"the legs are the suspension"

[10sbeast888]

You make zero sense.
Pro's will do what they can to optimise their shot as best as possible and get into balanced position or as close as possible to it. This is why they value footwork patterns, prep early, split and spend their life off the court at the gym.




Morronic. If you are pulled wide and stretched, you are going to be on defense. In extreme situations you won't even be able to compensate any loss of balance and just chip it back.

Saying things like this shows you play no competition and face no hard hitting offensive players.



There is no conscious decision making. There is muscle memory that wants to play the best possible shot.

It's funny because just yesterday I was working on exactly this with a group. Decent players. They had a tendency to run through their shot when stretched wide, but not that stretched. Meaning they would their fh or BH without stopping and then having to take 3 additional steps to come to a stop and recover. Result is an unbalanced shot an late recovery. It's an intuitive mistake.

So we did a drill on wide balls where the goal was to split, unit turn, run to that ball, plant outside leg (thus stop), hit shot in open stance, recover.

To illustrate:

It's all about the footwork

Off course, you need to be early to be able to do that. And in more extreme situations you won't be able to.



Yeah, so "crappy", making an effort to optimise balance and adapt as best as possible if you can't.

I get it though... These are not concepts one would grasp if one only plays slow friendly hits down the middle.

in the academy there is no need to drill these things, once the shot making is correct, all the footwork pattern is automatically correct. there is no adapt.. it's the optimal way to train and play.

I am only asking everyone to watch the USO for 2 weeks.. and honestly high level guy, your well trained player, there is no reason not to ditch that old-gen WTA fh. Once you raise your elbow to have leverage at the prep, you will experience what it's like to 'fire at will'. it will make your fh 40% better: much faster cycle time from prep to contact, and get rid of the swing flaw with the elbow stuck behind.

40% is not a made up number. this issue has been correct multiple times in the academy, and 40% is what the playerz say themselvez.

 

[10sbeast888]

also guyz... you may have noticed a lot of the stuff I say is similar to Wegner's teaching.

- leading with the hand on groundies and volleys;
- no explicit training of footwork patterns;
- parametric swings.

it's not like some lowly 4.5 rec made all this stuff up.

over the years as an tennis research enthusiast you inevitably come across various styles of training, Wegner being one of them... but the tendency to have many similarities to him naturally comes from the on court experience, from playing and helping others.

this stuff just works.

that is if the swing itself is not limited by something like a low elbow.

I can fully appreciate why people say 'it's all about the footwork', yes it certainly feels that way if you have deficiency in your swing and your game is fully dependent on the compensations for it/them.

why would the ball care what your feet do. first principle thinking will easily lead to the conclusion - it's all about shot making. And real life experience proves that.

 

[ppma]

Wouldn't it better use it?!:

The Movement of the Big-3: Part III

off backhands — sliding — running forehands

hughclarke.substack.com

The first and the third are full dynamic balance KC working. Second is done on bad off-time footwork, driven mainly by arm and torso; worse ball quality.

 

[Smecz]

Those are good examples of where they can't get to a balanced stop, but not so extreme that they have to chip it.

The last one, note how there is the effort to, while on the run, still plant the outside leg to initiate the stroke and get balanced anyway.

Maybe the change in movement (better reaching the next ball) was one of the reasons why each of them had more slams than the last...?!

Djokovic was the most pragmatic of them all; for him, hitting the next ball was what mattered, so better body braking was needed to quickly reach the next ball...

 

[10sbeast888]

I'd say we adjourne for 2 weeks.

for those who don't play tennis - watch the USO and just imagine the fh = core + pez, with the legs being the wheels and the suspension.
for those who swing like old gen WTA - maybe enough time to retool to an ATP swing path... then everything I say will make sense.

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

in the academy there is no need to drill these things, once the shot making is correct, all the footwork pattern is automatically correct.

You should go to actual academies and pro's and tell them how they are all wasting their time drilling footwork patterns and how you magically found a way to make it magically happen "automatically".

This guy..........

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

Maybe the change in movement (better reaching the next ball) was one of the reasons why each of them had more slams than the last...?!

I'm not understanding the point you are trying to make here.
But for sure the big 3 are not the big 3 by coincidence.

They are superior to "the rest" in a lot of ways, if not most ways. And their elite movement is most definitely one of them.
As Federer himself once said during a post-match interview: "...there is no doubt that the best players are also the best movers"

Djokovic was the most pragmatic of them all; for him, hitting the next ball was what mattered, so better body braking was needed to quickly reach the next ball...

I think that's a bit daring to say based on 3 snapshot examples.
Every one of them, including all other pro players, will always try and get to the best possible balance to hit a shot AND try and have it transition into the best possible recovery.
Some are just better at it then others. Djokovic is certainly up there as a candidate for the goat when it comes to that.
But I wouldn't necessarily put him above Federer or Nadal in that respect.

Djoko certainly was an extremely elite retriever, no doubt about that.

 

[ppma]

drilling footwork patterns

When I've been to high performance academies, that's 90% of the drills that do beyond tactical point practice.

The nonsense here is that we are discussing this as if arming the ball is the best way to play for amateurs, but at the same time, you're "put down" by supposedly not using "ATP forehand". Hope the madness is seen by other posters too.

 

[10sbeast888]

When I've been to high performance academies, that's 90% of the drills they do beyond tactical point practice.

The nonsense here is that we are discussing this as if arming the ball is the best way to play for amateurs, but at the same time, you're "put down" by supposedly not using "ATP forehand". Hope the madness is seen by other posters too.

clueless. that is point pattern drilling. not footwork drilling.

guyz... like I said we are at impasse.

none of you swing ATP, if swing at all.... it's not something I lean on today... weeks ago I already conceded, with the PSF low elbow ground up is the only way for him.

do the 2 week thing. it's not a lot to ask as you have already wasted months.

@ppma aka couch tennis (TM) can watch the USO and PSF aka old-gen WTA why not do a ball machine session swing the ATP.

 

[10sbeast888]

When I've been to high performance academies, that's 90% of the drills they do beyond tactical point practice.

The nonsense here is that we are discussing this as if arming the ball is the best way to play for amateurs, but at the same time, you're "put down" by supposedly not using "ATP forehand". Hope the madness is seen by other posters too.

for the 56th timing let me clear it up.

arming = beginners biceps only.

ATP = core + pec.

now eat your wordz.

 

[ppma]

arming = beginners biceps only.

ATP = core + pec.

You're good comedian dude. Although I like lauging a lot, keep me in ignore, please. I am afraid that someday you learn something.


BTW:

over the years as an tennis research enthusiast

Says the dude that neglects all the research posted against his claims.

clueless. that is point pattern drilling. not footwork drilling.

No. It's situational shot drilling.
Usually, when someone talks about something that they know a lot about from having lots of credited experience, they're respected. The exception is when that experience comes from being clueless, cause that's where the paradox comes. A clueless expert can't tell when other people are as clueless as him.

 

[10sbeast888]

@ProStaffFanatic

btw in my tennis circle there is someone who had similar elite training at young age, played satellite then went to play D1.. old school game.. I showed him how ATP works with the polys and it was eye opener. The ease of play and the ball flight are both completely different.

the way you load the shot there is a lot of RHS left on the table, which is why nobody even in WTA is swinging this way today.

your high level guy no doubt, but the fh is a liability, not asset.

 

[optic yellow]

what is meant by suspension

 

[10sbeast888]

what is meant by suspension

meaning the legs and the hips are reactive rather than pro active.

I have referenced Fault Tolerant Tennis FTT skater vid ~100 times; recently FTT has a new vid talking about the initial move of the hips is clockwise, in reaction of the core move counterclockwise.

if you take that mindset to the court, with the ATP swing path, everything will start to make sense. and you will feel the freedom like never before.

not only for your own play, but also when you watch the pros in the USO, their body languages will make complete sense.

 

[Smecz]

I'm not understanding the point you are trying to make here.
But for sure the big 3 are not the big 3 by coincidence.

They are superior to "the rest" in a lot of ways, if not most ways. And their elite movement is most definitely one of them.
As Federer himself once said during a post-match interview: "...there is no doubt that the best players are also the best movers"



I think that's a bit daring to say based on 3 snapshot examples.
Every one of them, including all other pro players, will always try and get to the best possible balance to hit a shot AND try and have it transition into the best possible recovery.
Some are just better at it then others. Djokovic is certainly up there as a candidate for the goat when it comes to that.
But I wouldn't necessarily put him above Federer or Nadal in that respect.

Djoko certainly was an extremely elite retriever, no doubt about that.

I don't want to write everything, read it, it explains a lot:

The Movement of the Big-3: Part III

off backhands — sliding — running forehands

hughclarke.substack.com

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

I don't want to write everything, read it, it explains a lot:

The Movement of the Big-3: Part III

off backhands — sliding — running forehands

hughclarke.substack.com

Very interesting!

 

[Smecz]

The first and the third are full dynamic balance KC working. Second is done on bad off-time footwork, driven mainly by arm and torso; worse ball quality.

Possible,It can be like that, mainly it's about stopping smoothly while running without loss balance and being able to quickly be ready for the next attack...

 

[Smecz]

Very interesting!

Well, Djokovic, thanks to his unique movement, including sliding, managed to cover the court very well, quickly return to position and play, and, most importantly, he managed to get everyone around with his backhand...(No escape for his forehand)

But it's better to read the article; the author explains well.!!

 

[optic yellow]

meaning the legs and the hips are reactive rather than pro active.

I have referenced Fault Tolerant Tennis FTT skater vid ~100 times; recently FTT has a new vid talking about the initial move of the hips is clockwise, in reaction of the core move counterclockwise.

if you take that mindset to the court, with the ATP swing path, everything will start to make sense. and you will feel the freedom like never before.

not only for your own play, but also when you watch the pros in the USO, their body languages will make complete sense.

Are you basically just trying to say players should not be actively thinking of using their legs?

 

[10sbeast888]

Are you basically just trying to say players should not be actively thinking of using their legs?

players should not try to hit a fh with the ground up proximal distal sequence.

 

[optic yellow]

players should not try to hit a fh with the ground up proximal distal sequence.

Is this the same thing I said?

 

[10sbeast888]

Is this the same thing I said?

it can be.

 

[optic yellow]

it can be.

This is not strictly contradictory with someone indicating that the legs are a source of power in an optimally taken unhurried groundstroke.

 

[10sbeast888]

This is not strictly contradictory with someone indicating that the legs are a source of power in an optimally taken unhurried groundstroke.

it isn't.

in fact even for an unhurried ball, you get MORE GRF by letting the legs responding to the core, instead of initiating the proximal distal from the ground.

 

[optic yellow]

GRF is ground force?

 

[10sbeast888]

GRF is ground force?

Ground Reaction Force.

one big blind spot for the ground up proximal distal people is they think by initiating from the upper body you lose out on the GRF.

it's the opposite. when the core initiates the move counterclockwise it cause the hips to move clockwise initially, this drives the right leg hard into the ground, getting massive GRF.

I have a new thread today about the 'limiter'... my game is right quad limited because those muscles work the hardest in the fh.

 

[optic yellow]

Ground Reaction Force.

one big blind spot for the ground up proximal distal people is they think by initiating from the upper body you lose out on the GRF.

it's the opposite. when the core initiates the move counterclockwise it cause the hips to move clockwise initially, this drives the right leg hard into the ground, getting massive GRF.

I have a new thread today about the 'limiter'... my game is right quad limited because those muscles work the hardest in the fh.

Ground up is not even proximal distal it is distal proximal distal.

Is there a good video showing clearly the hips doing this? It makes sense in that it is similar to the loading lag on the serve.

 

[10sbeast888]

Ground up is not even proximal distal it is distal proximal distal.

Is there a good video showing clearly the hips doing this? It makes sense in that it is similar to the loading lag on the serve.

'equal and opposite'.

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

Ground Reaction Force.

one big blind spot for the ground up proximal distal people is they think by initiating from the upper body you lose out on the GRF.

it's the opposite. when the core initiates the move counterclockwise it cause the hips to move clockwise initially, this drives the right leg hard into the ground, getting massive GRF.

I have a new thread today about the 'limiter'... my game is right quad limited because those muscles work the hardest in the fh.

This contradicts every single biomechanical study.
It is not what actually objectively happens.

If you are just talking about mental cues, you should be clear about this. Because as written, what you say is simply objectively incorrect.

 

[optic yellow]

'equal and opposite'.

Okay so what he is saying is basically you make sure you unit turn properly (i.e. thoracic vertebral region only) so that you induce the coil involved with the hip-shoulder line angle? I do not really see what relevance the hip rotating counterclockwise has to to this but I do think it is a really piece of advice for people to see because that is a very common error with beginning/lower level players when they try to hit a groundstroke.

Would you say Djokovic does the same thing in the first shot he hits here:

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

Ground up is not even proximal distal it is distal proximal distal.

Leg load drive initiates hip / pelvis rotation creating hip/shoulder separation. That causes the stretch shortening cycle unwinding in a proximal to distal sequence. It's what creates lag.

Do you actively consciously think about this sequence when hitting? No.
Is it what objectively happens on a balanced shot? Yes.

 

[optic yellow]

Leg load drive initiates hip / pelvis rotation creating hip/shoulder separation. That causes the stretch shortening cycle unwinding in a proximal to distal sequence. It's what creates lag.

Do you actively consciously think about this sequence when hitting? No.
Is it what objectively happens on a balanced shot? Yes.

Well leg load drive done properly is coming from the hip so I would say it can still satisfy proximal to distal? Anyways I thought he was talking about someone saying you should think directly about putting your foot into the ground.

 

[10sbeast888]

Okay so what he is saying is basically you make sure you unit turn properly (i.e. thoracic vertebral region only) so that you induce the coil involved with the hip-shoulder line angle? I do not really see what relevance the hip rotating counterclockwise has to to this but I do think it is a really piece of advice for people to see because that is a very common error with beginning/lower level players when they try to hit a groundstroke.

Would you say Djokovic does the same thing in the first shot he hits here:

The keywords are equal and opposite. The sequence is also explained in his skater vid.

Yes all pros do this.

 

[10sbeast888]

This contradicts every single biomechanical study.
It is not what actually objectively happens.

If you are just talking about mental cues, you should be clear about this. Because as written, what you say is simply objectively incorrect.

You will never change your mind as long as you swing the old gen WTA.

The outdated theory and outdated swing are in a perpetual confirmation loop.

 

[10sbeast888]

Guyz we have done way too much talking. This stuff is easily verified on the court.

Should you swing the ATP FH.

 

[optic yellow]

The keywords are equal and opposite. The sequence is also explained in his skater vid.

Yes all pros do this.

Equal and opposite feel like meaningless terms here. They are vague ambiguous concepts that distract from useful actionable things like making the unit turn correctly (i.e. only thoracic torso) and what he mentions at 2:58 about how the shoulders are still turning back for a split second after the hips start turning forward.

 

[10sbeast888]

Equal and opposite feel like meaningless terms here. They are vague ambiguous concepts that distract from useful actionable things like making the unit turn correctly (i.e. only thoracic torso) and what he mentions at 2:58 about how the shoulders are still turning back for a split second after the hips start turning forward.

sure during the coiling (shoulder line moving clockwise), the hips can go counterclockwise.

what's being debated is what starts the uncoil. the explanation is in the vid below.

PSF post #281 reflects what he knows and feels with his old-gen WTA swing, that's why he keeps saying SSC and 'elastic whip'. that does not remotely fit what the pros are doing.

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

PSF post #281 reflects what he knows and feels with his old-gen WTA swing, that's why he keeps saying SSC and 'elastic whip'. that does not remotely fit what the pros are doing.

No. It reflects every single scientific study and what actual active pro coaches say and what pros actually do, as they are the subjects of the studies.

They have multi million dollar measuring equipment, sensors, pro players to study and peer reviewed papers. You have arming shadow swings in your bedroom and zero experience in high level tennis OR coaching.

Guess who I'm going with.

 

[ppma]

OMG not the skater vid yet.
It's to early to start doing shots.

 

[Smecz]

sure during the coiling (shoulder line moving clockwise), the hips can go counterclockwise.

what's being debated is what starts the uncoil. the explanation is in the vid below.

PSF post #281 reflects what he knows and feels with his old-gen WTA swing, that's why he keeps saying SSC and 'elastic whip'. that does not remotely fit what the pros are doing.

I know this from powerfail: rotation, rotation, nothing, but rotation. But a spin with a twist requires more pressure on the ground and a leg push, which is a bit off...

I thought about it and concluded that practically every shot can have minimal or moderate ground pressure, and the same applies to the leg push.

There's no way a jumping forehand wouldn't have ground pressure and leg push...

 

[10sbeast888]

No. It reflects every single scientific study and what actual active pro coaches say and what pros actually do, as they are the subjects of the studies.

They have multi million dollar measuring equipment, sensors, pro players to study and peer reviewed papers. You have arming shadow swings in your bedroom and zero experience in high level tennis OR coaching.

Guess who I'm going with.

like I said. perpetual confirmation loop.

 

[Smecz]

sure during the coiling (shoulder line moving clockwise), the hips can go counterclockwise.

what's being debated is what starts the uncoil. the explanation is in the vid below.

PSF post #281 reflects what he knows and feels with his old-gen WTA swing, that's why he keeps saying SSC and 'elastic whip'. that does not remotely fit what the pros are doing.

The more you try to prove your point, the more I find in this video that you are probably wrong...

 

[10sbeast888]

I know this from powerfail: rotation, rotation, nothing, but rotation. But a spin with a twist requires more pressure on the ground and a leg push, which is a bit off...

I thought about it and concluded that practically every shot can have minimal or moderate ground pressure, and the same applies to the leg push.

There's no way a jumping forehand wouldn't have ground pressure and leg push...

sorry, for the 111th time, nobody said the legs don't push..

 

[10sbeast888]

The more you try to prove your point, the more I find in this video that you are probably wrong...

I am asking all couch tennis players, like ppma, to pretend agreeing with me for 2 weeks while watching the USO... whether that will make a difference, I don't know...

but for anyone who plays - first, learn the ATP swing path, then just try this on the court.

it's utterly obvious.

 

[10sbeast888]

No. It reflects every single scientific study and what actual active pro coaches say and what pros actually do, as they are the subjects of the studies.

They have multi million dollar measuring equipment, sensors, pro players to study and peer reviewed papers. You have arming shadow swings in your bedroom and zero experience in high level tennis OR coaching.

Guess who I'm going with.

high level guy, since your the only one who actually gave evidence that you play tennis - here is a free lesson... not from me a lowly 4.5, but a coach who has tot Fonseca.

the issue Coach Michael fixed for this kid is the exact issue with your old gen WTA.

when you have low elbow and subsequently the racket head goes to the inside behind your back, your swing sequence is:

coil (low elbow, no leverage) -> legs/hips fire -> core starts to move, elbow rises -> tennis computer senses leverage -> the pec fires and brings the arm thru the contact.

it fits your SSC/elastic description. I 'conceded' weeks ago, ground up is the only way you CAN play, the only way you know how to play.

with the ATP fh, elbow up, strings down, leverage at the ready, all you need to do is coil, then fire the core+pec.

again, for the high level player you are, your fh is a liability. a rebuild will make it 40% better. much faster cycle time from prep to contact, much more RHS with the ESR loading.

Coach Michael calls it Diamond Sideways Pull, it's the model we use in the academy.

 

[ppma]

couch tennis players, like ppma,

I am not a coach and I don't pretend to be. But I apply fundamental mechanic notions, and what you propose is wrong from those basis. I explained a lot of times. Dynamic balance is a conscious purpose-driven active sequence of actions; in such context legs don't "react".

Also, I tried starting from the pecs or from the core rotation and it's all a mess; no way to make a shot in proper balance; similar as when I hit a ball on the run and I am not able to time plating the right foot before swinging. Besides, trying to be conscious of what I need try to do thinking about what segment of the body fires first in real game is not an easy task in real game.

 

[10sbeast888]

and ironically the thumb says only 1% know this... and based on how this debate has been going, 1% is about right.

the 99% of the tennis crowd is still using the out dated knowledge base.

 

[10sbeast888]

I am not a coach and I don't pretend to be. But I apply fundamental mechanic notions, and what you propose is wrong from those basis. I explained a lot of times. Dynamic balance is a conscious purpose-driven active sequence of actions; in such context legs don't "react".

Also, I tried starting from the pecs or from the core rotation and it's all a mess; no way to make a shot in proper balance; similar as when I hit a ball on the run and I am not able to time plating the right foot before swinging. Besides, trying to be conscious of what I need try to do thinking about what segment of the body fires first in real game is not an easy task in real game.

well, credit to you for actually trying.

but this would be a perfect time to post vid and see what we are talking about.

 

[ratherlosethanpush]

Ground Reaction Force.

one big blind spot for the ground up proximal distal people is they think by initiating from the upper body you lose out on the GRF.

it's the opposite. when the core initiates the move counterclockwise it cause the hips to move clockwise initially, this drives the right leg hard into the ground, getting massive GRF.

I have a new thread today about the 'limiter'... my game is right quad limited because those muscles work the hardest in the fh.

Sports scientists tend to consider movement in terms of preparation action and recovery. Their ideas on kinetic chain come from the action phase.

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

high level guy, since your the only one who actually gave evidence that you play tennis - here is a free lesson... not from me a lowly 4.5, but a coach who has tot Fonseca.

the issue Coach Michael fixed for this kid is the exact issue with your old gen WTA.

when you have low elbow and subsequently the racket head goes to the inside behind your back, your swing sequence is:

coil (low elbow, no leverage) -> legs/hips fire -> core starts to move, elbow rises -> tennis computer senses leverage -> the pec fires and brings the arm thru the contact.

it fits your SSC/elastic description. I 'conceded' weeks ago, ground up is the only way you CAN play, the only way you know how to play.

with the ATP fh, elbow up, strings down, leverage at the ready, all you need to do is coil, then fire the core+pec.

again, for the high level player you are, your fh is a liability. a rebuild will make it 40% better. much faster cycle time from prep to contact, much more RHS with the ESR loading.

Coach Michael calls it Diamond Sideways Pull, it's the model we use in the academy.

I saw that vid already when you posted it the first time. And I pointed out then already that he considers the ground up kinetic chain so mega obvious that he only cared to fly over it with just one little remark as a footnote with something like "...because here is the power..." when referring to a leg drive.

This is what you don't seem to be understanding. This stuff is SO obvious to everybody that in their "online lessons" they aren't even mentioning it, or just casually passing over it left and right, and focusing on other things instead.

I've told you before that proximal to distal sequencing with ssc IS the modern way to strike the ball.
The "old way" concerned a rigid rotation without ssc and lag. John McEnroe style.

The more you talk about it, the more I am convinced that you actually don't know what proximal to distal sequencing actually refers to.
If you coil, rotate the pelvis to get shoulder -hip seperation creating ssc and then uncoil with lag, then you are using proximal to distal sequencing.
This is why there is lag in the first place.................... because the torso rotates while the arm lags. Then the arm follows while the wrist / racket lags. Then the wrist / racket follows creating enormous racket head speed, like a whip.

And to rotate the pelvis creating shoulder-hip separation, GRF are used to accomplish that. This is just simple newtonian physics. You can do that passively, subtle or with an actual push to increase the explosiveness of that rotation.

Off course you use torso muscles, pec and what not to unwind it all.
It goes bottom to top. Big to small.
That's how you achieve lag and effortless speed and power.


This is common knowledge

How useful it is as coaching cues, I'll leave in the middle. It might be for some and not for others.
But it is the biomechanical reality for a properly executed balanced modern ground stroke.
It really is that simple.