The Nextgen on grass....

clout

clout

Hall of Fame
...is not pretty.

Stefanos: 8-7 record (0 titles, 0 finals and 0 top 10 wins); results at WI: 1R, 4R, 1R - all career titles and finals are on hard or clay

Zverev: 24-14 record (0 titles, 2 finals and 1 top 10 win); results at WI: 2R, 3R, 4R, 3R, 1R - all 11 career titles are on hard or clay

Medvedev: 18-12 record (0 titles, 0 finals and 1 top 10 win); results at WI: 2R, 3R, 3R - all 7 career titles are on hard

Shapovalov: 3-9 record (0 titles, 0 finals and 0 top 10 wins); results at WI: 1R, 2R, 1R - lone career title was on hard and he's yet to win consecutive matches on grass

Thiem (I know he isn't nextgen but he's still considered a "young" player: 14-14 record (1 title, 1 finals, 1 win vs top 10 players); results at WI: 1R, 2R, 2R, 4R, 1R, 1R - all but one of his 16 titles are on either hard or clay

Khachenov: 14-7 record (0 titles, 0 finals, 1 wins v top 10 players); results at WI: 3R, 4R, 3R - all career titles are on hard

Rublev: 4-3 record (0 titles, 0 finals, 0 wins v top 10 players); results at WI: 2R, A, 2R - all career titles and finals are on hard or clay
 
What's not pretty isn't their win/loss, but the fact that none of them have even played 50 professional matches on grass. Strip away Wimbledon, which doesn't even play like grass any more and it's even worse.

Out of those, Tsitsipas obviously has the game most suited to proper grass court tennis. He's just virtually never played on grass and likely won't get much opportunity to unless his team goes out of their way to make that happen.

Despite being labelled as merely a clay courter, I'd say Thiem is second most likely. Khachenov has been making progress, playing a bit of doubles and Shapo really hasn't done a thing .. on anything.

If they don't fix the surface at Wimbledon, Medvedev will probably clean up there in the coming years. I like Medvedev, but that would be sad because like the current Wimby champion, Daniil's net game is terrible.
 
Marat-Safin-887233.jpg


"Grass is for cows"
 
even nick sucks on grass which is bizarre
the nadalovicray generation is the last generation that would have been developing when s&v and forecourt coverage were still important and so lost gen/next gen never learned how to play that kind of tennis
 
clout said:
...is not pretty.

Stefanos: 8-7 record (0 titles, 0 finals and 0 top 10 wins); results at WI: 1R, 4R, 1R - all career titles and finals are on hard or clay

Zverev: 24-14 record (0 titles, 2 finals and 1 top 10 win); results at WI: 2R, 3R, 4R, 3R, 1R - all 11 career titles are on hard or clay

Medvedev: 18-12 record (0 titles, 0 finals and 1 top 10 win); results at WI: 2R, 3R, 3R - all 7 career titles are on hard

Shapovalov: 3-9 record (0 titles, 0 finals and 0 top 10 wins); results at WI: 1R, 2R, 1R - lone career title was on hard and he's yet to win consecutive matches on grass

Thiem (I know he isn't nextgen but he's still considered a "young" player: 14-14 record (1 title, 1 finals, 1 win vs top 10 players); results at WI: 1R, 2R, 2R, 4R, 1R, 1R - all but one of his 16 titles are on either hard or clay

Khachenov: 14-7 record (0 titles, 0 finals, 1 wins v top 10 players); results at WI: 3R, 4R, 3R - all career titles are on hard

Rublev: 4-3 record (0 titles, 0 finals, 0 wins v top 10 players); results at WI: 2R, A, 2R - all career titles and finals are on hard or clay
Click to expand...
Hmmmm:unsure: You've delierately left out the best one or is this just general incompetence?:sneaky:
 
tonylg said:
I watched him play Davis Cup on grass with Kafelnikov when he was 19. Before the tie, the Russians were trash talking about how much they'd win by. They got pummelled by 18 year Hewitt and company. Kafelnikov called the court a potato patch Safin lost his sh1t multiple times.

I miss proper grass court tennis.
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But Marat has the game to play on ''real'' grass. In wimbledon 2001, the grass played much faster than today, and he reached the quarterfinals, losing to eventual winner Goran
 
arvind13 said:
But Marat has the game to play on ''real'' grass. In wimbledon 2001, the grass played much faster than today, and he reached the quarterfinals, losing to eventual winner Goran
Click to expand...

LOL .. you're calling that his hightlight? He beat Knowle, Nestor, Prinosil and Clement, admitting that he would have lost to Nestor if Daniel had not rolled his ankle and been forced to retire.

In the Davis Cup tie I mentioned, he was beaten by Hewitt (in Hewitt's very first Davis Cup appearance) and Wayne Arthurs (not that Arthurs was a slouch on grass).

By today's standards, Safin would be a grass court hero, but he couldn't even win a match against our B team back in the day (Rafter and Philippoussis were out injured).
 
tonylg said:
What a sad indictment of the current state of grass court tennis.
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Grass shouldnt be a surface anymore. There is no way to practice on it. Tournaments are probably the only time the next gen get to play on one.

Outdated surface, far too uncommon today
 
There's 3 challengers worth 125 points each leading up to Wimby. Not to mention the 3 or 4 250s and 2 500s.
 
Chadalina said:
Grass shouldnt be a surface anymore. There is no way to practice on it. Tournaments are probably the only time the next gen get to play on one.

Outdated surface, far too uncommon today
Click to expand...

I'll lay money there are more grass courts in Europe than there are clay courts in Australia.
 
List of semifinalists over the last 5 Wimbledon's and their age at the time:

2019:
Djokovic, 32
Federer, 37 (going on 38)
Nadal, 33
Bautista Agut, 31

2018:
Djokovic, 31
Nadal, 32
Anderson, 33
Isner, 33

2017:
Federer, 35 (going on 36)
Cilic, 28 (going on 29)
Berdych, 31 (going on 32)
Querrey, 29 (going on 30)

2016:
Murray, 29
Raonic, 25 (going on 26)
Federer, 34 (going on 35)
Berdych, 30 (going on 31)

2015:
Djokovic, 28
Federer, 33 (going on 34)
Murray, 28
Gasquet, 29

*Going on = players with birthday months after mid-July
 
Chadalina said:
Grass shouldnt be a surface anymore. There is no way to practice on it. Tournaments are probably the only time the next gen get to play on one.

Outdated surface, far too uncommon today
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This is all part of the prestigous Musuem Slam circuit capped off with Newport and its museum which also features historic bad bounce grass courts admired by curators of this circuit.
 
clout said:
List of semifinalists over the last 5 Wimbledon's and their age at the time:

2019:
Djokovic, 32
Federer, 37 (going on 38)
Nadal, 33
Bautista Agut, 31

2018:
Djokovic, 31
Nadal, 32
Anderson, 33
Isner, 33

2017:
Federer, 35 (going on 36)
Cilic, 28 (going on 29)
Berdych, 31 (going on 32)
Querrey, 29 (going on 30)

2016:
Murray, 29
Raonic, 25 (going on 26)
Federer, 34 (going on 35)
Berdych, 30 (going on 31)

2015:
Djokovic, 28
Federer, 33 (going on 34)
Murray, 28
Gasquet, 29

*Going on = players with birthday months after mid-July
Click to expand...
Looks like an excellent place for the elders of the game to hole up before they're extinguished.;)
 
Meles said:
Nope you failed. :sneaky: See post below your question.
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FAA isn't really next gen, he's part of the baby gen (born after 2000). He's played so little that it's hard to make a judgement. All the players I listed above have played at least 2-3 years on the surface, so I can at least make an early assessment of their performance on grass. \

It's not to say they won't be great on grass; on the day Novak turned 27, he held just 1 career title at Wimbledon and now he's won it 5 times!
 
Meles said:
Looks like an excellent place for the elders of the game to hole up before they're extinguished.;)
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The big 3 gen is tennis' version of real life boomers. They're the most wealthy gen and are simply not retiring because they all still work at the top of their professions and companies, hence making it difficult for the next/gen (real life Millennials) to gain major career progression.
 
tonylg said:
I don't think FAA, Shap, Khach or Rublev have done enough to be considered in the same category as Tsitsipas, Medvedev, Thiem and Zverev.
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Grass is just a serve fest plus its completely unknown to younger players for the most part. FAA skipped it to play clay in 2018 and made the final of his first grass court ATP event. Sounds good to me.:cool:

Any of your precious goats do that?:-D

Once again you numb nuts left out the other best young grass court player. I'm not hinting this time. Have you guys watched tennis lately or just focusing on woolpants play before the advent of rye?:sneaky: @clout Have you gentleman seen your grades lately?
 
clout said:
FAA isn't really next gen, he's part of the baby gen (born after 2000). He's played so little that it's hard to make a judgement. All the players I listed above have played at least 2-3 years on the surface, so I can at least make an early assessment of their performance on grass. \

It's not to say they won't be great on grass; on the day Novak turned 27, he held just 1 career title at Wimbledon and now he's won it 5 times!
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You're out. Finished at TTW. I want you off this campus at 9 o'clock Monday morning.
ngf_qualify_1920x1080_faav3.jpg
 
Meles said:
Looks like an excellent place for the elders of the game to hole up before they're extinguished.;)
Click to expand...
AO semifinalists the last 5 years:
2019:
Djokovic, 31
Nadal, 32
Stefanos, 20 (got crushed in semis)
Pouille, 24 (got crushed in semis)

2018:
Federer, 36
Cilic, 30
Chung, 21 (got crushed in semis)
Edmund, 23 (got crushed in semis)

2017:
Federer, 35
Nadal, 30
Wawrinka, 31
Dimitrov, 25

2016:
Djokovic, 28
Murray, 28
Federer, 34
Raonic, 25

2015:
Djokovic, 27
Murray, 27
Berdych, 29
Wawrinka, 29

French Open semifinalists the last 5 years:
2019:
Nadal, 33
Thiem, 25
Djokovic, 32
Federer, 37

2018:
Nadal, 32
Thiem, 24
Chechinnato, 25 (got crushed in the semis)
Del Potro, 29

2017:
Nadal, 31
Wawrinka, 32
Murray, 30
Thiem, 23

2016:
Djokovic, 29
Murray, 29
Wawrinka, 31
Thiem, 22

2015:
Wawrinka, 30
Djokovic, 28
Murray, 28
Tsonga, 30

US Open semifinalists the last 5 years:
2019:
Nadal, 33
Medvdev, 23
Berretini, 23
Dimitrov, 28

2018:
Djokovic, 31
Del Potro, 30
Nadal, 32
Nishikori, 28

2017:
Nadal, 31
Anderson, 31
Del Potro, 29
Carreno Busta, 25

2016:
Wawrinka, 31
Djokovic, 29
Nishikori, 26
Monfils, 30

2015:
Djokovic, 28
Federer, 34
Wawrinka, 30
Cilic, 27

The only consistent 25 and under performer has been Thiem at the French Open and the only major in the last 5 seasons where 25 and under players made up the majority in the semis was this past US Open but even then, Nadal was the winner.
 
Why do you players not do so well on grass?:
1. Return - this does not peak until age 23, so its harderer to break out but some may get the job done like Fed the year they turn 22.
2. Serve - this does not peak til probably in the early 30's
3. Old Serverers - we have a lot of fine serving players that are now veterans, they are at their best on serve and the grass field is loaded with them since clay and US Open series hard courts aren't as friendly any more. So at this particular moment we have and have had a lot of solid serving on grass and so young players have a harder time breaking
4. Young Servers - no matter how good always are unreliable and get broken at some point.

Now in the past on low bouncing courts and a tour with a lot more low bouncing surfaces like carpet, taller players were at a distinct disadvantage on tour, so there were a lot less big servers. Speed was the critical asset on tour and we had younger champions across the board and a different game on grass. Graphite rackets helped serve and then Poly helped serving as well. Generally poly favors the older players on tour so that's why you have the grass field loaded up even more so these days with crafty oldsters. Average age on tour ancienterer plus grass favors the elderly more than it every has and grass has become the retirement circuit.
 
clout said:
AO semifinalists the last 5 years:
2019:
Djokovic, 31
Nadal, 32
Stefanos, 20 (got crushed in semis)
Pouille, 24 (got crushed in semis)

2018:
Federer, 36
Cilic, 30
Chung, 21 (got crushed in semis)
Edmund, 23 (got crushed in semis)

2017:
Federer, 35
Nadal, 30
Wawrinka, 31
Dimitrov, 25

2016:
Djokovic, 28
Murray, 28
Federer, 34
Raonic, 25

2015:
Djokovic, 27
Murray, 27
Berdych, 29
Wawrinka, 29

French Open semifinalists the last 5 years:
2019:
Nadal, 33
Thiem, 25
Djokovic, 32
Federer, 37

2018:
Nadal, 32
Thiem, 24
Chechinnato, 25 (got crushed in the semis)
Del Potro, 29

2017:
Nadal, 31
Wawrinka, 32
Murray, 30
Thiem, 23

2016:
Djokovic, 29
Murray, 29
Wawrinka, 31
Thiem, 22

2015:
Wawrinka, 30
Djokovic, 28
Murray, 28
Tsonga, 30

US Open semifinalists the last 5 years:
2019:
Nadal, 33
Medvdev, 23
Berretini, 23
Dimitrov, 28

2018:
Djokovic, 31
Del Potro, 30
Nadal, 32
Nishikori, 28

2017:
Nadal, 31
Anderson, 31
Del Potro, 29
Carreno Busta, 25

2016:
Wawrinka, 31
Djokovic, 29
Nishikori, 26
Monfils, 30

2015:
Djokovic, 28
Federer, 34
Wawrinka, 30
Cilic, 27

The only consistent 25 and under performer has been Thiem at the French Open and the only major in the last 5 seasons where 25 and under players made up the majority in the semis was this past US Open but even then, Nadal was the winner.
Click to expand...
So you're blaming 20 year olds for this?
screwy.gif


Your data just proves the point that grass is the retirement circuit with much older average ages.

Clearly the problem lies with Nishikori, Dimitrov, Raonic, and many others. Here's a convenient list of these greats from Equippe at the end of 2013:
b5KXhV1RYf7NKfoDtxnfg6Dwrzo0u6_kOseMoU7eSSo.jpg


These are the players that have been failing on grass.
 
Meles said:
So you're blaming 20 year olds for this?
screwy.gif


Your data just proves the point that grass is the retirement circuit with much older average ages.

Clearly the problem lies with Nishikori, Dimitrov, Raonic, and many others. Here's a convenient list of these greats from Equippe at the end of 2013:
b5KXhV1RYf7NKfoDtxnfg6Dwrzo0u6_kOseMoU7eSSo.jpg


These are the players that have been failing on grass.
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Actually, the late rounds at all the slams have featured players who are older and have been around for a while...
 
clout said:
Actually, the late rounds at all the slams have featured players who are older and have been around for a while...
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No wonder you're flunking as thats just not very precise.:rolleyes: I'd say peak/prime these days starts around age 23 like with Medvedev this year and goes until at least age 32 as Djokovic has shown possible this year. Djoko peaked on return the year he turned 24 for a peak year in 2011. Peak 2nd serving with Becker got him a peak at 2015/2016. And he's just had another peak (4 of 5 slams) fueled by a late career serve retool (Nadal much the same with two serve retools with a late peak this year at age 33, save indoors and grass.)

So the problem has been your friendly pigeons in Lost Gen who've been getting chewed up for the most part. That is why the averages are so high right now. Its great for the Big 3 who as they get older keep dining on familiar pigeons. Its great for Next Gen because they aren't pigeons.

Even the king of the pigeons, Berdych had some reasonable grass play late in his career. Very friendly surface for elderly pigeons these days.:sneaky:
 
Waiting on the bonus 3rd talent which is very unfair for failing students, but a star pupil might have the answer
kguexhh100hx.png
 
SamprasisGOAT said:
Tsitsipas said in a recent interview that grass was his best surface and his favourite
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Well winning on fast indoor does bolster that claim, but he does not have a great return game for grass, but his returning in general should at least improve for two more years.

Tsits has delusions of grandeur and actually is a fine clay court player and that is where his best stats lie by far whether he likes it or not.:sneaky:

Tsits is not the bonus answer and I'm sure was mentioned quite a bit in this thread already.

Shapo suffers from the same affliction on return, but he's 18 months youngerer and just put up great return numbers in Stockholm and Paris (especially if one omits the final). We might find a pleasant surprise next year if this giant boost in returning extends to grass. Shapo's serve was screwed up in the Summer of 2018 and its just getting back on track and it should be a great asset on grass something it was not in 2019.

Again not the bonus answers. So two players still missing.
 
Meles said:
No wonder you're flunking as thats just not very precise.:rolleyes: I'd say peak/prime these days starts around age 23 like with Medvedev this year and goes until at least age 32 as Djokovic has shown possible this year. Djoko peaked on return the year he turned 24 for a peak year in 2011. Peak 2nd serving with Becker got him a peak at 2015/2016. And he's just had another peak (4 of 5 slams) fueled by a late career serve retool (Nadal much the same with two serve retools with a late peak this year at age 33, save indoors and grass.)

So the problem has been your friendly pigeons in Lost Gen who've been getting chewed up for the most part. That is why the averages are so high right now. Its great for the Big 3 who as they get older keep dining on familiar pigeons. Its great for Next Gen because they aren't pigeons.

Even the king of the pigeons, Berdych had some reasonable grass play late in his career. Very friendly surface for elderly pigeons these days.:sneaky:
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Until anyone under 30 wins a major, I'm not fully bought onto anyone. It's exciting that we're finally seeing some new faces but until they win the actual big titles or become number one (hell even top 2), let's slow our roles when discussing about where the youngsters stand in comparison to the legends. It's the same in every sport; the youngsters have the hype but they gotta proving it on the biggest stage in order to be mentioned alongside the established superstars/all-time greats
 
tonylg said:
I'd never seen a clay court until I went to Europe.
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Assuming your North American, Quebec in Canada has a ton of clay courts to practice on which is why FAA's preferred surface is clay. I've heard Georgia has a lot of clay courts as well but don't quote me on this one
tonylg said:
Be happy to never see one again too.
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My shoes agree with this statement. ;) It was fun to try the red dirt once but my game fits HCs a lot more tbh
 
clout said:
Until anyone under 30 wins a major, I'm not fully bought onto anyone. It's exciting that we're finally seeing some new faces but until they win the actual big titles or become number one (hell even top 2), let's slow our roles when discussing about where the youngsters stand in comparison to the legends. It's the same in every sport; the youngsters have the hype but they gotta proving it on the biggest stage in order to be mentioned alongside the established superstars/all-time greats
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No, no you're not bailing out on this monster thread you created that easily. Your GPA is still 0.0 Bluto.;)

The biggest stage is the O2 arena outside of the US Open, so Big 3 occuppy one of four positions this year. IW and Beijing come in at 3 and 4 in size. And Big 3 have 1 of 4 spots again.:-D
 
clout said:
Assuming your North American, Quebec in Canada has a ton of clay courts to practice on which is why FAA's preferred surface is clay. I've heard Georgia has a lot of clay courts as well but don't quote me on this one

My shoes agree with this statement. ;) It was fun to try the red dirt once but my game fits HCs a lot more tbh
Click to expand...
Who other than you said FAA's preferred surface was clay?

Real clay courts are made from crushed brick like in Europe and South America. Real clay is a rarity in US & Canada because of people not liking red clay getting everywhere including their shoes.:sneaky: The fake stuff is less expensive to maintain as well.
 
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