The next gen are WORSE against Djokodal now than in 2019

jl809

Hall of Fame
From the start of 2022 to now, we’ve seen the next gen go a combined 1 win, 12 losses vs Djokodal aged 34-36

Rublev is 1-1 (that 1 being when Djokovic was just back from his long break)
Zved is 0-1
Berry is 0-1
Stef is 0-4
Meddy is 0-5
Kyrgios, who is just about too old to be next gen but who I will include anyway, is 0-2.

Now let’s wind the clock back 3 years to a considerably better Djokodal (according to experts on this site) than we have now, and a considerably worse Medvedev, Tsitsipas, Berrettini, Zverev, Kyrgios etc

Let’s look at the results from those lads vs Djokodal in that fabled year:

Zved was 1-1
Tsitsipas was 2-5
Meddy was 2-3
Berry was 0-2
Rublev DNP
Kyrgios was 1-1

This is a combined 6-12 win loss record.

now, sure, some of those wins were explainable or very, very close. And it’s not like Meddy and Stef didn’t get close to wins this year too. Even so, do we honestly have any more confidence rn in the next gen beating a healthy version of those 2 than we would have done 3 years ago??

to put it another way… what it tells us???
 
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AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
This tells us that Medvedev, Zverev and Tsitsipas have become worse since then in terms of peak level. Well, not Zverev who was poor for most of 2019 but he's got the smallest/most non-representative H2H sample of all. Medvedev was outright worse in 2022 than in any of the preceding three seasons, Tsitsipas was more consistent but his ceiling has dropped and that's what you need to prosper in late rounds.
 

Terenigma

G.O.A.T.
We need to stop putting the age thing like it's a big factor. It CLEARLY Isn't and I've pointing this out before but I will again, several other major top tier sports have top players in their mid to late 30s. Talent and ability still takes precedence and if a player shows commitment to their respect sport with exercise and training then there is no reason why they can't still dominate and Djokovic has probably the best team on the planet to help him achieve that.

I'm betting most of you are in your 30s or older. If you are in your 30s and play sport casually then ask yourself if you think you could beat another normal casual everyday player in your respective sport solely because they are 10 years younger than you. How many of you would be like "pfft nah they couldn't, I have better experience and can still play" because I'm betting it's most, if not all of you.
 
You're asking these young players to race against the clock. They need to be in their 30s, with fully developed games and enough experience, before their quality as players can be judged.
 

AO13

Hall of Fame
Deal with it. Novak Djokovic, Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer are 3 greatest tennis players of all time probably forever, and the more they play against the same opponents, the more they read their game and gain more mental advantage against them. Those young guys are not worse, they are better. But they play against tennis Gods, ende.
 

Midaso240

Legend
Deal with it. Novak Djokovic, Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer are 3 greatest tennis players of all time probably forever, and the more they play against the same opponents, the more they read their game and gain more mental advantage against them. Those young guys are not worse, they are better. But they play against tennis Gods, ende.
What if there is a guy like Djokovic in say 20 years but he has no rivals at any point so he wins like 35 slams. Would that guy's case for GOAT be strengthed or weakened? He will have obliterated all the big 3's records, but he won't have had the tough competition that the big 3 had for most of their careers
 
What if there is a guy like Djokovic in say 20 years but he has no rivals at any point so he wins like 35 slams. Would that guy's case for GOAT be strengthed or weakened? He will have obliterated all the big 3's records, but he won't have had the tough competition that the big 3 had for most of their careers
He would be the GOAT in my eyes as he has all the important records. It’s about records not weak or strong eras. You can only beat what’s put in front of you.
 

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
He does. I am prepared for him to lose first round at the AO to some no-namer I have barely heard of. Lol. It really has gotten to that point.
I hope not, that at least he reaches the quarterfinals and shows a good level.
Although it seems unlikely.
:notworthy:
 

Milanez82

Hall of Fame
What if there is a guy like Djokovic in say 20 years but he has no rivals at any point so he wins like 35 slams. Would that guy's case for GOAT be strengthed or weakened? He will have obliterated all the big 3's records, but he won't have had the tough competition that the big 3 had for most of their careers
Except there will be no such guy, you will always need an opponent worthy to push you for more

If Federer was alone he would have retired long time ago bored. Djokovic wouldn't have worked as hard to reach his best which was required to usurp Federer and Nadal. And he would have retired already too.
Rafa would do the same with the comfortable slam record lead and no one worthy to challenge him.

Not sure if you follow chess but there is such a player there now, unquestionable no. 1 for past 12 years, 5 time World Chess Champ and he has decided he won't be defending it due to lack of motivation.
 

Milanez82

Hall of Fame
I hope not, that at least he reaches the quarterfinals and shows a good level.
Although it seems unlikely.
:notworthy:
He was on crutches December 2021 wasn't he so things were much more dire i would say AO22.
If he is feeling healthy, I'm certain it will take an inspired opponent to take him out.
United Cup was an exhibition after all.
 
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DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
He was on crutches December 2021 wasn't he so things were much more dire i would say AO22.
If he is feeling healthy, I'm certain it will take an inspired opponent to take him out.
United Cup was an exhibition after all.
I haven't watched his matches against Norrie and De Minaur but what do you think are the two or three things that Nadal needs to be competitive against the best off clay right now?
:unsure:
 

Milanez82

Hall of Fame
I haven't watched his matches against Norrie and De Minaur but what do you think are the two or three things that Nadal needs to be competitive against the best off clay right now?
:unsure:
Get that 1st serve going, which would open up the court. Throw in more variety. He has a top notch fh dropshot which catches even Djokovic off guard let alone anyone else.
 

AO13

Hall of Fame
What if there is a guy like Djokovic in say 20 years but he has no rivals at any point so he wins like 35 slams. Would that guy's case for GOAT be strengthed or weakened? He will have obliterated all the big 3's records, but he won't have had the tough competition that the big 3 had for most of their careers

There won't be "a guy like Djokovic" in 20 years, simply because there won't be guys like Nadal and Federer. For a Djokovic to exist, there has to be Nadal and Federer, the co-GOATs, in the same era.

And that is never going to happen again. Ever.
 

Phoenix*

Professional
Messi just goated the world cup at 35. Mid thirties is still prime in today's era.

And yes, it seems like newcomers are unable to leapfrog after their game gets exposed.
 

Midaso240

Legend
There won't be "a guy like Djokovic" in 20 years, simply because there won't be guys like Nadal and Federer. For a Djokovic to exist, there has to be Nadal and Federer, the co-GOATs, in the same era.

And that is never going to happen again. Ever.
I more mean just a player with that sort of mentality. Every now and then they come along:

Michael Jordan
Tiger Woods
Lance Armstrong (aged badly)
Floyd Mayweather

Just these ultra-competitive alpha guys where they're just like "I WILL be breaking those records, I WILL be beating you and there's not a damn thing you can do about it". That player will be chasing the records to the end of the earth, even if there's no particular player. I mean, Serena Williams never had a true rival for most of her career (Venus for some of the earlier years, Henin maybe for a couple) and still got to 23
 

NeutralFan

G.O.A.T.
Messi just goated the world cup at 35. Mid thirties is still prime in today's era.

And yes, it seems like newcomers are unable to leapfrog after their game gets exposed.

Not just world cup but he's leading the G+A chart this season with 24 goals + 18 Assist while playing deeper than he used to .also leading stats like most chances created , key passes and still one of the top dribbling stats per game.
 

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Not just world cup but he's leading the G+A chart this season with 24 goals + 18 Assist while playing deeper than he used to .also leading stats like most chances created , key passes and still one of the top dribbling stats per game.
Who will win, PSG with his fantastic attacking trio or the compact machinery of Bayern Munich?
:)
 

NeutralFan

G.O.A.T.
Who will win, PSG with his fantastic attacking trio or the compact machinery of Bayern Munich?
:)

PsG defense is utter crap so it's unlikely they will win. Also, i don't care who wins since my club is already out in group stage.
 

NeutralFan

G.O.A.T.
No comparison to his best years (and those were in La Liga), but people tend to ignore this part when they draw parallels between him and Djokodal.

That's not the point , he's still leading G+A while playing way deeper than he used to moreover he is more of a playmaker. Different player than he used to. 24G+18 Assist in 28 matches for the club and the country is insane that too playing from deep and also topping chances created , key passes etc. Is KM a mug since LM AT 35 IS still the best player ? Topped assist and chances creation at WC at 35.
 

duaneeo

Legend
To those who refuse to admit the weakness of the Medvedev/Tsitsipas/Berrettini/Rublev/Zverev generation, can you at least admit the weakness of the Nishkori/Dimitrov/Raonic/Sock/Goffin/Tomic generation?
 

Rafa4LifeEver

G.O.A.T.
Already have a thread over this
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Mainly what it tells us is Nadal/Djokovic struggle with unfamiliar opponents. We saw it yesterday with Korda. Once they've played them a few times and learned all their patterns, they know how to beat them
That is what I was thinking too that they have now developed tactics to defeat each of the young players who all have weaknesses. The Big 2 don’t have any big holes in their game and it is not easy to game plan against them.

Many of the newer players serve and hit harder than previous generations along with being tall guys with good reach who still move well. When they came onto the scene, it took a while for the Big 2 to figure out all their weaknesses which they could exploit. In a couple of cases, losing important Slam matches to the Big 2 seems to have set them back mentally for subsequent matchups.
 

AO13

Hall of Fame
I more mean just a player with that sort of mentality. Every now and then they come along:

Michael Jordan
Tiger Woods
Lance Armstrong (aged badly)
Floyd Mayweather

Just these ultra-competitive alpha guys where they're just like "I WILL be breaking those records, I WILL be beating you and there's not a damn thing you can do about it". That player will be chasing the records to the end of the earth, even if there's no particular player. I mean, Serena Williams never had a true rival for most of her career (Venus for some of the earlier years, Henin maybe for a couple) and still got to 23

I understand what you mean.

There is a possibility for that. But if Novak continues to play like this, wins 3 or 4 more Grand Slams, I think it's game over for eternity. He will be that guy in your post.
 
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