many to win the title, due to his greater familiarity with the hard-court tournaments. But we all know how that match turned out...
 
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