The "line drive" serve.

[Steady Eddy]

I've been experimenting with what I'll call the "line drive" serve. The toss is low and the trajectory is almost parallel to the court surface. The bounce is very low and the returner must really bend their knees in order to make a good return.

Their point of contact is well below the top of the net, so they can't 'tee-off' or it will go too deep

Anyone else use this type of serve?

 

[naturalexponent]

Most of the old dudes I face do

 

[ballmachineguy]

It’s the serve between a typical first serve that has a bit of topspin and that reverse serve that screwballs (tutorial posted recently).
Most effective on public courts that haven’t been resurfaced in a decade or more.

 

[10sbeast888]

can't put anything on it... your just getting a neutral reply, nothing advantageous to you..

in the amateurs you wan't sliders/breaking balls type of stuff... most folks can't read spin.

 

[Rosstour]

I know a guy who hits this, Kyrgios lightning style. He can only go up the middle with it though.

I have hit them but not really intentionally. Once I hit one and it got stuck in the back fence but only like 3 inches off the ground.

 

[sureshs]

I've been experimenting with what I'll call the "line drive" serve. The toss is low and the trajectory is almost parallel to the court surface. The bounce is very low and the returner must really bend their knees in order to make a good return.

Their point of contact is well below the top of the net, so they can't 'tee-off' or it will go too deep

Anyone else use this type of serve?

@GSG uses this serve

 

[Dragy]

It’s a backspin serve. If facing such, and it’s not missing much. The key to return it well is to actually figure out where it peaks and stay around there, inside the court, better if ready to play a FH.

This approach (and it’s just best way to deal with any weakish serve) allows to hit early and use advantageous position to make server run, even with a slice or moderately fast topspin. Just be there where you don’t lunge for it, and hit it with intention (hitting at the net person in doubles is also an option).

But as a server facing 3.0 or weak 3.5 or some hot-head ball basher, this might absolutely work.

 

[TennisCJC]

I don't use a flat serve like that. If I am up 2 or more points in a service game, I will toss more out front for pace and hit more flat but it still has a fair amount of spin and bounce up a bit. How's your 1st serve percentage on the flat low serve? I tend to lean heavily on spinning nearly all serves in an effort to get my 1st serve percentage up.

 

[socallefty]

Is this just a flat serve or something else?

 

[Steady Eddy]

I don't use a flat serve like that. If I am up 2 or more points in a service game, I will toss more out front for pace and hit more flat but it still has a fair amount of spin and bounce up a bit. How's your 1st serve percentage on the flat low serve? I tend to lean heavily on spinning nearly all serves in an effort to get my 1st serve percentage up.

This goes in fairly often, I'd estimate between 70 and 80%. It has a low contact point, just under 7 feet, and it's hit between 60 and 70 mph. Concentrate on getting it just a bit over the net and it will nearly always hit before the service line.

With that low contact point and some pace the bounce is more like a skip. If the receiver isn't paying attention the serves already taken two bounces before they're aware the point has even started!

 

[Steady Eddy]

Is this just a flat serve or something else?

I think the difference is the low contact point. Many flat serves have a high contact point and lots of pace. This means the ball bounces fairly high after making contact with the court surface. This serve has a path nearly parallel to the court, sort of like when trying to skip stones on a pond. The ball skids upward at a low angle which makes it hard to tee off on.

 

[Rosstour]

Is this just a flat serve or something else?

It has some spin on it, imparted by which part of the ball you hit

 

[10sbeast888]

This goes in fairly often, I'd estimate between 70 and 80%. It has a low contact point, just under 7 feet, and it's hit between 60 and 70 mph. Concentrate on getting it just a bit over the net and it will nearly always hit before the service line.

With that low contact point and some pace the bounce is more like a skip. If the receiver isn't paying attention the serves already taken two bounces before they're aware the point has even started!

you have just described MEP's serve.

 

[Steady Eddy]

you have just described MEP's serve.

I really admire MEP's game. He gets the maximum performance out of his limited strokes.

 

[LuckyR]

It’s a backspin serve. If facing such, and it’s not missing much. The key to return it well is to actually figure out where it peaks and stay around there, inside the court, better if ready to play a FH.

This approach (and it’s just best way to deal with any weakish serve) allows to hit early and use advantageous position to make server run, even with a slice or moderately fast topspin. Just be there where you don’t lunge for it, and hit it with intention (hitting at the net person in doubles is also an option).

But as a server facing 3.0 or weak 3.5 or some hot-head ball basher, this might absolutely work.

There's a guy in our doubles group witn this serve. The key, if you're used to facing serves at your level, is to stand well within the baseline. If you line up 3 feet behind, as many do, then you're facing a situation of running forwards and catching the serve right before the second bounce (at the loeest possible contact point). OTOH if you're standing 4 feet inside the baseline, you maybe take one dtep forward and catch it at it's highest point, which isn't that high, but is within many folks' strikezone.

 

[Dragy]

There's a guy in our doubles group witn this serve. The key, if you're used to facing serves at your level, is to stand well within the baseline. If you line up 3 feet behind, as many do, then you're facing a situation of running forwards and catching the serve right before the second bounce (at the loeest possible contact point). OTOH if you're standing 4 feet inside the baseline, you maybe take one dtep forward and catch it at it's highest point, which isn't that high, but is within many folks' strikezone.

Exactly. One of key things for returning is actually paying attention, adjusting and finding best position and way to approach it.

 

[travlerajm]

Some 3.5F can do this at elite level.

 

[optic yellow]

can't put anything on it... your just getting a neutral reply, nothing advantageous to you..

in the amateurs you wan't sliders/breaking balls type of stuff... most folks can't read spin.

This is correct, if you're doing junk serving, you generally want to run it off the court short or give reverse sidespin.

 

[nyta2]

the ultra pancake serve!
even has backspin sometimes.
can be effective (even against me, especially if placed well), but i think it's effectiveness is partially because it's so erratic (ie. surprises me when it goes in, so can't really get a rhythm )
the major issue with folks that hit this way, is that their serve mechanics are poor, therefore their 2nd serve is a dink... (and their 1st serve is 50/50 at best - but usually lower)... also it eliminates wide serves as the clearance is so low, that i know it's gonna have go over the middle-ish of the net (so i just need to defend body & tee)... can go wide, but usually folks take alot off the serve, so it becomes a 3/4 pancake

 

[onehandbh]

This type of serve will have a predictable and low bounce and should be easy to hit a return. Some returns try to hit too hard and miss too often.

This type of server usually is unable to hit an effect topspin/kick/topslice 2nd serve, so there 2nd serve will be very attackable bc it is usually just a slower version of their 1st serve.

 

[ChaelAZ]

I mean, I use a hard flat serve often enough, and of that mostly fro body serves. But I LOVE if you get on a slick court (a lot of park courts in AZ have no grit and a lot of dust as you know), so anything that is fast and sliding through the court forces a player to at least try to hit up.

 

[Steady Eddy]

I mean, I use a hard flat serve often enough, and of that mostly fro body serves. But I LOVE if you get on a slick court (a lot of park courts in AZ have no grit and a lot of dust as you know), so anything that is fast and sliding through the court forces a player to at least try to hit up.

You sound very cruel.

 

[Injured Again]

I don’t see how this serve is much different than an underspin groundstroke that lands inside the service box, except that it may be going a bit faster. The ground stroke will have a lower bounce than this serve, and anything that short is an invitation to be attacked even if it has a fair amount of pace because it has been hit above head height and will bounce to nearly waist height. If it has enough spin to cause it bounce really low, then it can’t have a lot of pace or it would go long.

 

[socallefty]

I could be wrong, but my impression of my serves is as listed below - can someone with a Physics background let me know if this is really what is haopening?

- Topspin serve jumps up in height the most and keeps getting higher for several feet. So a returner standing close will return at a lower height than a returner at or just behind the baseline. - the peak height might be near the baseline. But if the returner stands well behind the baseline, the ball stops rising and starts dropping so that they can make contact at a lower height than if they were close to the baseline.
- Flat serve height seems to depend on speed with faster flat serves staying lower. If I hit one of my fastest serves with good depth, it doesn’t come up at all and the returner has to make low contact whether he is close or at the baseline with the height dropping only slightly between those two spots - it drops further if the returner is well behind the baseline. This is what I thought the OP was describing. On the other hand, if the flat serve is slower, it actually seems to rise up more than the faster serve initially, but drops in height from its peak more by the time it gets to the baseline.
- Slice serve initially jumps up, but doesn’t have much forward momentum and so it starts dropping very quickly compared to all other serves. So a returner doing SABR returns close to the service line might make high contact, but anyone standing at the baseline or behind will experience an abrupt dropping of height from the peak and a low contact point. Slower slice seems to stay lower than faster slice maybe because the forward momentum decreases even more abruptly for the slower slice.

Is this accurate or does my visual experience not match the physics? I am just talking about height and not any sidespin as you can impart more or less sidespin to any slice, topslice or kick serve and it will impact the rate of drop in height of the serve. But let’s assume there is little sidespin for this question. - tough to hit slice without significant sidespin though. All my serves are hit with a continental grip including the flatter serves.

 

[10sbeast888]

gone is the pursuit of the perfect bh... now the first page is filled dink serves, fan boys of MEP, slicers getting high etc... definitely going in the right direction..

 

[10sbeast888]

I could be wrong, but my impression of my serves is as listed below - can someone with a Physics background let me know if this is really what is haopening?

- Topspin serve jumps up in height the most and keeps getting higher for several feet. So a returner standing close will return at a lower height than a returner at or just behind the baseline. - the peak height might be near the baseline. But if the returner stands well behind the baseline, the ball stops rising and starts dropping so that they can make contact at a lower height than if they were close to the baseline.
- Flat serve height seems to depend on speed with faster flat serves staying lower. If I hit one of my fastest serves with good depth, it doesn’t come up at all and the returner has to make low contact whether he is close or at the baseline with the height dropping only slightly between those two spots - it drops further if the returner is well behind the baseline. This is what I thought the OP was describing. On the other hand, if the flat serve is slower, it actually seems to rise up more than the faster serve initially, but drops in height from its peak more by the time it gets to the baseline.
- Slice serve initially jumps up, but doesn’t have much forward momentum and so it stops dropping very quickly compared to all other serves. So a returner doing SABR returns close to the service line might make high contact, but anyone standing at the baseline or behind will experience an abrupt dropping of height from the peak. Slower slice seems to stay lower than faster slice maybe because the forward momentum decreases even more abruptly for the slower slice.

Is this accurate or does my visual experience not match the physics? I am just talking about height and not any sidespin as you can impart more or less sidespin to any slice, topslice or kick serve and it will impact the rate of drop in height of the serve. But let’s assume there is little sidespin for this question. All my serves are hit with a continental grip including the flatter serves.

legit.. your serve likely better than mine as I don't have a top, only a top slice.. also conditions matter a lot.. yesterday played at 35f no wind at night cold surface them slice serves just die after the bounce.

 

[Injured Again]

@socallefty I think the OP is talking an underspin serve with no sidespin, that is hit with an Eastern forehand grip using a hammering type motion while facing straight on to the net.

 

[Steady Eddy]

I don’t see how this serve is much different than an underspin groundstroke that lands inside the service box, except that it may be going a bit faster. The ground stroke will have a lower bounce than this serve, and anything that short is an invitation to be attacked even if it has a fair amount of pace because it has been hit above head height and will bounce to nearly waist height. If it has enough spin to cause it bounce really low, then it can’t have a lot of pace or it would go long.

Don't forget, you can always play with flat balls.

 

[Steady Eddy]

@socallefty I think the OP is talking an underspin serve with no sidespin, that is hit with an Eastern forehand grip using a hammering type motion while facing straight on to the net.

Yes, and at a lower contract point than more Orthodox serves.

 

[optic yellow]

You sound very cruel.

The cruelest way to serve is be able to have enough pace on a quasi-normal serve that you can force your opponent to sit back while also being able to dink slice. Most people who can dink slice well can't normal serve and basically everyone who can normal serve is infatuated with the ego of normal serving and refuses to learn dink serving, so it is very infrequently encountered.

 

[optic yellow]

gone is the pursuit of the perfect bh... now the first page is filled dink serves, fan boys of MEP, slicers getting high etc... definitely going in the right direction..

This is correct. The maximum value from learning power topspin groundstrokes is achieved when one masters junkballing.

 

[Steady Eddy]

gone is the pursuit of the perfect bh... now the first page is filled dink serves, fan boys of MEP, slicers getting high etc... definitely going in the right direction..

I'd like to think that there are still some who want to pursue the perfect backhand. But it's not for everyone. Take baseball. When middle-aged, office workers decide they wan't to play baseball again, they don't play hardball, they sign up for slow pitch softball.

The pitcher simply feeds the ball, there is no sliding into bases, stealing bases is not allowed, and no bunting. It's similar to baseball but takes away the things they don't have the skills to do.

When sedentary middle aged folks try tennis it is a similar situation. Rushing the net usually works against them, hitting topspin only increases their mishits. What does work? For most simply trying to keep the ball in play more than their opponent. I don't try to serve the way Pete Sampras did, but I don't want to simply push it in, or double fault a lot. I'm suggesting that we weekend players try this line drive serve. It has decent pace, (some in my group have described it as fast), and I can put it in play often enough that I use it for both serves and have few double faults.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

gone is the pursuit of the perfect bh... now the first page is filled dink serves, fan boys of MEP, slicers getting high etc... definitely going in the right direction..

Why didn't you include the post where you pósted your weak backhand?
That sucked a lot to be honest

 

[10sbeast888]

Why didn't you include the post where you pósted your weak backhand?
That sucked a lot to be honest

Still 3.0 level troll. Work on it.

 

[ChaelAZ]

You sound very cruel.

We still need to play

 

[Steady Eddy]

We still need to play

I've gone up to the White Mountains.

 

[ChaelAZ]

I've gone up to the White Mountains.

Sweet. Was just up to visit friends and cut our tree out by Green's Peak Lookout, out FR117 off 260. CRAZY warm and little snow this year. Actually been looking for a summer home up there for a bit.

Enjoy. You must be on pickleball since that is much bigger up there.

 

[Steady Eddy]

Sweet. Was just up to visit friends and cut our tree out by Green's Peak Lookout, out FR117 off 260. CRAZY warm and little snow this year. Actually been looking for a summer home up there for a bit.

Enjoy. You must be on pickleball since that is much bigger up there.

Pickleball is much more popular up here, but I still haven't gotten on the pickleball band wagon. They believe that when the ball stays in play that they're having a "volley". But to me that's like hearing someone ordering a Chab liss wine at a restaurant.

I'm glad to see that game is getting so many people outdoors and getting some exercise, it just doesn't intrigue me much. Might have to take it up someday when tennis courts and players no longer exist!