The Negative Price of Improvement

michael_1265

michael_1265

Professional
As I’ve mentioned before, I hit regularly with a former Div I player. Me being a 3.5 hack, the results are predictable. I take a game here, a game there, and I’m happy. Things have changed recently, though. I have been internalizing a lot of his tips, and, as a result, I am hitting the ball cleaner, deeper, and quite a bit harder (he is observing this). My second serve has progressed to the point where it has a nice kick. The result? I don’t get any games at all. The fact that I used to hit a lot of off-speed junk and lobs got me some points and games because it forced him to adjust. Now, my groundies feed right into his wheelhouse. In a way, winning one or two games in a set was an illusion which was neither improving my tennis nor giving me a chance to win the set. We played two sets last night, and I got to ad on my serve twice, but couldn’t convert. Many of the points I did win last night were hard fought: Solid service winners, putaways after four or five shot rallies, second serve returns.
Even if I progress substantially, there is no likelihood of me being competitive with this player. I am okay with that, and I guess the best thing I can do is focus on controlling what I can and improving my shot choice and quality. I am hoping that this winter work translates into an actual win in 3.5 singles this year. If I can handle their freakin' junk balling, that is.
 
Use your time with your buddy to develop your serve even more. It's a perfect opportunity that you shouldn't pass up, because he's got the ability to punish any weak serves. Also, that ability can highlight when you've hit a good serve (anything that forces a weak return from him is definitely a good serve). A great way to work on it is to try to S&V against him. That will definitely force you to focus on hitting a good serve every time; otherwise, he'll blast them past you left and right.

Once you can get to the point where your serves are causing him problems on a regular basis, you'll have a serve the junk ballers can't handle. Then, it's a case of serving well, approaching off of the weak return, and daring the junk ballers to hit passing shots (if they manage to even reach your approach shots).
 
michael_1265 said:
I hit regularly with a former Div I player.
Click to expand...

I've also been lucky to have the opportunity to "play up" regularly, and that experience has contributed in big part to me developing into a better player.

When I play someone who is clearly better than me, I know I'm not "supposed" to win, and if I DID it would only be due to them having a very bad day. So, I try to focus on consistency. It's okay for them to win, but I don't want to help by giving away unforced errors and double faults.

Actually, my thinking went through a major change after reading a book a few years ago. Among other things, it suggested you get your pleasure from hitting the ball well, rather than wins and losses. If you can do that, the wins will follow. More important for me, I can lose set after set and still be in a good mood ... most of the time :)
 
It might not be all bad news. Perhaps he was not previously using his A or even his B game, but as he sees improvement in your strokes he has upped his game in response?
 
beernutz said:
It might not be all bad news. Perhaps he was not previously using his A or even his B game, but as he sees improvement in your strokes he has upped his game in response?
Click to expand...

That could be true, although it seems to be against his nature. I actually took him to 6-4 last year, but he was rusty, and we were playing outside on slow clay. That surface allowed me the extra half-step I needed, and I was able to goad him into a few errors. It was fun while it lasted.........
 
Harl Goodman said:
I've also been lucky to have the opportunity to "play up" regularly, and that experience has contributed in big part to me developing into a better player.

When I play someone who is clearly better than me, I know I'm not "supposed" to win, and if I DID it would only be due to them having a very bad day. So, I try to focus on consistency. It's okay for them to win, but I don't want to help by giving away unforced errors and double faults.

Actually, my thinking went through a major change after reading a book a few years ago. Among other things, it suggested you get your pleasure from hitting the ball well, rather than wins and losses. If you can do that, the wins will follow. More important for me, I can lose set after set and still be in a good mood ... most of the time :)
Click to expand...

That's a great philosophy. I am working hard on hitting the ball well, every time. Of course, reality is that I hit about five shots a match exactly as I intended.
 
spaceman_spiff said:
Use your time with your buddy to develop your serve even more. It's a perfect opportunity that you shouldn't pass up, because he's got the ability to punish any weak serves. Also, that ability can highlight when you've hit a good serve (anything that forces a weak return from him is definitely a good serve). A great way to work on it is to try to S&V against him. That will definitely force you to focus on hitting a good serve every time; otherwise, he'll blast them past you left and right.

Once you can get to the point where your serves are causing him problems on a regular basis, you'll have a serve the junk ballers can't handle. Then, it's a case of serving well, approaching off of the weak return, and daring the junk ballers to hit passing shots (if they manage to even reach your approach shots).
Click to expand...

That is a challenge, for sure. Last night, I cranked a big serve at him, trying to jam him. It might have been six inches to the forehand side. I recovered from my serve just in time for the ball to bounce off the instep of my right foot. Other times, though, I have been successful. My heater down the Ad T targets his 1HBH and usually elicits a neutral return. I just have to hit that spot more consistently.
 
interesting thread michael. Have you considered changing up the pace and spin on the ball every now and then? Just because you are able to hit prettier, deeper balls more often doesn't mean you can't throw in some junk (so long as you remain well balanced and hit the junk with intention).
 
Yah, when you improve your stroke technique you hit a cleaner ball in the center of the racket. It becomes more predictable for your opponents to return. The toughest shots to hit are usually shanks by beginners. Their arm-speed is telling you one thing and the shanked ball goes someplace else. You can't get a warm-up because they are spraying the ball everywhere but back to you. When you start keeping track of the points their shanks are now dropping for winners or difficult to time no pace shots with weird spins. The upside is, like someone else mentioned, you derive more pleasure from hitting the ball well.
 
michael_1265 said:
I am working hard on hitting the ball well, every time.
Click to expand...

The difference maker for me is NOT looking up to where I'm hitting the ball.
Line up the shot ... watch the ball come in ... hit it ... keep looking at the contact point ... wait ... keep looking at the contact point ... wait ... then, wait ...
 
OP,

Does your better opponent give you some sort of advantages to level the fields?

Against my substantially worse friends, I give them the doubles alleys on my side.

If your opponent relies on consistency and stamina, you could also ask him to restrict the number of shots he can hit or he'll automatically lose if he goes above it.
 
I actually hate when people do that to me. I want to play straight up and if you beat me badly then you beat me. If YOU want to work on something different to give me a better chance then don't tell me about it until after.
 
michael_1265 said:
That could be true, although it seems to be against his nature. I actually took him to 6-4 last year, but he was rusty, and we were playing outside on slow clay. That surface allowed me the extra half-step I needed, and I was able to goad him into a few errors. It was fun while it lasted.........
Click to expand...

This doesn't make any sense to me. He is a former D1 player and you played him to 6-4, but you said in another post that you are hoping your improvement translates into an actual win at 3.5 this year.

There is a huge discrepancy in the tennis ability of a D1 player and a 3.5. Either this guy isn't worth his weight as a former D1 player or you are better than 3.5. I didn't play D1 tennis in college but have wins over many current and former D1 players, and I've never given a game up to a 3.5 in singles, rusty or otherwise.

I'd just take what you consider the improvement to be and build on it. Tennis is such a game of confidence that even just feeling like you are hitting the ball better will result in good things. I applaud your effort to improve even if scores are getting more lopsided. Sometimes that is just a transition period. Keep working hard and reap the benefits
 
michael_1265 said:
As I’ve mentioned before, I hit regularly with a former Div I player. Me being a 3.5 hack, the results are predictable. I take a game here, a game there, and I’m happy. Things have changed recently, though. I have been internalizing a lot of his tips, and, as a result, I am hitting the ball cleaner, deeper, and quite a bit harder (he is observing this). My second serve has progressed to the point where it has a nice kick. The result? I don’t get any games at all. The fact that I used to hit a lot of off-speed junk and lobs got me some points and games because it forced him to adjust. Now, my groundies feed right into his wheelhouse. In a way, winning one or two games in a set was an illusion which was neither improving my tennis nor giving me a chance to win the set. We played two sets last night, and I got to ad on my serve twice, but couldn’t convert. Many of the points I did win last night were hard fought: Solid service winners, putaways after four or five shot rallies, second serve returns.
Even if I progress substantially, there is no likelihood of me being competitive with this player. I am okay with that, and I guess the best thing I can do is focus on controlling what I can and improving my shot choice and quality. I am hoping that this winter work translates into an actual win in 3.5 singles this year. If I can handle their freakin' junk balling, that is.
Click to expand...

A few observations:

1. When a 3.5 plays against a D1 caliber player, the score is going to be completely based on how into it the D1 player is. How well the 3.5 player is playing is barely relevant. So the score is indicative of nothing; I would give much more weight to the subjective opinion of the D1 player as far as whether your game has improved.

2. The most objective way to measure progress is to play against other 3.5 and then some 4.0 players. It's great that you get to hit with a high-level player, but why not set up a few practice matches with 3.5 / 4.0 players also?

3. Hitting serves/groundies cleaner, deeper, harder is great, all else being equal. But, make sure it's not at the expense of being able to recover and be ready / in position for the next shot. If hitting harder means you are off-balance for the next shot, then you might actually be worse off as a net result. Again, you're not going to find this out against a D1 player; you need to be playing against others closer to your own level also.
 
maggmaster said:
I actually hate when people do that to me. I want to play straight up and if you beat me badly then you beat me. If YOU want to work on something different to give me a better chance then don't tell me about it until after.
Click to expand...

Your hatred (or pride) is misplaced, and you may be missing good opportunities here. Games are very boring if the levels are drastically different and players tend to quit. My suggestions would likely encourage better players to stick around by giving him some challenges or something for him to work on, and thus you also benefit. On other hand, there's nothing you miss if the better player gives you some advantages.
 
Of course, Div 1 guy has a 95% say in the score.
Tennis is not about playing only ONE guy.
You might be getting better vs other guys of your level.
How can any 5.5 take a 3.5 match seriously? Goofing around, he'd win mostly bagels, but sometimes breadsticks if he's lazy.
 
LeeD said:
Of course, Div 1 guy has a 95% say in the score.
Tennis is not about playing only ONE guy.
You might be getting better vs other guys of your level.
How can any 5.5 take a 3.5 match seriously? Goofing around, he'd win mostly bagels, but sometimes breadsticks if he's lazy.
Click to expand...

A former D1 player is usually not 5.5, more likely 4.5. Still a big difference, but a few games are not out of the question.
 
Don't be so hard on yourself. Instead, count yourself lucky to have such a hitting partner. He must be getting something out of it...if he continues to play/hit with you. I'm sure he sees in you what I have, that you have potential. With your physical size, mental acuity and pure passion for the game, there's plenty of room for growth and your buddy will probably take some pride in "bringing you along," even if it comes at a cost of a few hat-in-hand days for you. Beernutz is probably right; you have upped the ante and your friend has had to step it up too. The bar had been set, you rose (or were rising too close for comfort) to it, so it's been raised again. All of that means, you have gotten better.

As an occasional (and hopefully more frequent) hitting partner of yours, I can attest to your "improvement." So don't look at the apparent worsening of scores as being a "negative" price.

But like you, I did much of the same last off-season. NTRP be darned, I knew I was going to be playing "up" a level and worked very, very hard to add new elements to my game: more pace, more depth, more spin, more aggression. Like you, I sought higher leveled mentors who, blessedly, took me under their wing. Improvements made. But playing 4.0s in a real match...a whole other story. All that pace and depth, just put the ball in their wheelhouse. And it came back faster and harder than I'd sent it. Sadly, what did work, was bringing back some of the junk. At least now, I can say (to myself) I planned that (semi) drop-shot instead of claiming a mishit or pure-luck. The positive price of all that work: a 5-0 record in singles against my fellow 3.5s. And I hadn't played a USTA singles match in Years. At my age and this stage of my playing life, I'll take those results any day.
 
michael_1265 said:
As I’ve mentioned before, I hit regularly with a former Div I player. Me being a 3.5 hack, the results are predictable. I take a game here, a game there, and I’m happy. Things have changed recently, though. I have been internalizing a lot of his tips, and, as a result, I am hitting the ball cleaner, deeper, and quite a bit harder (he is observing this). My second serve has progressed to the point where it has a nice kick. The result? I don’t get any games at all. The fact that I used to hit a lot of off-speed junk and lobs got me some points and games because it forced him to adjust. Now, my groundies feed right into his wheelhouse. In a way, winning one or two games in a set was an illusion which was neither improving my tennis nor giving me a chance to win the set. We played two sets last night, and I got to ad on my serve twice, but couldn’t convert. Many of the points I did win last night were hard fought: Solid service winners, putaways after four or five shot rallies, second serve returns.
Even if I progress substantially, there is no likelihood of me being competitive with this player. I am okay with that, and I guess the best thing I can do is focus on controlling what I can and improving my shot choice and quality. I am hoping that this winter work translates into an actual win in 3.5 singles this year. If I can handle their freakin' junk balling, that is.
Click to expand...

Count your blessings and be thankful that you have such a high level opponent to practice with which will help raise your game closer to his level.
 
Harl Goodman said:
I've also been lucky to have the opportunity to "play up" regularly, and that experience has contributed in big part to me developing into a better player.

When I play someone who is clearly better than me, I know I'm not "supposed" to win, and if I DID it would only be due to them having a very bad day. So, I try to focus on consistency. It's okay for them to win, but I don't want to help by giving away unforced errors and double faults.

Actually, my thinking went through a major change after reading a book a few years ago. Among other things, it suggested you get your pleasure from hitting the ball well, rather than wins and losses. If you can do that, the wins will follow. More important for me, I can lose set after set and still be in a good mood ... most of the time :)
Click to expand...

I second this post...very good viewpoint - especially the part about being happy just hitting well regardless of win or loss.
 
user92626 said:
OP,

Does your better opponent give you some sort of advantages to level the fields?

Against my substantially worse friends, I give them the doubles alleys on my side.

If your opponent relies on consistency and stamina, you could also ask him to restrict the number of shots he can hit or he'll automatically lose if he goes above it.
Click to expand...

I'd rather he play as well as he can. I couldn't get motivated playing a handicap.
 
DANMAN said:
This doesn't make any sense to me. He is a former D1 player and you played him to 6-4, but you said in another post that you are hoping your improvement translates into an actual win at 3.5 this year.

There is a huge discrepancy in the tennis ability of a D1 player and a 3.5. Either this guy isn't worth his weight as a former D1 player or you are better than 3.5. I didn't play D1 tennis in college but have wins over many current and former D1 players, and I've never given a game up to a 3.5 in singles, rusty or otherwise.

I'd just take what you consider the improvement to be and build on it. Tennis is such a game of confidence that even just feeling like you are hitting the ball better will result in good things. I applaud your effort to improve even if scores are getting more lopsided. Sometimes that is just a transition period. Keep working hard and reap the benefits
Click to expand...

There are a lot of modifiers to the 6-4 match. He had hardly picked up a racquet in the previous 20 years, and he hits flat and hard. He was out of calibration. I'm also pretty sure he had never spent a lot of time on Har-Tru.

I didn't know him when he played in college, but he had a good record playing for a prominent program in the SEC. And if you watched us play today, you would see that the talent gap is immense.

As for me and my 3.5 record, I'm somewhat of a headcase. When the pressure is off (playing for fun), I can hold my own against good 4.0s. At match time, the quality drops off. I am working on that. I also struggle with the shift from someone who hits with pace to a pusher.
 
Limpinhitter said:
Count your blessings and be thankful that you have such a high level opponent to practice with which will help raise your game closer to his level.
Click to expand...

Oh, I do. The funny thing is that some of my 3.5 friends will see me getting flogged, and ask me afterward, "Why do you put yourself through that?" It's pure gold, man! I get to play someone who played nearly at a pro level, and I get on-court tips for my game. I'm just happy that he hasn't gotten bored.
 
michael_1265 said:
As I’ve mentioned before, I hit regularly with a former Div I player. Me being a 3.5 hack, the results are predictable. I take a game here, a game there, and I’m happy. Things have changed recently, though. I have been internalizing a lot of his tips, and, as a result, I am hitting the ball cleaner, deeper, and quite a bit harder (he is observing this). My second serve has progressed to the point where it has a nice kick. The result? I don’t get any games at all. The fact that I used to hit a lot of off-speed junk and lobs got me some points and games because it forced him to adjust. Now, my groundies feed right into his wheelhouse. In a way, winning one or two games in a set was an illusion which was neither improving my tennis nor giving me a chance to win the set. We played two sets last night, and I got to ad on my serve twice, but couldn’t convert. Many of the points I did win last night were hard fought: Solid service winners, putaways after four or five shot rallies, second serve returns.
Even if I progress substantially, there is no likelihood of me being competitive with this player. I am okay with that, and I guess the best thing I can do is focus on controlling what I can and improving my shot choice and quality. I am hoping that this winter work translates into an actual win in 3.5 singles this year. If I can handle their freakin' junk balling, that is.
Click to expand...
Nice op, OP. And the last line is a gem. :lol:
 
michael_1265 said:
That is a challenge, for sure. Last night, I cranked a big serve at him, trying to jam him. It might have been six inches to the forehand side. I recovered from my serve just in time for the ball to bounce off the instep of my right foot. Other times, though, I have been successful. My heater down the Ad T targets his 1HBH and usually elicits a neutral return. I just have to hit that spot more consistently.
Click to expand...

That's the great thing about practicing with a really good returner. Although it's a humbling experience, it shows you that serving isn't all about pace. So it forces you to focus a lot more on placement (while keeping up the pace).

Once you get to the point where you are placing your serves better and making him stretch, the next step to improvement is to try to S&V. Once you can S&V successfully against a good returner, then you know your serve is getting pretty good.
 
Last edited:
The key to improving is not looking at score line or who you do and do not beat, its looking at your game and working on specific things. I have one lesson who is so focused on winning, and beating people, and ignores the things in his game that are really lagging.
 
tennis_pr0 said:
The key to improving is not looking at score line or who you do and do not beat, its looking at your game and working on specific things. I have one lesson who is so focused on winning, and beating people, and ignores the things in his game that are really lagging.
Click to expand...

Agreed. It's hard to get better at volleying if you won't ever go to the net, because you suck at volleying and know you will most likely lose. Take the loss and work on getting better.
 
michael_1265 said:
It's pure gold, man! I get to play someone who played nearly at a pro level, and I get on-court tips for my game.
Click to expand...

Here's an example of something I tried that was great, over time -

I started forcing myself to hit down the line and inside-out FH approach shots to his BH on any mid-court "opportunity" balls.
I got passed a lot, because the approach shot wasn't the best, but eventually my approach shot improved enough that I would get the chance at some volleys.
Guess what? My volleys were poor. But I stayed with it and the volleys improved.

On the flip side, his groundies off my approach improved, so we actually got to a place after a while where we really were making each other better.
 
Are you sure?
I'm a failing 4.0.
Sometimes, when I play my 5.0 or 5.5 friends, I actually make them run a bit and hit 6 balls from their side, me dictating and ultimately losing the point. I end up losing the sets double bagels, but they sweat almost as much as me (in 58 degree weather), get some kind of workout, but no challenge as far as winning or losing.
If I hit like that against a fellow 4.0, I'd win easily TWO'S. That might be good hitting in a losing cause.
 
user92626 said:
There's no such thing as hitting well in a loss. That's bad hitting.
Click to expand...

Apparently you've never played against someone better than you.

This summer, I played a QF or SF match in a tournament where I lost 6-3, 6-1. I thought I played a solid match: I made very few UE's, hit a number of winners, and served well. Unfortunately, my opponent is in the top 10 in the country for over-35's, so I didn't really stand a chance.

I hit well, but he hit even better.
 
spacediver said:
interesting thread michael. Have you considered changing up the pace and spin on the ball every now and then? Just because you are able to hit prettier, deeper balls more often doesn't mean you can't throw in some junk (so long as you remain well balanced and hit the junk with intention).
Click to expand...

I do agree with this. It sounds lke your focus is on hitting the ball more cleanly, more consistently, which is obviously not a bad thing. But at the same time, getting better does not usually mean losing variety.

I have also been lucky enough to hit with some people significantly better than me, and I understand the feeling of (at times) being rushed and in uncomfortable positions and just feeling unable to hit the ball cleanly, and obviously as you get better (and just more used to the increases speed/spin of the balls coming at you), hopefully that subsides with time.

But, if your 'unclean' offcenter hits actually at times produce better results than giving your opponent the same, clean, consistent ball every time (as it seems like you're saying in your OP), you outght to be able to take something from that. Not that you should try to hit more of those unintentionally weird shots, but that there is value in learning how to intentionally hit with varying spins and paces. If doing that even throws off someone much better than you on occation, think of what it can do for you at your own level.
 
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