The marvel of pronation! And suppination?

[Manus Domini]

I thought before reading a thread here that pronation was moving your wrist down. Now that I know what pronation really is, my serve speed and placement increased tremendously (seems like enough to get far more free points), my flat serves are going in far more and are more penetrating. My forehand is also able to add more topspin, go faster, and stay in more often as well.

And I was testing out suppination on my 1HBH, and it also helped with speed and spin. for supination, I was just wondering if the supination would lead to injuries, or if I should stick with it

 

[Kevo]

Supination definitely helps with spin on the 1HBH. It's the basis of a lot of the flick shots you see and works great with passing shots to make the ball dip down at the net. It needs to be used in conjunction with the pulling and lifting motion from the shoulder to be most effective. It's a weak motion on it's own. On the forehand and serve pronation is a much stronger movement and as you have learned very important for power as well as spin.

 

[Manus Domini]

ok thanks, will need to work on adding suppination then

 

[Limpinhitter]

I thought before reading a thread here that pronation was moving your wrist down. Now that I know what pronation really is, my serve speed and placement increased tremendously (seems like enough to get far more free points), my flat serves are going in far more and are more penetrating. My forehand is also able to add more topspin, go faster, and stay in more often as well.

And I was testing out suppination on my 1HBH, and it also helped with speed and spin. for supination, I was just wondering if the supination would lead to injuries, or if I should stick with it

Pronation/suppination is the key to getting racquet head speed in a 1hb, both topspin and underspin. With out them, you end up trying to muscle the racquet through with the weak side of your forearm. That's a typical attribute of a beginner who hasn't yet learned to hit it properly.

Check out Lendl's topspin and BJK's slice. Excellent examples of the use of pronation/suppination in a 1hb.

Check out the suppination in this BJK slice in this Wilson commercial from 1973. Stop the video at 1 sec to see how much she pronates before she suppinates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIvxP9VMo9I

 

[Netspirit]

Supination, just like pronation, can add some power at the expense of some control (more moving parts = more errors).

To me supination did not add as much spin/power as pronation did, but they both decrease consistency about the same, so the benefits of supination were less clear. I ended up not using much supination in favor of a more stable, reliable 1HBH (I may still have some, I just do not try to emphasize it). Neither do I use supination in backhand smashes anymore, switching my grip to EBH.

At higher levels players try to utilize as many tendons and muscles as they can. For recreational players I do not think mastering supination is high in the priority list.

 

[charliefedererer]

And I was testing out suppination on my 1HBH, and it also helped with speed and spin. for supination, I was just wondering if the supination would lead to injuries, or if I should stick with it

Just be sure your supination is coming from the big muscles at the shoulder, and not just the small muscles of the forearm/wrist. [Some may quibble that the correct term is "rotation of your arm", but for tennis players the action is widely known as "supination".]

(And yes, even on a "wrist flick" backhand, the "supination" is mainly coming from muscles at the shoulder turning your arm over.)

Your wrist should be not-to-tensely "locked" into an L shape, as emphasized in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNdZtkKPFhA&feature=digest

Then let it rip!

 

[Mr_Shiver]

Wrist action on the slice bh? I believe maintaining as firm and stable wrist is the key to a consistent and quality slice. When on the run or using a chop shot the wrist may be used. Not a rule or anything just my experience. Timing can be difficult when the wrist is involved, but if it works for you.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Just be sure your supination is coming from the big muscles at the shoulder, and not just the small muscles of the forearm/wrist. [Some may quibble that the correct term is "rotation of your arm", but for tennis players the action is widely known as "supination".]

(And yes, even on a "wrist flick" backhand, the "supination" is mainly coming from muscles at the shoulder turning your arm over.) ...

Technically, supination and pronation refers to rotations of the forearm (or foot). The rotations of the shoulder that you speak of are external and internal rotations. The forward swing of a 1-handed topspin BH would include forearm supination and external rotation of the shoulder. The forward swing of a topspin FH would include forearm pronation and internal rotation of the shoulder.

Note that the preparations (takeback or loop) can also include various pronations, supinations and shoulder rotations as the racket face changes its orientation.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Just be sure your supination is coming from the big muscles at the shoulder, and not just the small muscles of the forearm/wrist. [Some may quibble that the correct term is "rotation of your arm", but for tennis players the action is widely known as "supination".]

(And yes, even on a "wrist flick" backhand, the "supination" is mainly coming from muscles at the shoulder turning your arm over.)

Your wrist should be not-to-tensely "locked" into an L shape, as emphasized in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNdZtkKPFhA&feature=digest

Then let it rip!

Maintaining the "L" is a separate issue from pronation/suppination. You have to do both. Without pronation/suppination, a 1hb is impossible to hit well. Mac was an exception. His forearm and racquet were almost in a straight line.

 

[toly]

Just be sure your supination is coming from the big muscles at the shoulder, and not just the small muscles of the forearm/wrist. [Some may quibble that the correct term is "rotation of your arm", but for tennis players the action is widely known as "supination".]

(And yes, even on a "wrist flick" backhand, the "supination" is mainly coming from muscles at the shoulder turning your arm over.)

Your wrist should be not-to-tensely "locked" into an L shape, as emphasized in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNdZtkKPFhA&feature=digest

Then let it rip!

I think our wrist shouldn’t be locked into the L. We can use very fast wrist ulnar deviation to create powerful 1hbh. See picture below please. Federer uses the ulnar deviation to increase racquet’s speed.

 

[LeeD]

For me, SW forehand, pronation helps add topspin while slowing ball speed.
EBH, 1hbh, supination helps flatten the racketface, allowing the ball topspin, to keep it lower to the net and IN the opposition's court.
Federer pronates on all forehands and supinates on most topspin backhands.

 

[salsainglesa]

Supination and pronation must not be done with brute strength, they are really small muscles and you are asking for a tendinitis at least, this movements are produced mostly by larger muscles and are an addition. But dont move them on purpose, just let them be.

 

[charliefedererer]

Technically, supination and pronation refers to rotations of the forearm (or foot). The rotations of the shoulder that you speak of are external and internal rotations. The forward swing of a 1-handed topspin BH would include forearm supination and external rotation of the shoulder. The forward swing of a topspin FH would include forearm pronation and internal rotation of the shoulder.

Note that the preparations (takeback or loop) can also include various pronations, supinations and shoulder rotations as the racket face changes its orientation.

The title of the thread is The marvel of pronation! And suppination?

It may be asking too much to soon see threads on The marvel of internal rotation of the shoulder! And external rotation of the shoulder?

Hence my attempt at carefully wording: "Just be sure your supination is coming from the big muscles at the shoulder, and not just the small muscles of the forearm/wrist. [Some may quibble that the correct term is "rotation of your arm", but for tennis players the action is widely known as "supination".]"

The intention was to emphasize that external rotation at the shoulder plays a big part in what for better or worse seems to have become known in tennis circless as "supination", and not to force the motion with "wristy" movements of the forearm muscles alone.

 

[stormholloway]

Is it the forearm or the shoulder that supinate on the one hander?

 

[toly]

For me, SW forehand, pronation helps add topspin while slowing ball speed.
EBH, 1hbh, supination helps flatten the racketface, allowing the ball topspin, to keep it lower to the net and IN the opposition's court.
Federer pronates on all forehands and supinates on most topspin backhands.

I just want to emphasize, Federer pronates and uses wrist flexion on most topspin forehands. He also supinates and uses wrist ulnar deviation on most topspin backhands (see picture above). Everything should be symmetrical.

 

[toly]

Is it the forearm or the shoulder that supinate on the one hander?

I think, both.

 

[charliefedererer]

I think our wrist shouldn’t be locked into the L. We can use very fast wrist ulnar deviation to create powerful 1hb. See picture below please. Federer uses the ulnar deviation to increase racquet’s speed.

Good point!

(Although I think your protractor needs servicing. Mine reads theta as 60 degrees. That is only a loss of 30 degrees from the L shape. )

Christophe aka "xstf" addresses this exact point in the discussion right after the video:
" You bring up an interesting point. I look at it from a tennis teaching pro point of view. I teach my students to try & maintain the 90 degrees all the way through bc using the wrist is a very delicate and tricky move. When my students prove they can control the ball i then slowly let them relax the wrist a little. My videos are for an audience that is learning the game.Yes there is a wrist release but never say never bc on low passing shots the wrist remains at 90 all the way thru"
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNdZtkKPFhA&feature=digest

Certainly as swing speeds increase, a little ulnar deviation would be very hard to prevent because the momentum generated by the racquet demands this action for a smooth, natural swing. (You would have to fight centripital force mightily to resist doing this.)

But the main point of "maintaining the L" is that throughout the takeback and much of the forward swing there is not much wrist movement. And even during the hit there is not the flexion and extension at the wrist seen in some beginners with very "wristy" shots (that too often results in tennis elbow.)

 

[HunterST]

Honestly, I think if you're consciously pronating, you're going in the wrong direction. It should happen naturally! I was never even sure if I pronated until I recorded my serve and watched in slow motion.

When I was developing the basic parts of my serve, I had a short period where I tried to think about pronation, and it just doesn't work.

If you use a proper serve grip and have a good throwing motion, the pronation will just occur.

 

[toly]

Good point!

(Although I think your protractor needs servicing. Mine reads theta as 60 degrees. That is only a loss of 30 degrees from the L shape. )

We cannot use protractor to measure these angles. But, we can exploit our imagination. We also can utilize 3d engineering drawing rules or Descriptivegeometry. It is the branch of geometry which allows the representation of three-dimensional objects in two dimensions, by using a specific set of procedures. But, that would be too much, right?
Btw, I did this work and angle ϕ is around 45°.

 

[toly]

Honestly, I think if you're consciously pronating, you're going in the wrong direction. It should happen naturally! I was never even sure if I pronated until I recorded my serve and watched in slow motion.

When I was developing the basic parts of my serve, I had a short period where I tried to think about pronation, and it just doesn't work.

If you use a proper serve grip and have a good throwing motion, the pronation will just occur.

Read the post #1 please.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Is it the forearm or the shoulder that supinate on the one hander?

As I stated previously, the forearm supinates and the shoulder externally rotates on the forward swing of a 1-handed topspin BH.

 

[toly]

As I stated previously, the forearm supinates and the shoulder externally rotates on the forward swing of a 1-handed topspin BH.

Which one is faster?

 

[HunterST]

Read the post #1 please.

What's your point? He consciously pronated and had a good day. That doesn't prove much. A lot of times just the novelty of a new tactic will yield short term benefits, but in the long run, doesn't produce the best results.

 

[stormholloway]

As I stated previously, the forearm supinates and the shoulder externally rotates on the forward swing of a 1-handed topspin BH.

I guess they aren't mutually exclusive. If you supinate your forearm with a racquet in your hand, your shoulder will follow.

 

[OrangeOne]

Honestly, I think if you're consciously pronating, you're going in the wrong direction. It should happen naturally! I was never even sure if I pronated until I recorded my serve and watched in slow motion.

When I was developing the basic parts of my serve, I had a short period where I tried to think about pronation, and it just doesn't work.

If you use a proper serve grip and have a good throwing motion, the pronation will just occur.

Post of the thread, saved me from writing it.

 

[bhupaes]

Which one is faster?

Toly, I will go on a limb on this one: shoulder beats the forearm anytime!

 

[toly]

Toly, I will go on a limb on this one: shoulder beats the forearm anytime!

bhupaes, why do you think so?

 

[toly]

What's your point? He consciously pronated and had a good day. That doesn't prove much. A lot of times just the novelty of a new tactic will yield short term benefits, but in the long run, doesn't produce the best results.

There is no point. I just tried to be funny, but failed as usual. I apologize for that!

 

[bhupaes]

bhupaes, why do you think so?

I am making this statement only based on a strong, instinctive feeling. The pure forearm movement, IMO, feels more like a movement to align the racquet properly, and the shoulder rotation seems to provide the power - at least, to me - when I hit a 1HBH shot. I won't be surprised if others feel it differently.

 

[Manus Domini]

Honestly, I think if you're consciously pronating, you're going in the wrong direction. It should happen naturally! I was never even sure if I pronated until I recorded my serve and watched in slow motion.

When I was developing the basic parts of my serve, I had a short period where I tried to think about pronation, and it just doesn't work.

If you use a proper serve grip and have a good throwing motion, the pronation will just occur.

well, pronation wasn't occurring whatsoever, so obviously it wasn't natural for me...

plus, I never could throw well, never learned how, so throwing motion confuses me

 

[Cpetford95]

you gotta do it if you want to be good

 

[tennis_eel]

well, pronation wasn't occurring whatsoever, so obviously it wasn't natural for me...

plus, I never could throw well, never learned how, so throwing motion confuses me

You cannot serve with a continental grip without pronating.

 

[LeeD]

You cannot serve a FLAT serve conti grip without pronating.

 

[tennis_eel]

You cannot serve a FLAT serve conti grip without pronating.

Here we go....
Explain how you can hit a kicker or a slice serve, without pronating, so your palm and racquet face can face the court.

 

[LeeD]

You can chop at the ball leading with the edge of the racket, not pronate whatsoever, and use your forward moving body to expose the strings to the ball, hitting a topspin, top/slice, or top/twist second serve.
That's what I do.
And for my first flat serve, I can hold the racket backhand side of conti and still hit it with huge distracting POP. That is with lots of pronation.
Oh, and nobody thinks my second serve is a pansy, at any level up to 5.5.
Everyone hits the ball a little differently. I used to pronate to hit my second serves, but I found it less consistent than just purely chopping at it.

 

[tennis_eel]

You can chop at the ball leading with the edge of the racket, not pronate whatsoever, and use your forward moving body to expose the strings to the ball, hitting a topspin, top/slice, or top/twist second serve.
That's what I do.
And for my first flat serve, I can hold the racket backhand side of conti and still hit it with huge distracting POP. That is with lots of pronation.
Oh, and nobody thinks my second serve is a pansy, at any level up to 5.5.
Everyone hits the ball a little differently. I used to pronate to hit my second serves, but I found it less consistent than just purely chopping at it.

So your saying... the edge of your racquet... leads into the ball... and does not turn around. How do you follow through?? Where does your follow through go? When you start following through, your palm starts to face the ground thereby creating pronation.

Like... my second serve is no pansy either but I 100% pronate on all my serves and I am still able to hit kick and slice. It's just the way I pronate.

If I hit flat, my palm goes in behind the ball and out a lot straighter toward my target. When I hit kick, I hit up a lot more behind the ball and pronate out to the right a lot further and a lot higher. And when I slice around the side of the ball my palm helps my racquet face around the side of the ball and again, pronates more out to the right...

I agree that your racquet needs to pronate a lot less to hit slice, but if your racquet face is pointing to the fence the whole time... thats where the ball will end up going as well.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Which one is faster?

Why do you ask??? Is it really important? Never gave it any thought. I would think that the rotational inertia of the shoulder rotating is somewhat greater than that of the forearm pronating or supinating. If that is true, it would take longer to get the shoulder to rotate than the forearm.

I guess they aren't mutually exclusive. If you supinate your forearm with a racquet in your hand, your shoulder will follow.

That is often the case but it doesn't necessarily need to happen this way. With a racket in hand, the forearm can supinate without any shoulder rotation. Likewise, it is possible for the shoulder to rotate without any forearm rotation at all.

 

[toly]

Forehand - pronation and shoulder internal rotation

Toly, I will go on a limb on this one: shoulder beats the forearm anytime!

Why do you ask??? Is it really important? Never gave it any thought. I would think that the rotational inertia of the shoulder rotating is somewhat greater than that of the forearm pronating or supinating. If that is true, it would take longer to get the shoulder to rotate than the forearm.

Figure 1 Nadal forehand
Nadal straightens out his arm. When he pronates, this motion produces brushing action only (racquet string bed stays in vertical arrangement) and hence, generates the topspin component of the racquet speed (angular speed Ω1). In this case (straight arm), shoulder internal rotation also creates just topspin component (angular speed Ω2). The total topspin angular rate (Ωt) will be equal Ωt = Ω1+ Ω2. Nadal can utilize both of these motions to create extreme topspin and as a result, maximize his forehand consistency.
Let’s analyze Djokovic forehand.
.

Figure 2 Djokovic forehand
Djokovic keeps the elbow in bend position; it is big difference compare to Nadal straight arm. Djokovic still can use pronation to create topspin (Ω1), but he cannot use the shoulder internal rotation. Because, this motion will close the racket’s face, or produce just flat component of the racquet's speed. He just cannot create second component (Ω2) of the topspin. If Ω2 >> Ω1 it would be very bad idea to lose it. But, if Ω2 << Ω1, we can ignore second topspin component. First of all, we should know something about Ω1 and Ω2, in order to build the best forehand routine.

 

[LeeD]

TennisEel...
I'm not saying every tennis player uses my service motion. I used to pronate a little on slices and topspins, but abandoned that like 20 years ago.
I slice like a chopping motion. If my body is static, like NOT moving forwards, the ball just gets chopped, goes nowhere fast, and barely gets to the net. However, I'm a S/V'er, so second serves get huge forward body momentum, so the forward momentum moves my racket into hitting position and gives it's forward pace (my second serves poke in around 70 mph).
I can certainly pronate some if I adopt a conti to eBACKhand grip, but my concern is the next shot, the volley, and that shot works better with conti towards eFOREhand.
See the reasoning? I can hit most any shot with most any grip, but I have to choose based on what I expect coming BACK to me.
A pronating conti to eFOREHAND grip is too flat and too fast, not enough spin, not enough percentage for me.
A pronated conti to eBACKhand grip is the wrong grip FOR ME, to start a point in NML.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Why do you ask??? Is it really important? Never gave it any thought. I would think that the rotational inertia of the shoulder rotating is somewhat greater than that of the forearm pronating or supinating. If that is true, it would take longer to get the shoulder to rotate than the forearm...

That is often the case but it doesn't necessarily need to happen this way. With a racket in hand, the forearm can supinate without any shoulder rotation. Likewise, it is possible for the shoulder to rotate without any forearm rotation at all.

Interesting stuff, toly. Where did you find that analysis?

Note that I said that I suspected that the shoulder might take longer to get the rotating than the forearm. I did not say anything about the top angular speed (or the % contribution) of these 2 components.

 

[toly]

Interesting stuff, toly. Where did you find that analysis?

I found the analysis in my head.

Note that I said that I suspected that the shoulder might take longer to get the rotating than the forearm. I did not say anything about the top angular speed (or the % contribution) of these 2 components.

And this is very bad, because I’m still not able to find any particular data about this stuff.

 

[bhupaes]

Figure 1 Nadal forehand
Nadal straightens out his arm. When he pronates, this motion produces brushing action only (racquet string bed stays in vertical arrangement) and hence, generates the topspin component of the racquet speed (angular speed Ω1). In this case (straight arm), shoulder internal rotation also creates just topspin component (angular speed Ω2). The total topspin angular rate (Ωt) will be equal Ωt = Ω1+ Ω2. Nadal can utilize both of these motions to create extreme topspin and as a result, maximize his forehand consistency.
Let’s analyze Djokovic forehand.
.
Figure 2 Djokovic forehand
Djokovic keeps the elbow in bend position; it is big difference compare to Nadal straight arm. Djokovic still can use pronation to create topspin (Ω1), but he cannot use the shoulder internal rotation, because this motion will close the racket’s face. He just cannot create second component (Ω2) of the topspin. If Ω2 >> Ω1 it would be very bad idea to lose it. But, if Ω2 << Ω1, we can ignore second topspin component. First of all, we should know something about Ω1 and Ω2, in order to build the best forehand routine.

Well, now you're talking about the forehand... my comment was in the context of the 1hbh. Nevertheless, I feel pretty strongly that in both of the cases you have shown above the major contributor to spin is the more powerful shoulder rotation component plus the contribution from the biceps pulling the racquet up and across and causing the elbow to bend. It is simply because these movements are controlled by muscles that are much more powerful than the muscles involved in pure forearm rotation. Just try performing the movements in isolation to get a sense of what I am saying.

 

[tennis_eel]

Ok I am positive that 99% of this board does not know what pronation is. The only time I can think of pronation being used on a forehand is maybe on a follow through.

The ITF describes pronation as "palm in, palm out, palm down". When does this ever occur on a forehand drive? On a forehand your racquet connects and pushes toward a target using palm guidence. Palm guidance determines where the ball goes. Palm faces up, ball goes up etc.

Pronation has no place in a discussion about forehands and backhands.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Ok I am positive that 99% of this board does not know what pronation is. The only time I can think of pronation being used on a forehand is maybe on a follow through.

The ITF describes pronation as "palm in, palm out, palm down". When does this ever occur on a forehand drive? On a forehand your racquet connects and pushes toward a target using palm guidence. Palm guidance determines where the ball goes. Palm faces up, ball goes up etc.

Pronation has no place in a discussion about forehands and backhands.

Incorrect.

Pronation and supination are rotations of the forearm (and foot) as I stated previously. Those palm orientations (palm movements) are normal results of rotations of the forearm and/or the shoulder.

Take a look at the FH g'stroke. The forearm often goes thru a sequence of pronation and supination (and perhaps some shoulder rotations) just on the takeback alone for elite players. If the racket face is appreciably closed at the start of the forward swing but nearly square at contact, the forearm supinates to accomplish this. The pronation that you see on the follow-thru actually starts just before contact with the ball (and is not just an unrelated artifact of the follow-thru).
.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I found the analysis in my head.


And this is very bad, because I’m still not able to find any particular data about this stuff.

You might try digging into the books and scholarly articles by some of the PhD's in the field of tennis biomechanics. This would include people like E. Paul Roetert, Duane Knudson, Todd S. Ellenbecker, Jack L. Groppel and others. (Don't know if Groppel has done much research or writing in the field in the past decade or so tho'). Perhaps you could use the following as a starting point:

cross-fitllc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Biomechanics-of-the-Tennis-Groundstrokes.pdf


http://www.itftennis.com/coaching/publications/powerpoints/english/biomechanics.asp
.

 

[tennis_eel]

I understand that pronation of the forearm may occur at the end of a forehand.

However, if you were trying to teach someone to hit a ball, would you be mentioning pronation at all? Going out and thinking of how much I have pronated on my forehand is not something that is going to make me a better tennis player.

This thread should simply be renamed the marvels of the follow through.

 

[LeeD]

I suspect "teaching someone to hit the ball" is world's different from teaching someone "the modern forehand".
The former, especially if subject was not ball trained, keep racketface vertical throughout the entire stroke, like McEnroe.
The latter, pick any top 1,000 pro for your model.

 

[OrangeOne]

Take a look at the FH g'stroke. The forearm often goes thru a sequence of pronation and supination (and perhaps some shoulder rotations) just on the takeback alone for elite players. If the racket face is appreciably closed at the start of the forward swing but nearly square at contact, the forearm supinates to accomplish this. The pronation that you see on the follow-thru actually starts just before contact with the ball (and is not just an unrelated artifact of the follow-thru).

Yeah, but here's the thing: you don't teach tennis by talking about the rotation of the forearm. You don't teach topspin by saying "pronate a little more as you contact, and then more after contact". You just don't. Pronation happens as a result of the outcomes you're requesting.

You use language like "close the racquet face", "add some roll over the ball".

Put another way, I have a student who stands too close to the ball, which results in all sorts of bad things happening. So I tell him to "not get as close to the ball", to "extend his arm and then give himself room", etc.

I could just as easily say "add some shoulder abduction", "use you abductors to move your racquet away from the body"... but would I? This thread seems to say that I would. Odd.

However, if you were trying to teach someone to hit a ball, would you be mentioning pronation at all?

No. Never have, and in the context of a groundstroke, likely never will.

I suspect "teaching someone to hit the ball" is world's different from teaching someone "the modern forehand".

Semantic nonsense. Teaching someone to hit the ball can be applied at any level.

The latter, pick any top 1,000 pro for your model.

Yup. I'm still not going to be talking about the contraction of Pronator Teres.

 

[LeeD]

Right, teaching a beginner a forehand is the same as teaching StefanEdberg how to improve his forehand.

 

[OrangeOne]

Right, teaching a beginner a forehand is the same as teaching StefanEdberg how to improve his forehand.

a. That's a mighty stretch of a reply there. Thanks for looking at the substance of the post.

b. If we're including improving the forehands of grand slam winners here, I'm willing to say that everyone here is out of the debate.

In all reality, I'd still think the most you'd hear would be "look here, Stefan, you're leaving the racquet face a little too open at this point in the swing".

Of course, that assumes that one can or would even change the stroke mechanics of a player who has a few million repetitions of it stored in their head and muscles, and that's an assumption bigger than my forehand.

Side-note: Why can you not write the name of a pro with a space between it? I've seen you quote pros before and condensethem. It'sodd.