The Most Exhausting Opponent to Play Against

zipplock

Hall of Fame
Hated playing 'hackers' because they hit underspin, and sidespin and I couldn't tee off on their shots. Others explained to me that's why it's easier to play well against good players, but you'll play poorly against 'bad' players. That seemed backwards. Shouldn't the point be to hit shots your opponent doesn't like?

In tennis I'll hear someone say he lost, but only because his opponent didn't play "right". That's so odd. I wonder if that happens in any other sport?
That should state "I lost because I couldn't adapt/keep my emotions under control". Ill be the first to say that I've lost to this type of player AND won against this type of player. Either result was on me, not the opponent or their style. Take some ownership.
 
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DeathStrike

Guest
That should state "I lost because I couldn't adapt/keep my emotions under control". Ill be the first to say that I've lost to this type of player AND won against this type of player. Either result was on me, not the opponent or their style. Take some ownership.
I used to lose against these opponents off and on until I upped my power + consistency and then they were all toast bar none. To make that step up involved a bit of dedication with training and fitness and a heavier racquet. If you can't get to the point of being able to strike the heavier ball against these guys then you have to do what Orange guy is doing. I think someone like the green guy will always inflict pain on medium/ low paced hitters.
 

AlexSV

Semi-Pro
I used to lose against these opponents off and on until I upped my power + consistency and then they were all toast bar none. To make that step up involved a bit of dedication with training and fitness and a heavier racquet. If you can't get to the point of being able to strike the heavier ball against these guys then you have to do what Orange guy is doing. I think someone like the green guy will always inflict pain on medium/ low paced hitters.
Orange shirt is hitting some really nice shots and putting it away when he is in position. I think he generally looks steady and patient on most points.

You're basically saying hit the ball harder and heavier. But that discounts the other person. Green shirt is putting a lot of balls in positions where hitting with extra pace is a low percentage shot. It also doesn't look like you could just hit through that guy.
 

davced1

Hall of Fame
He feeds off your pace but how will his strokes hold up if he doesn't get any? My experience when facing this type of player is to bring their own game to them. Don't hit with pace but draw them in to the net wit drop shots and then lob or pass them. Give him junk and test his patience. Will he eventually go for more on his shots than he can handle?
 

R1FF

Professional
There are trade-offs, though. The more spin, the less speed, so some of the racquet head speed you generate is lost through the spin. Also, to get topspin you must swing low-to-high, the steeper your swing the more difficult to avoid a mis-hit. So is it worth the trade-offs? Depends on the player. It takes a lot of energy to give it topspin and still have pace. I think it can work out for young, fit players. Older players might prefer hitting flat, with occasional side-spin to disrupt opponents rythm.
I was in disagreement with you on TS until this post. I see what you’re saying now regarding energy usage by older players.

Doesnt negate the bebefits of TS tho.

A deep ball that rises hard off the bounce is high %, creates lotsa errors or weak returns, and at worst doesn’t allow a good opponent to take an offensive shot back.
 
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DeathStrike

Guest
Orange shirt is hitting some really nice shots and putting it away when he is in position. I think he generally looks steady and patient on most points.

You're basically saying hit the ball harder and heavier. But that discounts the other person. Green shirt is putting a lot of balls in positions where hitting with extra pace is a low percentage shot. It also doesn't look like you could just hit through that guy.
Orange guy is giving him medium paced balls and plenty of time to think about his next shot, the simple effect of a faster strike is the reaction time is reduced and what he can create with that kind of ball won't be as good. You can definitely 'hit through' this kind of player as I've done it.
 

R1FF

Professional
Because the pros like to use it.

The thing about topspin is that it has some good uses. It helps if you want to rip the ball hard, it helps if you want to roll a short angle, it helps for hitting passing shots and dippers, and it helps for making moonballs bounce higher and more vertically.

The problem is that 90% of the time, rec players are using topspin for slow-to-medium paced rally balls a few feet above the net. With these types of shots, a flat shot or a slice shot is actually superior tactically, and the topspin just makes life easier for your opponent. The topspin slows it down and makes it take longer to get there, so your opponent has more time to set up. And the higher bounce makes it easier for your opponent to attack.
Only if the ball is short.

TS with depth gives most rec players fits. Even without pace.
 

socallefty

Legend
If a player is better than you, then they will beat you whatever their style is. If they serve or return much better or are more consistent than you and you don't have enough weapons to force errors, you will lose more than you win against that opponent. If an opponent is better mentally and strategically and figures out what point patterns work well against you, what serve locations cause you issues, what return position bothers you etc, and you can’t do the same, you will likely lose at all levels.

At lower levels, many players make errors on the run, make errors off low balls and don't have the ability to generate their own pace consistently off slow balls without making a lot of errors. If you don't have good footwork and good top-spin, you will make a lot of errors into the net when you are made to move, when you return low slices and when you are given low-pace balls against a fast opponent who forces you to hit good, deep shots into the corners to end points. Also, lower level players cannot place their serves accurately to take advantage of weaknesses, cannot punish slow serves and do not hit overheads well or volley well - so, they are susceptible to chipped returns, make return errors off fluffball serves and hate lobbers. This is why lower level players struggle against pushers/hackers/junk ballers/lobbers who can exploit these weaknesses and get frustrated. The truth is that their game is full of weaknesses that can be exploited due to lack of technique and footwork primarily and the only opponent they can beat is someone who makes unforced errors more rapidly than they do.

Advanced players at 4.5 and above don’t get frustrated by playing against this junker/pusher style if the other player‘s level is not better than theirs. They can figure out what serves, returns and point patterns bother the opponent and have enough tools to execute a successful game plan. If they still get beaten, they usually accept that the other player was better and don’t go home complaining about the style of the opponent - they know that their weapons plus shot tolerance and mental strength was not good enough on that day. When you play a junkballer/counterpuncher at a higher level, you just have to accept that it will be a longer match with long points and you have to be comfortable finishing points at the net to beat that style of play. If you are a pure baseliner, you will likely have a more difficult struggle even at higher levels.

It is frustrating to play an opponent who is better and who can exploit any weaknesses you have - does it matter if the opponent blows you off the court or if they slice and dice you to death? It is not enjoyable to be beaten soundly by anyone who can force errors from you and who makes it difficult to get errors from them or hit winners against them. If Federer breadsticks or bagels a player, I do not think it will be any less frustrating than being bagelled by Djokovic or Nadal or Gilles Simon or Santoro.

I think advanced players accept more easily that an opponent was better than them when they get beaten soundly as usually they are aware of what point patterns, serve locations etc, caused them issues during the match. They might not have been able to do anything about it, but they know how they got beat by the better player. At lower levels, players don’t even know what their many weaknesses are and what the opponent is doing to exploit them and they are more likely to complain about the opponent‘s style of play, the fact that they had a bad day and a myriad other excuses. If you ask an advanced player why they lost a match, they cane usually explain what happened strategically or on some big points. If you ask a lower-level player, they will usually attribute it to something they did or their own level of play on that day and rarely give credit to their opponent - if they do, it is only to complain about their opponent‘s style of play.

This is part of the learning process in tennis to become a good player. The better you get, you stop complaining about styles of play and you just identify the opponent‘s style of play early in a match and problem-solve to try to beat them. Of course, you accept that some style matchups will cause you more issues than others. Federer couldn’t beat Nadal consistently for a long time and everyone said it is just because it is a bad style matchup (lefty spinny FH to 1H BH) even though Federer had a great record against all other lefthanders. Federer moved to a bigger racquet, improved his BH technique and started hitting his BH more on the rise (like Djokovic with his two-hander) against Nadal and he has been unbeaten outside of clay against him for the last few years even though he is older and slower. It tells you that it is not about bad stylistic matchups, but about level of play and even the greatest players have to sometimes improve their technique and strategy to beat other good opponents. This is true at lower levels too and a recreational player should first try to analyze why they cannot generate pace off slow balls, why they make errors on low balls or when they are made to hit on the run, why they cannot hit great returns off easy serves, why they cannot locate their serves to their opponent‘s weakness, why they cannot put away overheads etc. Then, if they take lessons and improve their technique and footwork, they will start relishing playing opponents who hit slow, serve slow, lob a lot etc.
 

shamaho

Professional
Orange shirt is hitting some really nice shots and putting it away when he is in position. I think he generally looks steady and patient on most points.

You're basically saying hit the ball harder and heavier. But that discounts the other person. Green shirt is putting a lot of balls in positions where hitting with extra pace is a low percentage shot. It also doesn't look like you could just hit through that guy.
Tactically I think hitting harding is the wrong approach, because they NEED pace to easily use and redirect, when one uses much lower pace they'll have to attempt create it... and there is where problems start for them.....

As such, provided one has decent overheads & volleys, low bouncing slice approach shots in both wings... don't even need to be deep... then close in at the net, force them to pass you... if they pass 6 pts out of 10... then you're in trouble and have to adjust....
 
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DeathStrike

Guest
Tactically I think hitting harding is the wrong approach, because they NEED pace to easily use and redirect, when one uses much lower pace they'll have to attempt create it... and there is where problems start for them.....
Disagree taking off the pace makes it far easier for their slice game you are playing into their hands. At a lower pace he has all the time in the world, and at that speed he can be very accurate with his junk. There's a few things you could do against Green guy if you really wanted as you have so much time, you could literally do a vicous undercut forehand slice that would spin sharply away from the opponent. In fact if Green is reading all of this I'd advise him to incorporate that into his game. If you were being a dick drop shot him relentlessly and hammer the ball straight at him if he gets it over :happydevil:
 

shamaho

Professional
Disagree taking off the pace makes it far easier for their slice game you are playing into their hands. At a lower pace he has all the time in the world, and at that speed he can be very accurate with his junk. There's a few things you could do against Green guy if you really wanted as you have so much time, you could literally do a vicous undercut forehand slice that would spin sharply away from the opponent. In fact if Green is reading all of this I'd advise him to incorporate that into his game. If you were being a dick drop shot him relentlessly and hammer the ball straight at him if he gets it over :happydevil:
You left out my second part of the strategy :) apply pressure with your positioning

Also, if hit low bouncing slices and flat (ish) shots and varying also with high spin (not so much pace) instead of trying to hit hard, you'll have much better balance, don't require so much effort for recovery, etc

The perfect visual for this... is playing like Edberg ie. always sniffing out at every shot chances to position yourself at Net closing out angles and spaces. easier said than done yes yes....

Of course, like it has been said also, bring him to the net... although that's to passive for me... and might be risky because players like those have "unreadable" shots...

Anything but giving him a steady selection of baseline heavy shots that he can redirect with unreadable technique :) LOL "they" almost always have very good "wheels".
 

shamaho

Professional
Disagree taking off the pace makes it far easier for their slice game you are playing into their hands. At a lower pace he has all the time in the world, and at that speed he can be very accurate with his junk. There's a few things you could do against Green guy if you really wanted as you have so much time, you could literally do a vicous undercut forehand slice that would spin sharply away from the opponent. In fact if Green is reading all of this I'd advise him to incorporate that into his game. If you were being a dick drop shot him relentlessly and hammer the ball straight at him if he gets it over :happydevil:
But of course... it all depends on execution... the margins will become thinner for the one trying to take Net....
 

mucat

Hall of Fame
We're definitely seeing diferent players ;-) I'm seeing the one he can be....
Yes, we are definitely seeing different things.
Who knows what he could be, I just know he is damn good. The footwork and touch is ridiculous.
He is a 4.5 and by definition, a very good player. You just could not see pass the swing :)
 

FedGR

Professional
It seemed to me at times that orange guy was hitting the ball while rallying with barely more pace than green guy, it was weird watching the rallying for that reason. For me it's really a basic requirement to up the pace and angles against this type of player. @R1FF is right however that the orange guy deserves credit for his mental strength and fitness. He is taking the swings which drains more energy than the blocks and slices. I bet green wears opponents down physically, it's why you need to try and shorten the points get him on the back foot.
I agree with you on the fact that he could shorten the points a bit more. Either by coming to the net more often or by hitting flatter. I felt he was hitting too loopy at times giving him green shirt lots of time to slice balls back. However orange shirt guy was ahead in the match so whatever his strategy was, it was working. I would just personally love to see him hit a bit flatter, you would expect that from an ex-D1 guy. I guess it's also easy to talk strategy after the fact but when you play someone like him for the first time, it can mess up with your rhythm and focus.
 
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DeathStrike

Guest
Anything but giving him a steady selection of baseline heavy shots that he can redirect with unreadable technique :) LOL "they" almost always have very good "wheels".
I just speak from my personal experience how I ended up defeating these type of players. If they are facing slow / medium paced balls they have time to think about what they are going to do with the ball. Once you increase depth and pace it moves from 'what am I going to with this' to 'I need to get this back' and that's where their game falls apart.

I agree with you on the fact that he could shorten the points a bit more. Either by coming to the net more often or by hitting flatter. I felt he was hitting too loopy at times giving him green shirt lots of time to slice balls back. However orange shirt guy was ahead in the match so whatever his strategy was, it was working. I would just personally love to see him hit a bit flatter, you would expect that from an ex-D1 guy. I guess it's also easy to talk strategy after the fact but when you play someone like him for the first time, it can mess up with your rhythm and focus.
You made a great point there about flat hitting as well (y)
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
If I'm playing this guy, he's seeing a steady stream of serve & volley to his backhand and chip & charge to his backhand off of his serve. On his forehand side, he can at least change directions, hit flat, keep the ball low, and put up some decent lobs. But on the backhand side, it's strictly slice, the ball sits up for volleys, and there's no real threat of a lob.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
He feeds off your pace but how will his strokes hold up if he doesn't get any? My experience when facing this type of player is to bring their own game to them. Don't hit with pace but draw them in to the net wit drop shots and then lob or pass them. Give him junk and test his patience. Will he eventually go for more on his shots than he can handle?
Green’s slice forehand and slice backhand shots are basically a volley stroke. Since he practices his volley strokes on almost every ball during a rally, my guess is that his net game is pretty solid when he needs to use it.
 
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DeathStrike

Guest
If I'm playing this guy, he's seeing a steady stream of serve & volley to his backhand and chip & charge to his backhand off of his serve. On his forehand side, he can at least change directions, hit flat, keep the ball low, and put up some decent lobs. But on the backhand side, it's strictly slice, the ball sits up for volleys, and there's no real threat of a lob.
Hmmm you could be in danger with this tactic I think he'll lob you, I'd prefer hammering it to the backhand side and come in off that, or better still hammer it away from him make him do something with a pacey ball while on the move (if he gets to it)
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
Hmmm you could be in danger with this tactic I think he'll lob you, I'd prefer hammering it to the backhand side and come in off that, or better still hammer it away from him make him do something with a pacey ball while on the move (if he gets to it)
I'm 6'4", so it's tough to lob over me :) Plus, his backhand slice pops up enough that you wouldn't need to be on top of the net to deal with it. I would probably mix up my approach shots to his backhand, with some hard, flat shots and some slice so he couldn't get into a rhythm.
 
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DeathStrike

Guest
I'm 6'4", so it's tough to lob over me :) Plus, his backhand slice pops up enough that you wouldn't need to be on top of the net to deal with it. I would probably mix up my approach shots to his backhand, with some hard, flat shots and some slice so he couldn't get into a rhythm.
Well if you got good technique on serve you'd destroy this guy
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
I just want to again quote what the OP posted about green shirt...

USTA 4.5 Tennis: Self-taught player in green shirt is 7-4 in singles competition in the USTA 4.5 / NTRP 4.5 league for 2019 and 1-0 in 2020 in Atlanta. He played USTA 4.5 league in both Atlanta and Virginia. He also reached the final of a 300 points NTRP 4.5 Championship tournament in Virginia by defeating the #1 and #3 seeds in the second and third rounds. Green shirt played in the 3.5 league in 2012, 4.0 in 2014, and 4.5 since 2015. He started playing tennis at 32 years old.

...and my point in doing so isn't to suggest the guy is unbeatable, but to point out that he has success at 4.5 in a solid region. Many of his opponents might think/say they are going to do this or do that vs green shirt, but from his USTA record, green has still managed to have a respectable record.

Sure, certain styles of play should be able to overwhelm him, but someone talking strategy VS successfully implementing said strategy are not the same thing.

(truth- green would beat me handily. So would orange. However, I think I'd have a little more success vs orange's style. Green would slice me to death.)
 

FedGR

Professional
I just want to again quote what the OP posted about green shirt...

USTA 4.5 Tennis: Self-taught player in green shirt is 7-4 in singles competition in the USTA 4.5 / NTRP 4.5 league for 2019 and 1-0 in 2020 in Atlanta. He played USTA 4.5 league in both Atlanta and Virginia. He also reached the final of a 300 points NTRP 4.5 Championship tournament in Virginia by defeating the #1 and #3 seeds in the second and third rounds. Green shirt played in the 3.5 league in 2012, 4.0 in 2014, and 4.5 since 2015. He started playing tennis at 32 years old.

...and my point in doing so isn't to suggest the guy is unbeatable, but to point out that he has success at 4.5 in a solid region. Many of his opponents might think/say they are going to do this or do that vs green shirt, but from his USTA record, green has still managed to have a respectable record.

Sure, certain styles of play should be able to overwhelm him, but someone talking strategy VS successfully implementing said strategy are not the same thing.

(truth- green would beat me handily. So would orange. However, I think I'd have a little more success vs orange's style. Green would slice me to death.)
Quoted for emphasis.

--
7-4 at 4.5 as a self-taught player says everything.
 

J D

Semi-Pro
My take - this video demonstrates the importance of playing smart. Orange shirt is a really solid 4.5 but is not getting the most out of his game against this opponent. Green shirt has good hands, quick feet, and has turned consistency with beginner strokes into an art form. On paper, this still should be bagel and breadstick time. However, green knows how to get the most out of his game while orange is doing less with much more.

Some examples:
Serves - you aren't going to get a lot of service winners with someone that blocks the ball back well. Go for placement and spin instead of pace to get weaker returns.
Service returns - you have to make your opponent pay for a lower level serve at 4.5. Orange could stand a step to his backhand to get more forehand returns. He also should be returning to the corners.
Baseline - since green doesn't hit with pace but drop shots a lot, orange should set up a step inside the baseline. That way he can take time away from green and get to drop shots quicker. This will give him more options on approaches. He also needs to put green shirt on a bicycle, side to side, long to short. About the time green figures the pattern out, he can start hitting behind him. Even the most fit defensive rec player will start to break down in set 2.
Approach shots - orange is consistently breaking the cardinal rule, do not hit your approach shot cross court unless it's going to be a clean winner. He makes a minor adjustment and occasionally drop shots his approach. However, he doesn't take full advantage of approach shot variety. The point of hitting the approach deep is to take time away from your opponent. Green is fast and has almost no take back. Lack of time isn't hurting him in the least. Shorter approach shots and ones up the line angling away would be much more effective. Make green have to reach and hit up.
Net - Given how good his serve is, orange has a woefully lacking overhead. I have seen many 4.0's with good serves that could crack a nice overhead while backpedaling. Orange just blocks it back, and not even into the open court. Talk about turning over control of a point. The overheads weren't that deep. He could at least just retreat, bounce it, and hit an aggressive shot if not outright winner from there.

This would be a beat down if orange was as accomplished at his mental game as the physical one. It will come with time and experience. This is why old geezers like me can often embarrass younger, more physically gifted athletes.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
If I'm playing this guy, he's seeing a steady stream of serve & volley to his backhand and chip & charge to his backhand off of his serve. On his forehand side, he can at least change directions, hit flat, keep the ball low, and put up some decent lobs. But on the backhand side, it's strictly slice, the ball sits up for volleys, and there's no real threat of a lob.
Cool strategy. I bet no Atlanta 4.5 players have thought of that yet.
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
Cool strategy. I bet no Atlanta 4.5 players have thought of that yet.
Well, it said he's 7-4, so maybe 4 have :) In all seriousness, though, this guy's backhand is a serious liability. Unlike his forehand "chop" that you'd have to dig down to volley, his backhand slice floats up and should set up for pretty easy put-away volleys. And, as noted, he can't really lob with his backhand, which is why he sometimes tries to do forehand lobs on his backhand side with his off hand.

I'm not a flawless player by any means, but I salivate when I play a pusher with this type of backhand b/c I know it can't hurt me.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
Well, it said he's 7-4, so maybe 4 have :) In all seriousness, though, this guy's backhand is a serious liability. Unlike his forehand "chop" that you'd have to dig down to volley, his backhand slice floats up and should set up for pretty easy put-away volleys. And, as noted, he can't really lob with his backhand, which is why he sometimes tries to do forehand lobs on his backhand side with his off hand.

I'm not a flawless player by any means, but I salivate when I play a pusher with this type of backhand b/c I know it can't hurt me.
But he demonstrated the ability to hit topspin drive backhand passing shots when needed.
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
But he demonstrated the ability to hit topspin drive backhand passing shots when needed.
Let's see:

-at 0:26, orange shirt is at net w/a dropshot, and green shirt floats a slice backhand that's put away w/a volley winner​
-at 0:48, orange shirt hits a topspin approach that green shirt floats back w/an offhand forehand rather than a backhand; again, it's put away for a winner​
-at 1:06, orange shirt hits a topspin forehand down the line that leads to a floaty slice backhand to midcourt that's put away for a winner​
-at 1:36, orange shirt for some reason hits crosscourt rather than down the line and green shirt scoops a two handed backhand down the line that orange shirt lets go for a winner,​
-at 1:46, orange shirt for some reason slice approaches right at green shirt, who does hit a solid backhand passing shot​
-at 2:17, orange shirt comes in behind a drop shot to the backhand side that orange shirt can't reach​
-at 2:40, orange shirt hits a topspin approach shot winner to the backhand side​
-at 3:20, orange shirt slices to the backhand off a drop shot, leading to green shirt slicing a passing shot right at orange shirt, who hits a good volley that is lobbed back​
-at 3:57, orange shirt does a topspin approach to the backhand off of a short ball and green shirt scoops a weak backhand that green shirt puts away for a volley winner​
-at 4:05, orange shirt slices an approach shot to the backhand, green shirt floats a slice passing shot, and orange shirt wins the point w/a 1-2 volley combo​
-at 5:00, orange shirt comes in behind a dropshot to the backhand that green shirt can't get​
-at 5:08, orange shirt gets way too much air under a slice approach to the backhand, and green shirt is able to hit a nice passing shot​

I'll stop there. There are a couple of instances where green shirt hits a decent topspin drive backhand, namely once when orange shirt hits right at him and again when a he floats a slice approach. But, other than that, it's weak slice passing shots and scooped two handed backhands that sit up for green shirt. I'd expect that a player w/a solid approach shot and volleys would find much success attacking green shirt's backhand (and later targeting the forehand if/when green shirt starts cheating to the forehand side).
 
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travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
Let's see:

-at 0:26, orange shirt is at net w/a dropshot, and green shirt floats a slice backhand that's put away w/a volley winner​
-at 0:48, orange shirt hits a topspin approach that green shirt floats back w/an offhand forehand rather than a backhand; again, it's put away for a winner​
-at 1:06, orange shirt hits a topspin forehand down the line that leads to a floaty slice backhand to midcourt that's put away for a winner​
-at 1:36, orange shirt for some reason hits crosscourt rather than down the line and green shirt scoops a two handed backhand down the line that orange shirt lets go for a winner,​
-at 1:46, orange shirt for some reason slice approaches right at green shirt, who does hit a solid backhand passing shot​
-at 2:17, orange shirt comes in behind a drop shot to the backhand side that orange shirt can't reach​
-at 2:40, orange shirt hits a topspin approach shot winner to the backhand side​
-at 3:20, orange shirt slices to the backhand off a drop shot, leading to green shirt slicing a passing shot right at orange shirt, who hits a good volley that is lobbed back​
-at 3:57, orange shirt does a topspin approach to the backhand off of a short ball and green shirt scoops a weak backhand that green shirt puts away for a volley winner​
-at 4:05, orange shirt slices an approach shot to the backhand, green shirt floats a slice passing shot, and orange shirt wins the point w/a 1-2 volley combo​
-at 5:00, orange shirt comes in behind a dropshot to the backhand that green shirt can't get​
-at 5:08, orange shirt gets way too much air under a slice approach to the backhand, and green shirt is able to hit a nice passing shot​

I'll stop there. There are a couple of instances where green shirt hits a decent topspin drive backhand, namely once when orange shirt hits right at him and again when a he floats a slice approach. But, other than that, it's weak slice passing shots and scooped two handed backhands that sit up for green shirt. I'd expect that a player w/a solid approach shot and volleys would find much success attacking green shirt's backhand (and later targeting the forehand if/when green shirt starts cheating to the forehand side).
That’s why he’s not 5.0 yet.
 
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DeathStrike

Guest
Orange shirt has the capability to be 5.0, just needs to put some hard training in
 

Conrads

Rookie
I think green will make it to 5.0 before he dies. Orange will not.
orange shirt is a 5.0 rated player actually. Hes been 5.0 since graduating from college. many appeals down to 4.5 have been denied. Had a solid record at 5.0 for a few years after college then
stopped playing usta. They said he would have to lose at 5.0 to get bumped down or wait until age 40.
 

Vox Rationis

Professional
orange shirt is a 5.0 rated player actually. Hes been 5.0 since graduating from college. many appeals down to 4.5 have been denied. Had a solid record at 5.0 for a few years after college then
stopped playing usta. They said he would have to lose at 5.0 to get bumped down or wait until age 40.
These threads are always so much more amusing once the people's actual ratings are revealed.
 

time_fly

Hall of Fame
You know I have to say I have more respect for the Green Goblin as I watch more of this video, it would be interesting to see what a couple of months coaching and hard work could do to his game. If he developed a proper serve to go with the slice and dice it would actually be fascinating to watch him torture people :laughing:
I think Green Goblin is like a knuckleball pitcher. The knuckleball becomes less effective if you try add velocity to it. Forcing Green Goblin to use “real strokes” would probably destroy his game.
 

comeback

Hall of Fame
If a player is better than you, then they will beat you whatever their style is. If they serve or return much better or are more consistent than you and you don't have enough weapons to force errors, you will lose more than you win against that opponent. If an opponent is better mentally and strategically and figures out what point patterns work well against you, what serve locations cause you issues, what return position bothers you etc, and you can’t do the same, you will likely lose at all levels.

At lower levels, many players make errors on the run, make errors off low balls and don't have the ability to generate their own pace consistently off slow balls without making a lot of errors. If you don't have good footwork and good top-spin, you will make a lot of errors into the net when you are made to move, when you return low slices and when you are given low-pace balls against a fast opponent who forces you to hit good, deep shots into the corners to end points. Also, lower level players cannot place their serves accurately to take advantage of weaknesses, cannot punish slow serves and do not hit overheads well or volley well - so, they are susceptible to chipped returns, make return errors off fluffball serves and hate lobbers. This is why lower level players struggle against pushers/hackers/junk ballers/lobbers who can exploit these weaknesses and get frustrated. The truth is that their game is full of weaknesses that can be exploited due to lack of technique and footwork primarily and the only opponent they can beat is someone who makes unforced errors more rapidly than they do.

Advanced players at 4.5 and above don’t get frustrated by playing against this junker/pusher style if the other player‘s level is not better than theirs. They can figure out what serves, returns and point patterns bother the opponent and have enough tools to execute a successful game plan. If they still get beaten, they usually accept that the other player was better and don’t go home complaining about the style of the opponent - they know that their weapons plus shot tolerance and mental strength was not good enough on that day. When you play a junkballer/counterpuncher at a higher level, you just have to accept that it will be a longer match with long points and you have to be comfortable finishing points at the net to beat that style of play. If you are a pure baseliner, you will likely have a more difficult struggle even at higher levels.

It is frustrating to play an opponent who is better and who can exploit any weaknesses you have - does it matter if the opponent blows you off the court or if they slice and dice you to death? It is not enjoyable to be beaten soundly by anyone who can force errors from you and who makes it difficult to get errors from them or hit winners against them. If Federer breadsticks or bagels a player, I do not think it will be any less frustrating than being bagelled by Djokovic or Nadal or Gilles Simon or Santoro.

I think advanced players accept more easily that an opponent was better than them when they get beaten soundly as usually they are aware of what point patterns, serve locations etc, caused them issues during the match. They might not have been able to do anything about it, but they know how they got beat by the better player. At lower levels, players don’t even know what their many weaknesses are and what the opponent is doing to exploit them and they are more likely to complain about the opponent‘s style of play, the fact that they had a bad day and a myriad other excuses. If you ask an advanced player why they lost a match, they cane usually explain what happened strategically or on some big points. If you ask a lower-level player, they will usually attribute it to something they did or their own level of play on that day and rarely give credit to their opponent - if they do, it is only to complain about their opponent‘s style of play.

This is part of the learning process in tennis to become a good player. The better you get, you stop complaining about styles of play and you just identify the opponent‘s style of play early in a match and problem-solve to try to beat them. Of course, you accept that some style matchups will cause you more issues than others. Federer couldn’t beat Nadal consistently for a long time and everyone said it is just because it is a bad style matchup (lefty spinny FH to 1H BH) even though Federer had a great record against all other lefthanders. Federer moved to a bigger racquet, improved his BH technique and started hitting his BH more on the rise (like Djokovic with his two-hander) against Nadal and he has been unbeaten outside of clay against him for the last few years even though he is older and slower. It tells you that it is not about bad stylistic matchups, but about level of play and even the greatest players have to sometimes improve their technique and strategy to beat other good opponents. This is true at lower levels too and a recreational player should first try to analyze why they cannot generate pace off slow balls, why they make errors on low balls or when they are made to hit on the run, why they cannot hit great returns off easy serves, why they cannot locate their serves to their opponent‘s weakness, why they cannot put away overheads etc. Then, if they take lessons and improve their technique and footwork, they will start relishing playing opponents who hit slow, serve slow, lob a lot etc.
great explanation on why many players never advance
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
orange shirt is a 5.0 rated player actually. Hes been 5.0 since graduating from college. many appeals down to 4.5 have been denied. Had a solid record at 5.0 for a few years after college then
stopped playing usta. They said he would have to lose at 5.0 to get bumped down or wait until age 40.
I really enjoy the different match-ups and playing styles featured on the Tennis Troll channel. I've watched a ton of those videos. I'm amazed at all the beautiful courts and the assortment of players.

I knew that Orange Shirt guy (and he seems to wear orange in almost every video he is in) was a self-described ex-D1 player from a mid-major conference, so I suspected that he had been a 5.0 for awhile. I found it humorous that some people thought he sucked. In my opinion, he has a beautiful game, especially with that heavy spinning backhand. However, for some reason, I thought he was already in his 40s. Now I'm curious... what is his actual age?
 

junior74

Talk Tennis Guru
The guy with the good strokes has one major drawback in his game: The lack of serve placement. With such a consistent serve, he should definitely go closer to the lines - and get a lot of free points.
 

Conrads

Rookie
I really enjoy the different match-ups and playing styles featured on the Tennis Troll channel. I've watched a ton of those videos. I'm amazed at all the beautiful courts and the assortment of players.

I knew that Orange Shirt guy (and he seems to wear orange in almost every video he is in) was a self-described ex-D1 player from a mid-major conference, so I suspected that he had been a 5.0 for awhile. I found it humorous that some people thought he sucked. In my opinion, he has a beautiful game, especially with that heavy spinning backhand. However, for some reason, I thought he was already in his 40s. Now I'm curious... what is his actual age?
39, will be 40 next year thanks for the compliments on tennistroll.
 

sredna42

Hall of Fame

Subscribe. He deserves it. Only 5k subs is criminal, he has an awesome channel
 

Jono123

Rookie
Fun to watch. Green shirt appeared potentially better than he was playing, all slices and junk balls to the center of the court. His Achilles heel was apparent early on but not capitalised on. Namely, Short ball to bring him in. Pushers are baseline dwellers with high stamina and often the wing span to get to the extremities of the court. They dont like running in though. . My bet is the green shirt would win by a slim margin. Pushers make you try and play better than you are as you go for low margin shots in an attempt to win the point. All this guy is doing it dinking it back and hoping for a UE. He's 4.0 player at best.
 
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J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Fun to watch. Green shirt appeared potentially better than he was playing, all slices and junk balls to the center of the court. His Achilles heel was apparent early on but not capitalised on. Namely, Short ball to bring him in. Pushers are baseline dwellers with high stamina and often the wing span to get to the extremities of the court. They dont like running in though. . My bet is the green shirt would win by a slim margin. Pushers make you try and play better than you are as you go for low margin shots in an attempt to win the point. All this guy is doing it dinking it back and hoping for a UE. He's 4.0 player at best.
Except he's not. He has a winning record at 4.5, which makes him a 4.5 regardless of what you think of his game.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
This match showed a little more of his swagger. He is basically winning against 4.5 guys because he’s a much better athlete with better court coverage than his opponents, which is worth more than good stroke technique.
 
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