The Mixed Up Warm-Up

Cawlin said:
Oh yeah, you're a much better player than I am and playing at a much higher level than I am (obviously). Things in the 3.5/7.0 mixed world seem to be quite different from what you're describing (based on my own experience, anyway).
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Well, then you and @Cindysphinx have common ground since she's a 3.5 [former 4.0] and has plenty of MXDs experience. She doesn't appear to have the same attitude as your partners, though. Maybe you two ought to join forces.

Regardless of level, though, I've had partners in local park matches blame me for the loss even though I was clearly the better player and doing the lion's share of the work. Maybe I was only doing 75% instead of 90%. I just nod my head and note that flaw in judgment for when I'm on the other side of the net.
 
Cawlin said:
Yeah, I hear you, and Cindy and I seem to agree on most things, and I think she would make a fine partner from whom I could likely learn a lot. Though I think she is misunderstanding me in this thread, and i can't blame her for that. Women have to put up with a lot of sh*t in the mixed world from dipsh*it guys so I'm sure her reaction to me is more reflexive based on that.

With that said, there aren't very many Cindys around me, and nowadays, I only put myself in our mixed lineup if the only other choice is to default the line. There's just too much drama and I am happier trying to create a good playing experience via administrative means and kind words and support for my friends on the team than I am actually sinking the personal emotional energy into playing mixed matches.
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It sounds like your partners are more like Becky, the name Cindy always uses when talking about a negative trait of one of her partners/opponents.

You've got a great attitude; the more there are like you and the less like Becky, the better the game becomes.

[To be fair to your partners, maybe it's just an education thing? Their understanding of how high-level doubles is played is lacking; maybe they're not even aware that there are different ways to play? Maybe they're just set in their ways after many years. If so, there's a chance that you could educate them a bit [tread carefully, though: some may interpret it as just another know-it-all trying to show off. I find that I can tell fairly quickly whether someone is open to suggestion.]]
 
Can i jump into the middle of this love-fest? :)

I think some of the frustration with weak-serving partners stems from a rather rigid view of doubles. Let me tell you about a recent mixed 7.0 match.

Opposing guy had a blazing-but-inconsistent forehand. I'm serving to him in the ad court. He takes my serve and *rips* it at my partner -- easy point for them. Then it happened a second time.

OK, I thought. This is going to be an issue. Nobody at our level could be expected to volley a ball hit that hard with that much spin. I either needed to serve way better, or I needed to find the guy's BH. Well, the idea that I would suddenly find 20 MPH more mid-match is silly, and the idea that he could not run around my serve to drill my partner again was zero.

So I pulled my partner off of the net.

The result was that we held my serve throughout the match, no problem. When the guy couldn't assassinate my partner at net, he made mistakes trying to smoke us at the baseline. We would make him hit some balls and find a way to win the point -- finding his BH, lobbing his partner, outlasting him. Every now and then my partner would line up at the net (I wasn't sure whether he disagreed with the strategy or just forgot), and every time I asked him to move back to the baseline. We won.

So. If your partner has a weak serve and you're feeling like poaching will be a challenge, consider your other options. You might do better mixing things up in another way rather than believing that the only way to play good doubles is for the server to hit a strong serve and the net player to poach off of it.
 
Cindysphinx said:
Can i jump into the middle of this love-fest? :)

I think some of the frustration with weak-serving partners stems from a rather rigid view of doubles. Let me tell you about a recent mixed 7.0 match.

Opposing guy had a blazing-but-inconsistent forehand. I'm serving to him in the ad court. He takes my serve and *rips* it at my partner -- easy point for them. Then it happened a second time.

OK, I thought. This is going to be an issue. Nobody at our level could be expected to volley a ball hit that hard with that much spin. I either needed to serve way better, or I needed to find the guy's BH. Well, the idea that I would suddenly find 20 MPH more mid-match is silly, and the idea that he could not run around my serve to drill my partner again was zero.

So I pulled my partner off of the net.

The result was that we held my serve throughout the match, no problem. When the guy couldn't assassinate my partner at net, he made mistakes trying to smoke us at the baseline. We would make him hit some balls and find a way to win the point -- finding his BH, lobbing his partner, outlasting him. Every now and then my partner would line up at the net (I wasn't sure whether he disagreed with the strategy or just forgot), and every time I asked him to move back to the baseline. We won.

So. If your partner has a weak serve and you're feeling like poaching will be a challenge, consider your other options. You might do better mixing things up in another way rather than believing that the only way to play good doubles is for the server to hit a strong serve and the net player to poach off of it.
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Good problem-solving.

I suggested this [among other things] in post 79:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/the-mixed-up-warm-up.637307/post-13128718

"Again, no one ever wrote that partners should abandon responsibility. If my serve is weak relative to the opponents' returns, then that's a problem we have to work out. My serve isn't suddenly going to improve so we have to try things: different formations, different placement, different spin, etc. It's not just the server's responsibility, IMO: I as the net man have to do everything I can to help my server partner out."
 
Cindysphinx said:
You know, I was thinking about this bit. What is the problem with returning in ladies 3.5/4.0 doubles?

Sure, many don't know how to block back a strong serve. True.

But I don't think that is the biggest issue. The biggest issue is that a lot of returners treat every serve the same way, and they treat every set of opponents the same way.

What I mean is that it is important to be capable of returning the serve from behind the baseline, if the serve requires that. And it is also important to be capable of returning the serve from just behind the service line, if the serve requires that. And everything in between.

At my level, there are a lot of serve return errors made simply because the returner doesn't know where to be. Say you have a weak server and an active net player. The last place you want to be is standing on the baseline. That situation calls for you to stand in closer, either slicing or hitting/blocking on the rise. How about if the server follows the serve in? That's another time you should be returning from closer to the service line rather than way back. What if the server has a lot of spin on the serve? Gotta return from closer in to cut off the angles. How many times have I seen a partner standing a foot behind the baseline to receive a cupcake serve, then have an emergency on her hands trying to reach the serve -- only to position the same way for the next serve?

Even more valuable than being able to slice or block a return is being able to return in a few different ways. It makes sense to me, you know? All serves are not alike, so why do so many of us only know how to return one way?
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I think you are a 4.5 mind trapped in a 3.5/4.0 body.
 
travlerajm said:
I think you are a 4.5 mind trapped in a 3.5/4.0 body.
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Agreed. She thinks a lot more deeply about things than the average 3.5 ladies doubles player [from what I observe, there is not a lot going on in the way of communication, moving with one's partner, strategy, formations, etc] at that level. I think it would be cool to play a MXD match with her.
 
Cindysphinx said:
I’m wondering whether there is a preferred way to handle the warm up in mixed.

I usually play the deuce court. Often the player opposite me during warmups is the opposing man. If I warm up with him, I will get a chance to experience his faster-paced and heavier ball, which could help me get used to it during the match. On the other hand, he will get to see that I cannot handle his ball very well.

Sometimes I have switched over to the ad side for the warm-up to warm up with the opposing woman (so the men warm up with one another). This has the advantage of my being able to evaluate her style, which will help me decide how to play to her.

What do you think? Is it better to have the genders warm up against one another, or just have players warm up on the side they will receive on during the match?
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I always play ad court in mixed. I strongly prefer to warm up in my usual territory. Since 80-90% of mixed teams seem have the dude playing ad court, and the majority of teams don’t bother switching sides for warm-up, it means I am warming up against a 3.5/4.0 gal most of the time. I feel like this gives me an advantage because I like to size up her volley and overhead skills - where she stands at the net and how she handles low balls, high balls, spins, pace, and bloops will dictate how I play against her, as I already know going in the match will be decided by the me-vs-her match-up.

In Cindy’s case, I think the mixed-gender warm-up scenario may give her a similar edge because she seems to approach the warm-up and opponent size-up with an analytical mindset, and most 4.0/4.5 guys won’t be doing the same to her.
 
Cindysphinx said:
If I partnered with one of you TT guys, you had better be prepared to cover the whole court!
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I have 3 things I expect from my mixed partner. Mobility is not one of them. If she can do these 3 things well, she and I will be very successful as a mixed team:

1. Fearlessness in playing the net from an offensive position close enough to the net to touch it. Please resist the urge to back up. This applies not only on my service points, but on my returns as well. Start my return point draped over the net and I will set you up for the sharply angled kill.

2. Ability to keep the serve low. Please save the topspin for your ladies’ matches. Slice is ok. A serve that sits up might get me killed, or worse, allow a decent returner to step in to the service line and poke the ball past me and turn me into a helpless spectator. A slow and low waiter style serve that bounces knee high will suffice just fine and let me have a poaching field day. Do this and we can consistently hold your serve, and holding the gal’s serve is a key to mixed.

3. Ability to step in and return the opposing lady’s soft serves well. It’s a lot more important for you to focus on this skill than for you to worry about returning the opposing guy’s serve. We can break the guy’s serve without you getting a return in play, because the highly leveraged no-ad deuce point will be on my side. I need more help from you to break the lady, and breaking the lady is a key to mixed.
 
travlerajm said:
I have 3 things I expect from my mixed partner. Mobility is not one of them. If she can do these 3 things well, she and I will be very successful as a mixed team:

1. Fearlessness in playing the net from an offensive position close enough to the net to touch it. Please resist the urge to back up. This applies not only on my service points, but on my returns as well. Start my return point draped over the net and I will set you up for the sharply angled kill.

2. Ability to keep the serve low. Please save the topspin for your ladies’ matches. Slice is ok. A serve that sits up might get me killed, or worse, allow a decent returner to step in to the service line and poke the ball past me and turn me into a helpless spectator. A slow and low waiter style serve that bounces knee high will suffice just fine and let me have a poaching field day. Do this and we can consistently hold your serve, and holding the gal’s serve is a key to mixed.

3. Ability to step in and return the opposing lady’s soft serves well. It’s a lot more important for you to focus on this skill than for you to worry about returning the opposing guy’s serve. We can break the guy’s serve without you getting a return in play, because the highly leveraged no-ad deuce point will be on my side. I need more help from you to break the lady, and breaking the lady is a key to mixed.
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Mobility is not the issue. It’s shot quality. I just don’t wind up and smoke the ball like a young guy can.

I’ll be 58 this year. Did you hear that, 58! I can’t even believe it. But it means I will not overpower anyone, ever. I rely on spin and (lately) placement.

But I have a burning desire to improve the weight on my FH. I have been working on it for years, and every now and then the stars align and I really pop one. Each summer when lessons are cheap I re-up with my pro, only to be felled by injury or by life.

This is my year, though. I am so close!

In the meantime, you will have to cover the court because I am reluctant to take chances in mixed. I will, however, do a nice job with the woman’s serve. Unless the guy is poaching and gets in my head.
 
Cindysphinx said:
Mobility is not the issue. It’s shot quality. I just don’t wind up and smoke the ball like a young guy can.
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Young guys wind up and smoke the ball and they also wind up and hit the back fence. At most rec levels, the winner is typically the side that makes fewer errors.

I videod a match and did stats: my winner - UE differential was -18, which is horrible but my opponent's was -20 [I barely won the match].

I’ll be 58 this year. Did you hear that, 58! I can’t even believe it. But it means I will not overpower anyone, ever. I rely on spin and (lately) placement.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if I've ever won a match against a peer [same NTRP/UTR] by overpowering them or hitting tons of winners.

I'd much rather have a partner who is controlled than one who randomly hits winners and errors.

But I have a burning desire to improve the weight on my FH. I have been working on it for years, and every now and then the stars align and I really pop one. Each summer when lessons are cheap I re-up with my pro, only to be felled by injury or by life.

This is my year, though. I am so close!

In the meantime, you will have to cover the court because I am reluctant to take chances in mixed. I will, however, do a nice job with the woman’s serve. Unless the guy is poaching and gets in my head.
Click to expand...

I have no problem covering the court. Just attack everything you can get your racquet on while at net and don't apologize for getting burned DTL occasionally. Controlling the middle is like having Boardwalk and Park Place; controlling the alleys is like having Mediterranean and Baltic.
 
Cindysphinx said:
Mobility is not the issue. It’s shot quality. I just don’t wind up and smoke the ball like a young guy can.

I’ll be 58 this year. Did you hear that, 58! I can’t even believe it. But it means I will not overpower anyone, ever. I rely on spin and (lately) placement.

But I have a burning desire to improve the weight on my FH. I have been working on it for years, and every now and then the stars align and I really pop one. Each summer when lessons are cheap I re-up with my pro, only to be felled by injury or by life.

This is my year, though. I am so close!

In the meantime, you will have to cover the court because I am reluctant to take chances in mixed. I will, however, do a nice job with the woman’s serve. Unless the guy is poaching and gets in my head.
Click to expand...


Id be interested in seeing your progress this summer

Placement and shot angle outweigh pace most of the time
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Young guys wind up and smoke the ball and they also wind up and hit the back fence. At most rec levels, the winner is typically the side that makes fewer errors.

I videod a match and did stats: my winner - UE differential was -18, which is horrible but my opponent's was -20 [I barely won the match].



I'm not sure if I've ever won a match against a peer [same NTRP/UTR] by overpowering them or hitting tons of winners.

I'd much rather have a partner who is controlled than one who randomly hits winners and errors.



I have no problem covering the court. Just attack everything you can get your racquet on while at net and don't apologize for getting burned DTL occasionally. Controlling the middle is like having Boardwalk and Park Place; controlling the alleys is like having Mediterranean and Baltic.
Click to expand...
This. When my 3.5 partner is draped over the net, I’d rather have her a little closer to the middle wherein she can take away the easiest shots for the other team. I especially love using Aussie as my base formation on my serve on deuce side - this places my lady in the center of the action where she can really cause problems from the net strap position.
 
Cindysphinx said:
Can i jump into the middle of this love-fest? :)

I think some of the frustration with weak-serving partners stems from a rather rigid view of doubles. Let me tell you about a recent mixed 7.0 match.

Opposing guy had a blazing-but-inconsistent forehand. I'm serving to him in the ad court. He takes my serve and *rips* it at my partner -- easy point for them. Then it happened a second time.

OK, I thought. This is going to be an issue. Nobody at our level could be expected to volley a ball hit that hard with that much spin. I either needed to serve way better, or I needed to find the guy's BH. Well, the idea that I would suddenly find 20 MPH more mid-match is silly, and the idea that he could not run around my serve to drill my partner again was zero.

So I pulled my partner off of the net.

The result was that we held my serve throughout the match, no problem. When the guy couldn't assassinate my partner at net, he made mistakes trying to smoke us at the baseline. We would make him hit some balls and find a way to win the point -- finding his BH, lobbing his partner, outlasting him. Every now and then my partner would line up at the net (I wasn't sure whether he disagreed with the strategy or just forgot), and every time I asked him to move back to the baseline. We won.

So. If your partner has a weak serve and you're feeling like poaching will be a challenge, consider your other options. You might do better mixing things up in another way rather than believing that the only way to play good doubles is for the server to hit a strong serve and the net player to poach off of it.
Click to expand...
Great strategy and you taught me something with this too, so thank you!

This also tells me that your serve is not what I would call a "weak" serve at all. Sure, the other guy had a strong (but as you say, inconsistent) forehand, but that's what it's like at 3.5 right? You run into players that may have a really good part of their game, but their game is possibly/probably really lacking somewhere else, or maybe in multiple areas. I would be the guy that had a strong serve and a strong (but potentially inconsistent forehand depending on the day we played). Your serve is not so weak that you had to worry about your opponents simply dropping the return over the net if you play two-back.

I might have asked you to make this guy prove to us that he could run around the backhand serve and hit that forehand winner, but if you say that he could/would have, I believe you.

I don't think any reasonable partner would ask for more at 3.5 from their serving partner. I know I wouldn't.

FYI, I'm 49, and I am often among the youngest of the people I play with.
 
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Cindysphinx said:
But I have a burning desire to improve the weight on my FH. I have been working on it for years, and every now and then the stars align and I really pop one. Each summer when lessons are cheap I re-up with my pro, only to be felled by injury or by life.

This is my year, though. I am so close!
Click to expand...

You should post a video of it on the “technique “ section. There’s probably 3 or 4 people that could break it down to
A few fundamental things to work at.
 
Yeah, I understand. I do not think posting a video would help -- I know what I am doing wrong.

The upper part of my body is fine. I don't even have to think about all of the pieces because they are committed to muscle memory: SW grip, left arm, finish over shoulder, shoulder turn.

The problems are all in the lower half, and of course these things are footwork-based. Specifically, I tend to not shift my weight to my front foot. Imagine hitting a FH with your left leg straight, almost acting like a brake. You'd be lucky if the ball went over the net at all. I have managed not to have my left leg/knee straight anymore, but I don't consistently transfer my weight. If I do it correctly, its a heavy topspin drive to the baseline. That is the ball I would need to hit consistently to compete at 4.0.

To fix this, I would need to address it to develop muscle memory, as I can't possibly be thinking about that during a match. That means undoing ten years of bad muscle memory: some lessons, practice with ball machine, drop feeding, and practice partner. All spring and summer and fall, every chance I got.

Trouble is, I lack the drive to do all of that. For one thing, it takes a whole lot of fitness work just to stay reasonably fit -- which takes time -- and that has to take priority. In 2015, I had knee surgery. In 2017, I dropped tennis and didn't play for nine months. In 2018, I made some progress but didn't practice as much as I should. So now it is 2019 -- will I go do these things from April to October and fix my FH once and for all?

Meh. Probably not.
 
travlerajm said:
I have 3 things I expect from my mixed partner. Mobility is not one of them. If she can do these 3 things well, she and I will be very successful as a mixed team:

1. Fearlessness in playing the net from an offensive position close enough to the net to touch it. Please resist the urge to back up. This applies not only on my service points, but on my returns as well. Start my return point draped over the net and I will set you up for the sharply angled kill.

2. Ability to keep the serve low. Please save the topspin for your ladies’ matches. Slice is ok. A serve that sits up might get me killed, or worse, allow a decent returner to step in to the service line and poke the ball past me and turn me into a helpless spectator. A slow and low waiter style serve that bounces knee high will suffice just fine and let me have a poaching field day. Do this and we can consistently hold your serve, and holding the gal’s serve is a key to mixed.

3. Ability to step in and return the opposing lady’s soft serves well. It’s a lot more important for you to focus on this skill than for you to worry about returning the opposing guy’s serve. We can break the guy’s serve without you getting a return in play, because the highly leveraged no-ad deuce point will be on my side. I need more help from you to break the lady, and breaking the lady is a key to mixed.
Click to expand...

#1 is my favorite thing about my mixed partner. She is completely and utterly fearless at net. I don't think even Jack Sock's forehand would make her back up an inch. Guy's will try to pick on her until she puts away three or four of their hardest forehands, then they have to start playing back to me. The only thing that really works against us with her up there is a great top spin lob over her head (she's tiny) but A. very few people can do that shot at our level and B. I can serve from closer to the T to ensure I can get over to it if needed.

She's also very good at #3. She'll either smoke a forehand back to the girl, or lob over the guy's head, forcing the girl to move over and then it's usually poach city for me.
 
Cindysphinx said:
... because I am reluctant to take chances in mixed.
Click to expand...
I am relatively new to mixed, but I see this attitude very often unfortunately. I don’t expect my partner to be all solid every time, I wish that ladies would be much more agressive, take chances and go for winners rather than just trying to get the ball back and expect the guy to somehow find a genius way to win the point.

In an extreme example, a first-time partner lady tells me just seconds from the start of the match “Don’t worry, I am going to stay out of your way, you do your thing.” I did not have a chance to even respond, and she kept her word, planted covering the alley the whole match. We lost obviously. I am not sure what she meant about ‘doing my thing.’
 
Ft.S said:
I am relatively new to mixed, but I see this attitude very often unfortunately. I don’t expect my partner to be all solid every time, I wish that ladies would be much more agressive, take chances and go for winners rather than just trying to get the ball back and expect the guy to somehow find a genius way to win the point.

In an extreme example, a first-time partner lady tells me just seconds from the start of the match “Don’t worry, I am going to stay out of your way, you do your thing.” I did not have a chance to even respond, and she kept her word, planted covering the alley the whole match. We lost obviously. I am not sure what she meant about ‘doing my thing.’
Click to expand...

It sounds like "you win the match and I'll try not to mess anything up".

Not exactly a winning philosophy when faced with stiff opposition. it's like running a 3-legged race with someone who expects you to do everything.
 
Yea, the mixed teams where the guy basically draws a little circle on the ground that the girl isn't allowed to leave never make it very far in the tournament. At our level, too many people can easily hit the giant holes that philosophy leaves on the court. If I'm thinking "let me do my thing" it's merely not trying a difficult shot that takes away an easier shot from me, like taking a shorter overhead off your back foot when I could have had a sitter forehand. But that's not necessarily restricted to mix. I don't want my men's partner taking sitter forehands away from me either, haha.
 
Ft.S said:
In an extreme example, a first-time partner lady tells me just seconds from the start of the match “Don’t worry, I am going to stay out of your way, you do your thing.” I did not have a chance to even respond, and she kept her word, planted covering the alley the whole match. We lost obviously. I am not sure what she meant about ‘doing my thing.’
Click to expand...

Oh, I know exactly what was going on there.

See, a lot of men who play mixed are not nice. They don't respect their female partners, and it is worse the larger the disparity between them.

The woman you describe was probably told many times by her male partner that he will take the overheads. That she shouldn't poach because he's "right there." That she shouldn't let them hit in her alley. That she should stay close to the net. If you hear that enough -- and I know I have heard it a lot -- it hurts your confidence. After a while, you have all of the belief of a puppy that has been kicked a few times.

I'm not saying she was right to say that and expect you to play the whole court. But she probably had her reasons for saying it, based on experience.
 
Cindysphinx said:
Oh, I know exactly what was going on there.

See, a lot of men who play mixed are not nice. They don't respect their female partners, and it is worse the larger the disparity between them.

The woman you describe was probably told many times by her male partner that he will take the overheads. That she shouldn't poach because he's "right there." That she shouldn't let them hit in her alley. That she should stay close to the net. If you hear that enough -- and I know I have heard it a lot -- it hurts your confidence. After a while, you have all of the belief of a puppy that has been kicked a few times.

I'm not saying she was right to say that and expect you to play the whole court. But she probably had her reasons for saying it, based on experience.
Click to expand...


I'm the opposite and I get everyone is different, if im playing mixed with a female pre warm up i alaays ask what their strength is and what they play best. I also stress that if they can go for a shot to just do so, ill do my best to cover and vice versa.

Thats the exact attitude I hate
 
Cindysphinx said:
Oh, I know exactly what was going on there.

See, a lot of men who play mixed are not nice. They don't respect their female partners, and it is worse the larger the disparity between them.

The woman you describe was probably told many times by her male partner that he will take the overheads. That she shouldn't poach because he's "right there." That she shouldn't let them hit in her alley. That she should stay close to the net. If you hear that enough -- and I know I have heard it a lot -- it hurts your confidence. After a while, you have all of the belief of a puppy that has been kicked a few times.

I'm not saying she was right to say that and expect you to play the whole court. But she probably had her reasons for saying it, based on experience.
Click to expand...

Reaaaallllly don't like playing against these guys in mixed.
 
Cindysphinx said:
See, a lot of men who play mixed are not nice. They don't respect their female partners, and it is worse the larger the disparity between them
Click to expand...

The problem I find is that in doubles there can be two types of players, those that understand doubles and those that don’t. People on this board are generally in the former group. When we get stuck with players that don’t understand positioning, movement, placement and strategy, it’s pretty frustrating.

So I’m not sure respect really comes into it. It’s really clashing of attitudes and play styles. Mixed with a dash of ego. I get more frustrated with most of my male doubles partners than most of my female partners. At least the women are willing to talk strategy for the most part.
 
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