The Official Lead Tape Placement+Racket Customization Thread

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by xFullCourtTenniSx, Jan 29, 2010.

  1. mischiefalex

    mischiefalex New User

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    Hey guys,

    I have a question about long strips vs short strips lead tape. Would the swing weight will be same if

    Lead applied at
    12:00 - 4x 7 inches lead tape (2 layers)
    10:00 to 2:00 - 2x 15 inch lead tape (1 layer)

    What would be the benefit or pros/cons using one over the other setups?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Crie

    Crie Rookie

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    This won't answer your question, but it will give you some insight into racquet physics.

    Other than swingweight, there is another xweight that goes unnoticed. That is twistweight. Twistweight is how much the racquet twists side to side(9 and 3 o'clock). If you ever google Djokovic Racquet you will see long strips of lead tape that go from 2-5 and 7-10 o'clock. That is used to increase twistweight.

    Benefits of high twistweight is (14+) more Stability/forgiving on off-center hits (also interpretted as HUGE sweetspot but really the twistweight). However the downside to high twistweight is that it makes the racquet less maneuverable. Djokovic is really good at returning because even if you get just a little bit of the ball on that racquet, it still deflects the ball with alot of pace. Think Stan too. You really know when he slaps a forehand cross court and when he kinda miss-hits but still gets depth and penetrates the court. Mostly thanks to huge twistweight.

    Benefits of low twistweight (<13.5) is that it is very maneuverable and whippy. It requires less muscles/force to move the racquet at the same speed as if you were using a high twistweight racquet. Downside is that you kinda have to hit the sweetspot to make used of the racquet. Nadal, Federer both have a low twistweight set up. They generally use high topspin to control their shots; having a more maneuverable racquet helps with topspin.
     
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  3. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Would the SW be the same. No and neither would the TW.

    What are the benefits, can't think of a single one.
     
  4. movdqa

    movdqa G.O.A.T.

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    I wouldn't say that the RF97 has a low twistweight. Maybe mid-range. Berdych, with two-layers of 6 inch lead at 3/9 likely uses a high twistweight. There are a few other players out there with this kind of setup too.
     
  5. Crie

    Crie Rookie

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    RF97 is not his actual racquet. But this thread was meant for that...

    I was talking about his 90s. I should have mentioned it*
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  6. DrWang

    DrWang New User

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    Every little bit adds up. I have two Head Graphene Touch Speed S. I decided to carefully weight everything out just to see how much adds up. Here are some of the different accessories I experimented with. Not sure the accuracy of the scale.

    Tecnifibre Overgrip Black- 5.7 grams (cut)
    Luxilon Dry Overgrip Gray- 3.6 grams (cut) 4.8 grams (uncut)

    Head Bumper Tape- 3.6 grams
    Head Bumper Tape- 2.8 grams (cut 41cm)
    Babolat Bumber Tape- 3.8 grams
    Gamma Bumber Tape- 3.0 grams (cut 41cm)

    Luxilon Dampener- 2.9 grams
    Head Dampener- 3.2 grams
    Yonex Dampener- 4.0 grams

    Strings Cyclone Tour 18g 1.20mm 14.3 grams

    Total Weight-

    287.0 grams (bare, no strings)
    301.3 grams (strings only)
    304.3 grams (strings, Head dampener)
    308.3 grams (strings, Head dampener, Head tape)
    308.3 grams (strings, Head dampener, Luxilon grip)
    311.0 grams (strings, Head dampener, Luxilon grip, Head tape cut 41cm)
    311.8 grams (strings, Head dampener, Luxilon grip, Head tape)

    Specs from Head-
    Length - 27"
    Weight - 303.4 grams strung
    Balance- 33.02
    SW- 312
    TW- 14.84

    Specs using the TWH worksheet (311.0 grams configuration above)

    Length - 27"
    Weight - 311.0 grams
    Balance - 33.02
    SW - 321.2
    TW - 14.84

    I have no idea how accurate those numbers from the spreadsheet are. The racquet feels pretty good though.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
  7. mb82

    mb82 New User

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    Finally have some pritt buddies ( like blu tack) and started adding some weight to my Aero Pro Drive GT 15.

    I added:

    4 grams at 12
    3 grams at 3
    3 grams at 9

    10 grams in the butt cap.

    Tomorrow I will go to the tennis court and will add or remove some weight based on my findings.

    I'm slowly learning.. but is there some way to calculate how much swingweight I added with the above specifications?

    Did I put enough counterweight in the butt cap?

    Does somebody have some tips for me about where I should remove or add some weight before I go to the courts tomorrow?

    Maybe advise for a more balanced setup or some recommendations?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  8. Karma Tennis

    Karma Tennis Professional

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    I can tell you that our stock 2013 APDs (there is no 2015 model, you are talking about the 2013 model release). 10 grams inside the handle and 6 grams at 12 produced a SW in the high 320s / low 330s. Adding the extra weight at 3 and 9 will certainly make the SW at least 330 imo.

    Personally, I would not add weight at 3 and 9 for starters. See how the more polarised config. works for you. I think you will be surprised how stable the racquet is and how much extra spin potential you will get on your Serve and FH if you have the right stroke technique. You should also find it a lot easier to handle incoming balls from big hitters as well. (6 grams at 12 might be too much for you so start with 3g or 4g and work your way up from there over a period of a couple of weeks of hitting.)

    I'm assuming that you have a topspin oriented game. If you are a flat server / flat ground stroke hitter / primarily Doubles player, then it might be better to put less weight at 12 and a bit of weight at 10 and 2.
     
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  9. mb82

    mb82 New User

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    Yes I have a topspin oriented game. Okay I will start with the 10 grams inside the handle and 4 grams at 12 and go from there. Going to try it out today..thanks very much.
     
  10. Karma Tennis

    Karma Tennis Professional

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    BTW, if you use a Dampener you need to consider the effect of it on the overall polarisation of the racquet. My suggestions are always based on a clean string bed (ie no dampener) and 16 Gauge (1.30mm) Poly strings in a full bed.

    Let us know how you go :)
     
  11. mb82

    mb82 New User

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    I use a Babolat custom dampener right now, it's around 1 gram and I have 1.25mm RPMB rough in my racket now.

    Just ordered 1.25 and 1.20 diadem solstice power and I will go to my stringer soon after I recieve the strings.

    Ofcourse I will let you guys know how it goes.
     
  12. VoodooBoot

    VoodooBoot Semi-Pro

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    How much do you think a dampener changes the balance and SW of a racquet?




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  13. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    That would depend on the weight of the dampener and its placement. If your dampener weighs 3 g (0.003 kg) and it is 25 cm above the 10 cm SW axis. You SW increase would be (25*25*.003) 1.875.
     
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  14. VoodooBoot

    VoodooBoot Semi-Pro

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    Assuming your calculation is correct, that would be negligible to almost everybody.


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  15. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    By golly I believe you're right but putting a dampener in your racket is very noticeable. Let that dampener fall out and see what happens. Myself I hate dampeners.

    EDIT: On a side note when I first got into playing around with MgR/I values on my racket I started with an MgR/I of 20.8 and started adding #64 rubber band around the top of the grip. Those weigh just over 1 g and change the SW much less. The bigger changes are in balance and Inertia (SW at the butt cap.) It was amazing to me I could notice even such small differences. On the other hand some people don't think it works - go figure.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2017
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  16. VoodooBoot

    VoodooBoot Semi-Pro

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    I used to use dampeners, stopped 2 years ago. The little vibrations, and the sound, completely change the experience, like playing with two similar, but somehow different racquets.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  17. mb82

    mb82 New User

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    So I played with my Aeropro Drive GT with 10 grams added inside the handle and 4 grams at 12 and it felt really good. I could play a more heavy ball and I think the heavier racket is probably a lot better for my arm because of the better plow through.

    Played a set against somebody and I won easily. Before the second set started I put 2 more grams at 12 and I began to make a lot of errors, it didn't feel very nice. But also the string in my racket was over 2 months old and I played regularly with it. (RPMB rough strung @ 22.5/21 kg.)

    Tomorrow I will have fresh strings.. Solstice Power @ 26/25 kg in it so then I will start experiment further.

    Will start again with 10 grams inside the handle and 4 grams at 12 and go from there. Maybe remove 1 gram at 12 to see how it feels or ad 2 grams at 3 and 9 to see how that feels.

    I liked the added weight for sure so thanks for the help all.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
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  18. frugal

    frugal Rookie

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    Hello friends,

    Another nice post to follow.

    I will read and come back to you!

    Thank you.
     
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  19. robbo1970

    robbo1970 Hall of Fame

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    I am thinking about adding some weight to a racquet that will basically just make it feel a bit heavier overall.

    I've tried the classic method of weight on the hoop and at the butt cap, but it didn't feel right somehow. I could notice a bit more drag to the tip of the racquet, but not so much near the butt cap, despite making sure I had even weight applied.

    What I am now thinking about is adding the required amount of additional weight just at the point at the top of the handle, where grip meets throat. My instincts tell me that this will increase the overall static weight, without pulling the balance in one direct or another.

    My instincts have betrayed me before, so any insight from anyone who has just applied weight at this point on a racquet would be appreciated. I guess I am talking about this 7 inch from the butt cap point.

    Cheers
     
  20. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Think again, you can't add weight without increasing static weight, changing balance and or inertia. Besides adding weight what are you trying to do, and why do you want more static weight/
     
  21. robbo1970

    robbo1970 Hall of Fame

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    I want the racquet to feel heavier in terms of its static weight, but without affecting the SW too much. I tried just adding weight near the butt cap, but I think because it was right in my hand that I couldn't feel much difference at all.
     
  22. VoodooBoot

    VoodooBoot Semi-Pro

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    How much did you add? And what's the total weight?




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  23. robbo1970

    robbo1970 Hall of Fame

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    It's a light racquet at about 305g stock, and I added 15g. I just couldn't feel any difference. But I just felt that if I added more to the area of the butt cap end, all it's going to do is shift the balance too far down.
     
  24. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    The more weight you add near the butt of the handle the less change you will have on SW. Actually the mass (in Kg gram/1000) times the distance squared will be the increase. So if you add 4 grams 20 cm from butt you SW at 0 cm goes up (.004*20*20) 1,6. At the same time because you balance point is above the point where you added weight you balance will go down.

    Adding weight anywhere without knowing what you have before you start and what you will end up with is pretty much hit and miss. Chances are you won't like it. There are more poor places on a racket to add mass than there are right places for you. I think you would be better off leaving your racket alone and just play more.
     
  25. robbo1970

    robbo1970 Hall of Fame

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    I've said above what I currently have. 305g stock static weight, SW is about 306ish. No worries though, I'll work it out for myself.
     
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  26. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    305 stock could be 305ish, I'm not sure if the weight or SW is strung or not. And neither of us know what you're looking for good luck working it out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  27. zalive

    zalive Hall of Fame

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    If you observe what happens when hitting, you will feel that adding weight to the handle usually palpably increases power. We know it's not because of SW. There are few explanation. One is increase of MgR/I which can make a racquet whippier - but it usually applies when you put mass at the top of the handle, or along the handle like heavier basic/replacement grip, heavier or additional overgrip...second explanation is increase in SW2. But I don't think this covers it much since even for SW2, handle is almost negligeable compared to the hoop contribution, since any swing weight is proportional to square of a distance from measuring point.

    The third one is increase of recoil weight. I think this explains it the most. Why? Because whenever ball and string bed collide, whatever RHS is on racquet's head, there will be a tendency to rotate the racquet around it's COM. So while RHS makes a difference in a relation of significance or RHS/SW, RW being the inertia of rotation around racquet's COM is what makes a racquet more inert, so it translates into a power too...contributing as a smaller part for the groundstrokes, but it will still contributes and it can be felt (I feel it). Now as for volleying and returns the power of RW will be more significant because speed of incoming ball is higher and RHS is lower, so the influence of RW on power increases.

    You should feel the difference...I usually feel a difference of 4-5 grams added near the butt cap clearly.
     
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  28. Roland G

    Roland G Professional

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    Hoping for some advice from you lead tape and customization experts.

    I have a Dunlop M3.0 which plays pretty nice for me. Only mod is a leather grip (+10g) and strung with Max Power Rough.

    The racquet is light, 298g unstrung and I feel I could handle a little more weight and would like a touch more power on serves and groundies. The SW is around 315 and the balance is 32.8.

    Can anyone recommend some lead tape adjustments for the frame which will increase swingweight nd power while keeping it maneuverable with the balance point still in the ballpark?

    Thanks
     
  29. zalive

    zalive Hall of Fame

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    @Roland G :
    You can try one of following things:
    • 2 grams at 12 o'clock, counterbalance with 4 grams at the top of the handle (around 18 cm from the butt cap) - total 6 grams added
    • 3 grams total (1.5 grams + 1.5 grams) at 2+10 o'clock, counterbalance with 2 grams near the butt cap, plus possibly 1 gram at the top of the handle, to compensate the swing speed - total 5-6 grams added
    • If you want a twist weight to improve, you can try as well with 2+2 grams at 3+9 o'clock, counterbalance with 2 grams near the butt cap - total 6 grams added
    You can use different quantities but keep the proportions. You can add few more grams near the butt cap to make it even more head light, if that feels fine to you, it will further improve stability and can help maneuverability.
    Proposed counterbalancing will keep the balance approximately as it was and should preserve how racquet swings - since you're fine with how it hits now, it's not the bad idea to keep both while adding a bit of power and stability.
     
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  30. Roland G

    Roland G Professional

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    Great, thanks for this. I'm assuming the first option would have the greatest influence on SW, would that be right?

    If so, that's probably the route I'll go first.
     
  31. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    @zalive & @Roland G
    Not sure what you're trying to accomplish. Do you want the balance to be the same before or after you added the leather grip and strung or unstrung? Is the balance, and SW you quoted unstrung too? If no one knows for sure what you're saying you could get a lot of different interpretations.
     
  32. Roland G

    Roland G Professional

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    Yes, the SW, weight and balance quoted is strung, with leather grip.

    Yes, I would like to keep (roughly) the same balance.

    My goal is to increase static and swingweight to increase power.
     
  33. zalive

    zalive Hall of Fame

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    In fact that one increases SW the least, but all three fall within 6-7 pts SW increase.

    If you have idea how much would you like to increase the SW then you can use different quantities at the hoop. Just keep the proportions between hoop lead and handle lead/mass as proposed, together with positions. You can always fine tune later by your feel. Proposed change is not drastic, you will noticeably feel the increase in power, though.

    If you want, for example, to increase SW by 10 points, then multiply quantities by 1.5x.
     
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  34. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    The mass times distance then must be the same on both sides of the balance point. If you add 3 g at 12 o'clock you will raise the SW up 10 points which is a good amount to begin with. If 12 o'clock is 68 cm from butt then it is 35.2 cm above the 32.8 balance point. Let's say the weight you want to add is at the top of the grip or 18 cm from butt which is 14.8 cm below the balance point of 32.8. Now you can do the math to see how much weight must be added at 18 cm to get a balance again of 32.8. 14.8m = 3*35.2 then m = 7 g. You will have increased the total weight by 10 g and SW by 10 points.
     
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  35. Roland G

    Roland G Professional

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    Thanks everyone for the advice.

    I've done the customization as per the advice on here - 3g at 12 and 6g towards the top of the handle. The result is two frames at exactly 345g with OG and dampener and a balance point at 32.8, as before.

    They feel good and swing well but alas, I won't get them on court until the weekend but I'm confident they'll be what I was after.[​IMG]
     
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  36. rectoralex

    rectoralex Rookie

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    If I want more control but don't necessarily desire a higher swingweight, put the tape at 3 & 9 or at 12?
     
  37. Backhanded Compliment

    Backhanded Compliment Legend

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    Depends on how you derive control?

    if you feel too much twisting try 3 and 9

    if you want bigger spin a little at 12 will help or just look at your strings. a few lbs more can aid control and a spinnier copoly can aid control there too.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017 at 2:38 PM
  38. Muppet

    Muppet Hall of Fame

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    You need a little weight further up the racquet to make it feel substantial. I would add 1g at 7" up the handle, 1g on the bottom side of the bridge on either side of the grommets, a heavier vibe damp if you use one, and 1g or 2g at 12:00. When changing your racquet's weight significantly, you'll probably need a re-string -tighter for a heavier racquet.
     
  39. zalive

    zalive Hall of Fame

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    Basically you cannot put anything at the hoop and not expect SW to increase. But with clever counterbalancing you won't feel it as anything bad but quite contrary, providing SW is still in the ballpark of your technique. And of course, it depends how much do you increase.

    It's hard to give universal answer, but sometimes plain tailweighting can bring a better control, though it depends on current balance. If it is not too head light then putting some mass near the butt cap or inside the handle can bring solidity.

    What's important to know: placing mass at the upper hoop and especially in 11-1 o'clock zone slows down a swing beyond SW increase, since it changes its pendulum physics as well. So it's important to compensate the pendulum physics by placing some mass either at the top of the handle or at the throat area. Though this is generally a field of fine tuning as well, since it's not necessarily that how racquets swung prior to customizing it was perfect anyway, therefore tuning makes a perfect sense.

    In case you feel that swing should still be made a bit faster (for example, you're aiming for the right side line but ball goes out because racquet didn't come through swing enough), but want to keep this current balance, you can try adding a gram of lead at the throat, nearer to the hoop. The exact swing compensation for 3 grams at 12 o'clock is around 7 grams at the top of the handle or at the throat, so there's a space for that, and besides, just as I mentioned above, fine tuning till perfection can go to one side or to the other.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017 at 6:48 AM
  40. Roland G

    Roland G Professional

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    Just wanted to give a shout out to @zalive and @Irvin for their spot-on lead tape recommendations
    Took my frames out on court today and had a blast beating a tricky opponent 2&3 whom I have lost to the last 3 times so that's a good start!
    Anyhow the frames felt great, just exactly what I was looking to achieve. I barely noticed the extra weight due to the balance being the same but the power level on groundies and serves was up a level - considerably. I had a brilliant time hitting spinny serves and heavy, heavy balls from the baseline so I'm really happy with the results of the customization so thanks again!
     
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  41. zalive

    zalive Hall of Fame

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    It's great to hear good news! :)
     
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  42. rectoralex

    rectoralex Rookie

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    Okay, let me narrow my question down. I have a Yonex Ezone Dr 100 and want to get closer to the control of a Pro Staff. How can I do that?
     
  43. zalive

    zalive Hall of Fame

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    Control is not just about weight, swing weight and balance, it's the design also. DR100 has a 100'' head with specific isometric shaped hoop (which is much wider in the upper hoop at typical spots where one hits the ball with groundstrokes). I've no playing experience with Yonex but from what I know about Yonexes, Ezone line is generally made to deliver some power and spin primarily, not a pin point precision. Whatever you do with customization, you can possibly make it more controlable (which is still subjective and relative to your playing style and skill), but you won't make it a Pro Staff like racquet if its design is no near Pro Staff racquets. Anyway at least the way I see it, it's all about the aspect of control you look for, but for me it's design that plays a big part of role here which can't quite be replaced by other things you can change. I think just a string pattern distribution can make a lot of difference, even if everything else is similar.

    Anyway, you can always add some grams near the butt cap and see if it feels better. And if swing feels bit laggy or too quick to you, something can be done with that. And you can make a change with the string bed as well. You need to have a picture what bothers you with this racquet, then you can apply a certain change that helps.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017 at 12:17 AM
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