The most lopsided example of "pretty strokes" losing to ugly hack self-taught strokes?

#1
Does anyone have footage that would serve as a good example of this ?
One guy with perfect strokes, great serving, etc, looks like a great player
and getting crushed by a player who has grotesque strokes, dink serving, but hits everything in play.
This needs to be taught and focused on a lot more in player development
 
#4
Does anyone have footage that would serve as a good example of this ?
One guy with perfect strokes, great serving, etc, looks like a great player
and getting crushed by a player who has grotesque strokes, dink serving, but hits everything in play.
This needs to be taught and focused on a lot more in player development
I assume any of your match footage would demonstrate this mantra of yours, right? Post up.


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#5
Yea, I am neither profile.
My strokes are neither perfect, nor grotesque.
Same with my serve. My serve is ok, but I still can't even do vertical arm.
 
#9
Does anyone have footage that would serve as a good example of this ?
One guy with perfect strokes, great serving, etc, looks like a great player
and getting crushed by a player who has grotesque strokes, dink serving, but hits everything in play.
This needs to be taught and focused on a lot more in player development
maybe the guy with perfect strokes is not so perfect?


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#11
One guy with perfect strokes, great serving, etc, looks like a great player
and getting crushed by a player who has grotesque strokes, dink serving, but hits everything in play.
This has never happened, ever. If you've seen this you can be sure some sort of match-fixing was taking place. If one guy has "perfect strokes" and "looks like a great player", the other guy would have to be an X-Man in terms of speed and agility and also never miss a single ball to have even a hope of winning, let alone "crushing".
 
#12
Does anyone have footage that would serve as a good example of this ?
One guy with perfect strokes, great serving, etc, looks like a great player
and getting crushed by a player who has grotesque strokes, dink serving, but hits everything in play.
This needs to be taught and focused on a lot more in player development
My match last night was about as an extreme an example of that as can happen.

I didn’t start playing tennis competitively until relatively late in the game, at age 15. And I only took a handful of lessons - mostly I never worried about what my strokes looked like. I focused more on strategies to win matches.

Last night I played a match in a tournament. My opponent was a 17-yr-old junior who’d been taking lessons since he was 8 years old. I often see this kid drilling and playing points with the 5.0 teaching pro. He is not that athletic looking, but his forehand with his PD+ is heavy and smooth and aesthetically pleasing. It always looked like he was holding his own against the pro when they crush balls back and forth, so I was looking forward to seeing how well I matched up against this kid.

In the warm-up, I was a little off and was missing a lot of balls.

But then the match starts, and this kid’s strokes immediately self-destruct. I won 6-0, 6-1. I was just slicing and medvedeving the ball around, but keeping it in play. It was like he had a mental block about playing points in an actual match.
 
#13
My match last night was about as an extreme an example of that as can happen.

I didn’t start playing tennis competitively until relatively late in the game, at age 15. And I only took a handful of lessons - mostly I never worried about what my strokes looked like. I focused more on strategies to win matches.

Last night I played a match in a tournament. My opponent was a 17-yr-old junior who’d been taking lessons since he was 8 years old. I often see this kid drilling and playing points with the 5.0 teaching pro. He is not that athletic looking, but his forehand with his PD+ is heavy and smooth and aesthetically pleasing. It always looked like he was holding his own against the pro when they crush balls back and forth, so I was looking forward to seeing how well I matched up against this kid.

In the warm-up, I was a little off and was missing a lot of balls.

But then the match starts, and this kid’s strokes immediately self-destruct. I won 6-0, 6-1. I was just slicing and medvedeving the ball around, but keeping it in play. It was like he had a mental block about playing points in an actual match.
But this example is about someone who do not have a strong mentality, if he has the strokes but is unable to use them is not an issue of technique, is a mental issue.
 
#15
@travlerajm
Great example.
Trained junior vs. rec adult with decades of match play.
Exactly how did he self-destruct? Was he pushing? Or blasting?
Or was he a drill queen who could not return a slice?
It was the slice that seemed to vex him most.

Afterward, we played a third set, and I this time I gave him some pace. His groundstrokes jumped up two levels. He loved ripping it when I gave him faster shots.
He commented afterward that he needs to practice more against slice.

But mostly, for him it was mental. I learned to play tennis with the mentality that I need to hit whatever shot maximizes my chances of winning the point. He didn’t seem to be able to process in the moment what his level of stroke execution was, so he keep missing forehands instead of adjusting and trying something different.

My moonballs were one thing that he handled well during the match. He moonballed them back deep with good topspin. He also seemed to hit better when I came to net, giving him a target. But when he had time to think about the shot, he was bad.
 
#16
It was the slice that seemed to vex him most.

Afterward, we played a third set, and I this time I gave him some pace. His groundstrokes jumped up two levels. He loved ripping it when I gave him faster shots.
He commented afterward that he needs to practice more against slice.
it's somewhat funny, I also noticed recently that too many folks nowadays are being troubled by slice.
which is interesting, as in the past you wouldn't bother many people with slice.
 
#17
it's somewhat funny, I also noticed recently that too many folks nowadays are being troubled by slice.
which is interesting, as in the past you wouldn't bother many people with slice.
It's not something that is really taught extensively at tennis centers, mainly just a defensive slice. At the facility I used to teach at through college, only a few of the instructors would teach the slice as a weapon.
 
#18
This is a common occurrence in our area. 2 guys happen to be top level 4.5 players that are just great athletes with self taught strokes. They regularly beat teaching pros and top 4.5's that have excellent strokes.
 

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#19
My match last night was about as an extreme an example of that as can happen.

I didn’t start playing tennis competitively until relatively late in the game, at age 15. And I only took a handful of lessons - mostly I never worried about what my strokes looked like. I focused more on strategies to win matches.

Last night I played a match in a tournament. My opponent was a 17-yr-old junior who’d been taking lessons since he was 8 years old. I often see this kid drilling and playing points with the 5.0 teaching pro. He is not that athletic looking, but his forehand with his PD+ is heavy and smooth and aesthetically pleasing. It always looked like he was holding his own against the pro when they crush balls back and forth, so I was looking forward to seeing how well I matched up against this kid.

In the warm-up, I was a little off and was missing a lot of balls.

But then the match starts, and this kid’s strokes immediately self-destruct. I won 6-0, 6-1. I was just slicing and medvedeving the ball around, but keeping it in play. It was like he had a mental block about playing points in an actual match.
I guess I'm not aware of any boy that fits this description unless they had some shoulder injury when they were 12-13 and had to take a year off, then kinda got burned out then after 2nd year of high school, decided it might be fun to play tennis again. During the time where they would be building up their mental maturity, they weren't playing. But when they get back into it, they recall how good they were and continue to go for kill shots with their newfound height and strength.

But to your point, my son has played many opponents that have nicer form, hits harder, serves harder. He hits hard enough, has tons of spin and is a lefty. He just puts the ball back into play. Any opponent that goes for the one-shot; one kill tactic loses with too many UE. The better opponents have the same consistency as he does, but does have weapons grade FH to use when they create an opening. Mostly, they will slowly ratchet up their shots with a little more pace, a little more angle, or throw off balance with slightly lower pace; then slightly higher pace. Just a slight change in the ball to have their opponents provide an opening.

I'm assuming at the top junior level, its the same thing that goes on. But I can't detect the slight variations in the shots. It looks like a bunch of pounding back and forth. But it really isn't. They are sparring with lots of jabs to find an opening for the cross. The haymaker doesn't come out unless there is a wide opening.
 
#20
There's a guy on my mixed team, a neighbor of mine that I've been playing tennis with for 2.5 years now. He's 60 or 61 years old, but is a former professional soccer player - so incredibly athletic and quick-footed, though sprinting nowadays is not so easy for him. He has been playing tennis for 20 years or more and if the conversation gets to tennis, he will brag to anyone who will listen about two things:

1) Has never taken a single tennis lesson.
2) Has lost at mixed dubs only once or twice in the past 50+ matches - which is like 4 or 5 years worth of dubs seasons (though he only plays mixed at low 3.5 level and almost never at line 1 unless there is NO other choice, as he doesn't trust female partners at the level of mixed plays to help enough against line 1 competition - kind of a copout, but there it is).

He has a waiter's tray serve that is about as fast as is possible with the physiological limits of the motion - can place it well, and only very rarely double faults. This motion has taken its toll on his arm though as he was out half of this mixed season with frozen shoulder and elbow issues).

He plays on a roughly equivalent to 4.0 men's dubs team (ALTA B-2) at line 1 or 2. In his younger years he played on 4.5+ level teams (ALTA A and AA level) with his son who is currently a 4.5+ player.

He has almost no topspin on his forehand, which looks like a flat eastern grip sort of thing - not exactly ugly, but certainly not "pretty" - with anywhere from "just enough" to "pretty heavy" pace. Fundamentally his footwork is decent, but not orthodox... and his forehand goes EXACTLY where he wants it to, almost every time. He can chip slice the forehand as well with decent accuracy and often uses that for a drop shot or ROS.

His backhand is slice only, and it too goes EXACTLY where he wans it to almost every time - it looks like a hacker's slice, but I guarantee you that he can hit it low, driving, and skipping, or floating and checking up, which ever he wants, and put it wherever he wants to. He can drop shot like nobody's business. Absolutely no topspin backhand whatsoever. If you catch him stretching for a backhand he'll just hit a flat one back deep on you.

His return of serve is just a simple directed block for anything with decent pace, and if you hit him a soft second serve he WILL drop slice it and unless you are ready for it and have a pretty fast horse to get on, you aren't going to get it back.

His net game is solid, with the exception of the overhead which he really doesn't hit well - especially now with his shoulder problems.

I estimate his USTA rank at 4.0 at this point, but he's 60 or 61 with bad knees and a shabby elbow and shoulder. Two years ago he was a rock solid 4.0. The thing about him is that along with his non-pretty strokes and his sublime placement, he has truly cat-like reflexes even for his age - and he has "another gear" to find if he gets into serious competition. He plays down for mixed because he likes to humiliate the men by hitting to the women until they either blow the point or hit him one at the net that he can jam down the man's throat. In men's dubs he plays at his level and last season, won 7 out of 8 matches at line 1 or 2 on his ALTA B-2 men's dubs team. He lost in the second round of playoffs.

I have personally watched him utterly confound and destroy 4.0 dubs players who had strokes that looked like they were DEFINITELY formerly coached college level players (D2 or D3) - guys with sweet heavy topspin FH/BH strokes, hard nasty serves, super fast feet, etc.

When you watch him play you think "This guy's just a hack, look at those garbage strokes..." and then you're scratching your head as he's serving for the set and pulls out the hardest flat waiter's tray serve he has and paints the sideline 3 feet short of the service line for an ace.

In general he plays low risk, smart tennis - aiming for big targets, and only finessing when that's the smart play, rather than forcing it. He can lob but rarely uses topspin lobs unless he's goofing around and trying to make you run, but it's more about placement when he does it to reset the point or just to beat you because you got too close to the net.

I guess you'll just have to take my word for it because I have no match video to show you of him. This guy is no longer much for singles (bad knees and his age) but if you aren't a solid 4.0+ dubs team you don't stand much of a chance against him and his usual partner (who isn't as good as he is, not even very close).
 
#21
There's a guy on my mixed team, a neighbor of mine that I've been playing tennis with for 2.5 years now. He's 60 or 61 years old, but is a former professional soccer player - so incredibly athletic and quick-footed, though sprinting nowadays is not so easy for him. He has been playing tennis for 20 years or more and if the conversation gets to tennis, he will brag to anyone who will listen about two things:

1) Has never taken a single tennis lesson.
2) Has lost at mixed dubs only once or twice in the past 50+ matches - which is like 4 or 5 years worth of dubs seasons (though he only plays mixed at low 3.5 level and almost never at line 1 unless there is NO other choice, as he doesn't trust female partners at the level of mixed plays to help enough against line 1 competition - kind of a copout, but there it is).

He has a waiter's tray serve that is about as fast as is possible with the physiological limits of the motion - can place it well, and only very rarely double faults. This motion has taken its toll on his arm though as he was out half of this mixed season with frozen shoulder and elbow issues).

He plays on a roughly equivalent to 4.0 men's dubs team (ALTA B-2) at line 1 or 2. In his younger years he played on 4.5+ level teams (ALTA A and AA level) with his son who is currently a 4.5+ player.

He has almost no topspin on his forehand, which looks like a flat eastern grip sort of thing - not exactly ugly, but certainly not "pretty" - with anywhere from "just enough" to "pretty heavy" pace. Fundamentally his footwork is decent, but not orthodox... and his forehand goes EXACTLY where he wants it to, almost every time. He can chip slice the forehand as well with decent accuracy and often uses that for a drop shot or ROS.

His backhand is slice only, and it too goes EXACTLY where he wans it to almost every time - it looks like a hacker's slice, but I guarantee you that he can hit it low, driving, and skipping, or floating and checking up, which ever he wants, and put it wherever he wants to. He can drop shot like nobody's business. Absolutely no topspin backhand whatsoever. If you catch him stretching for a backhand he'll just hit a flat one back deep on you.

His return of serve is just a simple directed block for anything with decent pace, and if you hit him a soft second serve he WILL drop slice it and unless you are ready for it and have a pretty fast horse to get on, you aren't going to get it back.

His net game is solid, with the exception of the overhead which he really doesn't hit well - especially now with his shoulder problems.

I estimate his USTA rank at 4.0 at this point, but he's 60 or 61 with bad knees and a shabby elbow and shoulder. Two years ago he was a rock solid 4.0. The thing about him is that along with his non-pretty strokes and his sublime placement, he has truly cat-like reflexes even for his age - and he has "another gear" to find if he gets into serious competition. He plays down for mixed because he likes to humiliate the men by hitting to the women until they either blow the point or hit him one at the net that he can jam down the man's throat. In men's dubs he plays at his level and last season, won 7 out of 8 matches at line 1 or 2 on his ALTA B-2 men's dubs team. He lost in the second round of playoffs.

I have personally watched him utterly confound and destroy 4.0 dubs players who had strokes that looked like they were DEFINITELY formerly coached college level players (D2 or D3) - guys with sweet heavy topspin FH/BH strokes, hard nasty serves, super fast feet, etc.

When you watch him play you think "This guy's just a hack, look at those garbage strokes..." and then you're scratching your head as he's serving for the set and pulls out the hardest flat waiter's tray serve he has and paints the sideline 3 feet short of the service line for an ace.

In general he plays low risk, smart tennis - aiming for big targets, and only finessing when that's the smart play, rather than forcing it. He can lob but rarely uses topspin lobs unless he's goofing around and trying to make you run, but it's more about placement when he does it to reset the point or just to beat you because you got too close to the net.

I guess you'll just have to take my word for it because I have no match video to show you of him. This guy is no longer much for singles (bad knees and his age) but if you aren't a solid 4.0+ dubs team you don't stand much of a chance against him and his usual partner (who isn't as good as he is, not even very close).
I as well know some players that never took lessons, only learning from YouTube + what they see at better opponents.
And yes, I must say that when it comes to a former pro in a different sport, or simply someone with good fitness level, who is as well strong mentally and goes for big targets + safe % tennis, ugly strokes can easily defeat nice academic strokes of guys who take regular lessons form a coach.

Tennis is a mix of:
strokes (pace + consistency + precision)
fitness
mental strength
choice of shots
 
#22
I as well know some players that never took lessons, only learning from YouTube + what they see at better opponents.
And yes, I must say that when it comes to a former pro in a different sport, or simply someone with good fitness level, who is as well strong mentally and goes for big targets + safe % tennis, ugly strokes can easily defeat nice academic strokes of guys who take regular lessons form a coach.

Tennis is a mix of:
strokes (pace + consistency + precision)
fitness
mental strength
choice of shots
This guy doesn't even watch youtube videos haha! He gets on the computer to play chess (apparently he's very good at that) and little else. If his wife didn't log into his tennispoint account and set his availability for him, I'd have to chase him every dang week.

This past men's season he beat a recently retired pro baseball player who had only just taken up tennis in the past few years. He said it was a TOUGH match.

I myself had to play against a former pro baseball player a couple years ago and that guy had only just started playing about a year less experience than me, but he was a good 15 years younger than me and could run down balls that he had no business whatosever of even getting into the same area code with... fortunately he was only able to put back decent shots on about a third of them... but I reckon the people that encounter him 2 years later (if he's stuck with tennis) have a sadder story to tell...
 
#23
He has a waiter's tray serve that is about as fast as is possible with the physiological limits of the motion - can place it well, and only very rarely double faults. This motion has taken its toll on his arm though as he was out half of this mixed season with frozen shoulder and elbow issues).
).
That was a classic description of a great player who makes others self-destruct.
For those with too many "pretty strokes" YouTube videos and not enough match experience.
Those guys are at the TOP of my hitting list. 40 years of experience.
It would take 10 years of Full Time work to beat a guy like that.


How does his serve compare to Auresh's serve?
I LOVE this guy's serve. It's brutal.
In this video, he is serving up a lot of 2nds.
But look at 2:03 and 2:28
****ing bloody awesome frying pan serve

This guy mentally imploded Curious
And that's totally understandable.
Knowing the feeling of losing to ugly strokes is the path to enlightenment.
Pretty strokes have ZERO correlation to match outcome.

 
#24
How does his serve compare to Auresh's serve?
I LOVE this guy's serve. It's brutal.
In this video, he is serving up a lot of 2nds.
But look at 2:03 and 2:28
****ing bloody awesome frying pan serve
My friend's serve is quite similar - with a much lower toss. It looks like Auresh's fastest serves (at 2:03, 2:28, and 2:31) are almost as fast as my friend's hardest serves. I swear my friend has aced me (and a dozen others I've seen him play) with the same serve Auresh aced the other guy with at 2:31. However, taking into account my inability to accurately gauge video ball speed vs. real life ball speed, I'm guessing these men's serves are quite comparable. My friend's second serve is almost always deeper than the second serves that Auresh was hitting with the exception of when my friend is having a rare bad serve day or has a sore arm, then he's almost dinking it in - but still low and at the extreme edges of the service box.
 
#25
What I love about Auresh is his ridiculous toss.
Watch his body as he waits for the ball.
You look at all that and think, 2.5 server. Joke.

Then you get jammed with a body serve. And an ace.
He has maximized the pace he can get by using 100% arm and frying pan grip.
That is the work of 10,000 hours of perfecting the wrong stroke.

Auresh serve perfectly symbolizes the entire rec tennis vortex of lifetime 3.5
Never learn the right way (lessons), and just perfect the broken stroke to mastery.
 
#26
What I love about Auresh is his ridiculous toss.
Watch his body as he waits for the ball.
You look at all that and think, 2.5 server. Joke.

Then you get jammed with a body serve. And an ace.
He has maximized the pace he can get by using 100% arm and frying pan grip.
That is the work of 10,000 hours of perfecting the wrong stroke.

Auresh serve perfectly symbolizes the entire rec tennis vortex of lifetime 3.5
Never learn the right way (lessons), and just perfect the broken stroke to mastery.
I still think that the exceptions prove the rule.

Pretty strokes have a higher ceiling than hacker strokes because those pretty strokes developed as the means to optimize the equipment and the modern game... but that only matters if that ceiling is within your reach. Hackers with lots of match play experience can live long at lower/intermediate levels of tennis because nobody there is really optimizing the potential of the modern game.

You and I are probably not the best examples to discuss this about though - we started tennis in our mid to late 40s - neither of us are likely to ever see 4.5. If we'd started with this drive and the resources we have now at age 25 instead of 45, then 4.5 or even 5.0 would have been possible - maybe more... However at our ages, there simply isn't enough time to find out what the ceiling is on scrubby strokes because our bodies will betray us long before we can break out of the level of play where hackers can survive. Our choice is simple - play the best game we can with pretty strokes or hacker strokes - one isn't necessarily superior to the other until you get up to 4.5 perhaps - but again - that's like you and me arguing about which shoes are best for walking on the moon - not really a factor in our forseeable futures, right?
 
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#28
The ceiling is largely hypothetical.
Very few adults can do the work to reach 4.0+ using "real" strokes.
Besides, I am only talking about a moment in time.
During warm up, you have NO IDEA who will win.
 
#29
Starting at 25 is really no different than starting at 45.
The difference is starting as a kid.

Kids play 5x a week, rec adults do not.

That is why adults can NEVER bridge the gap
and the one with pretty strokes got coached as a kid.
 
#30
That was a classic description of a great player who makes others self-destruct.
For those with too many "pretty strokes" YouTube videos and not enough match experience.
Those guys are at the TOP of my hitting list. 40 years of experience.
It would take 10 years of Full Time work to beat a guy like that.


How does his serve compare to Auresh's serve?
I LOVE this guy's serve. It's brutal.
In this video, he is serving up a lot of 2nds.
But look at 2:03 and 2:28
****ing bloody awesome frying pan serve

This guy mentally imploded Curious
And that's totally understandable.
Knowing the feeling of losing to ugly strokes is the path to enlightenment.
Pretty strokes have ZERO correlation to match outcome.

Looks like a decent rec serve but doesn't look particularly fast to me, frame count says 90mph, it seems to me that this surface is the biggest reason it appears fast, it seems to be quite a fast surface and the ball also seems to bounce low and skid.

On a slower hard court or better yet on clay im almost certain Curious would have much less problems with the serve.
 
#31
Smart. How do you know the FPS of the posted video?
90mph is probably considered a very fast rec serve, no?
Impressive considering he's using 2.5 granny mechanics
 
#32
The ceiling is largely hypothetical.
Very few adults can do the work to reach 4.0+ using "real" strokes.
Besides, I am only talking about a moment in time.
During warm up, you have NO IDEA who will win.
Well sure, warmup has nothing to do with game play, that I agree with...

Starting at 25 is really no different than starting at 45.
The difference is starting as a kid.

Kids play 5x a week, rec adults do not.

That is why adults can NEVER bridge the gap
and the one with pretty strokes got coached as a kid.
I think you've overstated this a bit.

How many days a week do you play?

I play 5 or more days a week - not for 8 hours, but for 2 at least - and that's at almost 50 years of age. Certainly I have more disposable income than I did when I was 25, but if I had stayed out of the bars at age 25 and put that money towards tennis instruction, I'd have had enough for at least one pro lesson a week, 2 hours on the court at least 5 times a week and still a Friday or Saturday night out with friends. I didn't get married until I was 45, so no kids for me either.

At 25 years old, I was 3 years out of playing college varsity baseball - I didn't have a bad knee or a bad ankle, the only thing I had was a shoulder that wouldn't let me pitch a baseball anymore - that shoulder hasn't bothered me one bit with tennis.

My back wasn't sore, I wasn't overweight, I was much faster on my feet, my reflexes were better, I was stronger, and that would have been almost 25 years ago that I started playing - I would have achieved 4.0 pretty readily I think, and 4.5 with only reasonable dedication. Right now I am looking at my game after just over 2.5 years playing and starting at age 47... I can only imagine what I could have accomplished with 10 times that effort and starting when my body was probably also at least 10 times more capable than it is today.

It's not that aduts can NEVER bridge the gap - the ranks of the professionals may be beyond our reach (and they're beyond the reach of 99% of kids that get lots of instruction too), but the higher ranks of rec tennis are not - they are simply beyond the limits of dedication for many adults - but not all. Obviously a certain level of athletic inclination is required - some folks don't have that, but I think I did have enough athletic aptitude to get to 4.5+ tennis.
 
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#33
A 45 year old who plays 5x a week
will blow away a 25 year old who plays 2x a week.

And lessons are everything to developing proper strokes.
(Most people don't even know their strokes are wrong)

The point is that at 45, you can still develop your game
under the right circumstances.
I generally agree that 4.5 is not realistic.
But, the higher I get, the less impressed I am at stroke quality.
I now see why 4.5 and 5.0 players think 4.0 are hacks.
Most 3.5 players have better strokes than 4.0, except the 4.0 has decades of match smarts.

But, I don't think it's possible once you cross 50.
This game is brutally unhealthy
My body is feeling the strain of the last 2 years of training.
I will not be able to sustain daily play much longer.
Injuries are knocking at the door.

But, to get to a high level,
you need to play 6x a week, and sometimes 2x a day.
There is simply no way around it.
But, it IS possible in your 40s.

In just 2 years, closing in on age 50,
I have surpassed most people who play for a lifetime
(stuck in 3.0 and 3.5 hell)
 
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#34
If I add up all the time I spent in my 20s playing pickup basketball, going to the gym, climbing at the local crag, going to the bar, golfing, going to Orioles games, work league softball, otherwise chasing tail, it was easily 2 to 3 hours a day, 7 days a week, probably closer to 4 hours per day. The was a municipal court 2 miles away from me that was free to play on right next to the basketball court. If I had gotten the bug, I could have played a LOT of tennis starting in my 20s...
 
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#36
That was a classic description of a great player who makes others self-destruct.
For those with too many "pretty strokes" YouTube videos and not enough match experience.
Those guys are at the TOP of my hitting list. 40 years of experience.
It would take 10 years of Full Time work to beat a guy like that.
Certainly agree that he doesn't have enough match experience (ball placement, approach shots down the middle). But he doesn't have great strokes either. I saw a few good FHs, but mainly because the ball happened to come into his strike zone. He simply doesn't have the anticipation and footwork to be able to hit a great stroke.
 
#40
Does anyone have footage that would serve as a good example of this ?
One guy with perfect strokes, great serving, etc, looks like a great player
and getting crushed by a player who has grotesque strokes, dink serving, but hits everything in play.
This needs to be taught and focused on a lot more in player development
TimeToPlaySets

As has been said for many moons, "sh*te happens", get over it and move up and on. Street tennis as I heard some call it, isn't about pretty, it is about Winning for some.

Your avatar reminds me of someone who is suffering from hemorrhoids. Get them fixed and move your butt faster on the court. Loosing to someone with ugly technique would be a pain in the butt to me also.

Aloha
 
#46
A 45 year old who plays 5x a week
will blow away a 25 year old who plays 2x a week.

And lessons are everything to developing proper strokes.
(Most people don't even know their strokes are wrong)

The point is that at 45, you can still develop your game
under the right circumstances.
I generally agree that 4.5 is not realistic.
But, the higher I get, the less impressed I am at stroke quality.
I now see why 4.5 and 5.0 players think 4.0 are hacks.
Most 3.5 players have better strokes than 4.0, except the 4.0 has decades of match smarts.

But, I don't think it's possible once you cross 50.
This game is brutally unhealthy
My body is feeling the strain of the last 2 years of training.
I will not be able to sustain daily play much longer.
Injuries are knocking at the door.

But, to get to a high level,
you need to play 6x a week, and sometimes 2x a day.
There is simply no way around it.
But, it IS possible in your 40s.

In just 2 years, closing in on age 50,
I have surpassed most people who play for a lifetime
(stuck in 3.0 and 3.5 hell)
It doesn't stop at 50. I am 53 1/2. In the summer I play every single day. On occasion I may even play twice a day. I have done that 3-4 times this summer, one of them was two matches totalling 4.5 hrs on one day, all singles. Yesterday, 2 singles matches, totaling 3 hrs. This was outdoors at 88 degrees Fahrenheit and high humidity, I finished 32 ounces of fluids in each match. Weekdays I play about 1.5-2 hrs, weekend days, it's 2+ hrs. A buddy of mine, 56, plays all freakin day. He is a member at a club, goes there early in the morning, plays though midday and then plays with me for another 2 hrs. It's doable. Just excercise smart, listen to your body.
 
#48
Does anyone have footage that would serve as a good example of this ?
One guy with perfect strokes, great serving, etc, looks like a great player
and getting crushed by a player who has grotesque strokes, dink serving, but hits everything in play.
This needs to be taught and focused on a lot more in player development
Yeah, that Novak Djokovic guy is getting on my nerves too! What a hack he is! Even Boris and Andre gave up on coaching him! Hopeless:cautious: Thanks for pointing out to everyone about this clown!
 

vex

Hall of Fame
#49
Does anyone have footage that would serve as a good example of this ?
One guy with perfect strokes, great serving, etc, looks like a great player
and getting crushed by a player who has grotesque strokes, dink serving, but hits everything in play.
This needs to be taught and focused on a lot more in player development
Perfect strokes don’t lose to pushers. Perfect strokes know how to hit balls from anywhere in the court, pressure the pusher and put easy balls away.

You seem to think “perfect strokes” begin and end with hitting heavy pace from the baseline. Get off the baseline fix the rest of your game
 

MathGeek

Hall of Fame
#50
Does anyone have footage that would serve as a good example of this ?
One guy with perfect strokes, great serving, etc, looks like a great player
and getting crushed by a player who has grotesque strokes, dink serving, but hits everything in play.
This needs to be taught and focused on a lot more in player development
I agree with the need. Almost every match I win is an example of the guy with grotesque strokes beating a player with better strokes. But I've never "crushed" anyone with good strokes. I'm a pusher and a junkballer. When I beat players with good strokes, it's invariably a close match. But there's a lot more to "Winning Ugly" than just keeping it in play. There's a mental and emotional consistency. There are subtle adjustments to hit more to the opponent's weaknesses while avoiding stuff that isn't working for me that day. And usually there is an intentional decision to lengthen points and move the opponent to leverage my fitness advantage and tire them out. Once players with great strokes are sufficiently tired, they get lazy with their footwork and their strokes suffer.

I've made some videos, but erased them and resolved that they'll never be on the internet. JUST TOO UGLY. Happy with the W. No need to show others how the sausage is made.
 
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