The only discussion left now is whether or not the Serb is the greatest athlete in all sports at the moment!

nachiket nolefam said:
Individual sport

Dominating at 36
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Why does an individual sport require more athleticism than team sport? Talent pool in football dwarfs the one in tennis. Even if true, Karelin, Phelps and Bolt dominated their individual sports to an extent Nole can only dream about. Dominating at 36 means **** in determining who the best athlete is. Novak is neither the most dominant athlete in his respective sport (and this with a smaller talent pool than many other sports) nor the most versatile athlete in terms of physical prowess. That he can still dominate at 36 is because a) tennis is a rather technical sport as compared to some other sports b) he is still incredibly fit for his age which is a plus but not enough if we consider that at his prime he was nowhere near as dominating as the other athletes mentioned here c) his competition sucks.
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
Why does an individual sport require more athleticism than team sport? Talent pool in football dwarfs the one in tennis. Even if true, Karelin, Phelps and Bolt dominated their individual sports to an extent Nole can only dream about. Dominating at 36 means **** in determining who the best athlete is. Novak is neither the most dominant athlete in his respective sport (and this with a smaller talent pool than many other sports) nor the most versatile athlete in terms of physical prowess. That he can still dominate at 36 is because a) tennis is a rather technical sport as compared to some other sports b) he is still incredibly fit for his age which is a plus but not enough if we consider that at his prime he was nowhere near as dominating as the other athletes mentioned here c) his competition sucks.
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True and thats why I always consider Nadal the Greatest Athlete in Tennis alone.

His French Open record speaks for itself.

Won at 19 and then won at 36, on clay outmuscling guys 17 years apart is still a bigger feat of athleticism than anything which Novak has shown.
 
Razer said:
True and thats why I always consider Nadal the Greatest Athlete in Tennis alone.

His French Open record speaks for itself.

Won at 19 and then won at 36, on clay outmuscling guys 17 years apart is still a bigger feat of athleticism than anything which Novak has shown.
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Nadal is the better raw athlete that’s a no-brainer. Novak is a better tennis player if you will.
 
Nadal lost his speed around 29 years old and never regained that lost speed. On the other hand, Djokovic didn't slow down like that. To me, that's the main reason Nadal could no longer take a set from Djokovic on hardcourt because he could no longer depend on his speed and athleticism. Once Djokovic could match Nadal in athleticism, which happened in 2011, there was nothing between athletically so I don't get the Nadal is a better athlete argument. Djokovic has the better build for a sport like tennis than Nadal's body type which is why he's able to compete like this physically against much younger guys at the age he is now.
 
lol hyperbole much. These journos will type anything to get clicks and let fanboys rage on. At the moment there’s a case for him being greatest in tennis and I am sure by the time he is done it will be a consensus. But all sport!?? Bit far fetched and not fair to other greats across wide variety of sport.
 
Novak is a rare athlete - in any sport - who has broken career records while still being the best in (his) sport. This is objective in tennis (3 of 4 slams, YE#1) and individual sports, harder to assess in team sports. Now, if you want to chalk that up entirely to lack of strong competition, then add your retort to the daily chorus.

I wouldn't know how to compare his current dominance to current athletes in other sports.
 
pirhaksar said:
lol hyperbole much. These journos will type anything to get clicks and let fanboys rage on. At the moment there’s a case for him being greatest in tennis and I am sure by the time he is done it will be a consensus. But all sport!?? Bit far fetched and not fair to other greats across wide variety of sport.
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I think of any of these "greatest athletes in any sport" comparisons are hyperbole whether it's Djokovic or anyone else tbh. Too hard to compare and what makes you the greatest athlete ever in any sport over everyone else when you have all these incredible athletes over the years?
 
coming from a federer fan...he's up there. i don't know the in's and out's of soccer, but maybe messi fans would have something to say? otherwise...i mean, he holds almost every significant historical record in his sport. who else can say that currently?
 
Every day - here and elsewhere - I am worried about people's reading comprehension levels.
I agree with most that cross-sports comparisons are difficult, if not impossible, but I'm seeing all these retired athletes mentioned -- from Ali to Thorpe, and Brady and MJ, Bolt and Phelps.
The premise was for current athletes.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
I never said so

What he was is a Coward. He ran away from clay. Nole is far far better at 36 than Fed was at 36. Fed couldn't keep himself fit.
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Federer's backhand was a 1 handed and he knew he had no chance of beating Nandal.
Federer also was 5 years older to Nadal instead of being 1 year younger like Novak.

Don't call Roger a coward, he did what was right, had 5 years younger Nadal existed then Novak would have also looked like a coward in his 30s as he too would have tried to dodge. Easy to be bold when your clay rival is Casper Ruud or Tsistipas type donkeys.
 
NoleFam said:
Once Djokovic could match Nadal in athleticism, which happened in 2011, there was nothing between athletically so I don't get the Nadal is a better athlete argument.
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For you Novak is everything in Tennis, so I am not surprised why you dont get it.

01. Nadal first of all hits with more power than Novak or anyone from the back of the baseline.
02. Nadal's peak footspeed is superior than Novak's or Roger's.
03. Nadal's body is also fit for dominating other sports as well apart from Tennis.... Like football/rugby/MMA/Boxing/Wrestling etc etc .... Can't say the same for Novak/Roger.
04. Nadal's french open dominance stretched over 18 long years (2005-2022) which is the ultimate feat of athleticism since French Open is the most physical Slam of all the tournaments.

This is why Nadal is the Ultimate Athlete in Tennis .... the Greatest Athlete Of All Time (GAOAT) in Tennis. Novak with his super flexible body, special diet, weak 90s losers as rivals in mid 30s etc etc might have managed to prolong his career more by winning slams really late but it does not change the fact that Nadal is the peak Athlete in Tennis.... the Gold Standard.
 
Razer said:
For you Novak is everything in Tennis, so I am not surprised why you dont get it.

01. Nadal first of all hits with more power than Novak or anyone from the back of the baseline.
02. Nadal's peak footspeed is superior than Novak's or Roger's.
03. Nadal's body is also fit for dominating other sports as well apart from Tennis.... Like football/rugby/MMA/Boxing/Wrestling etc etc .... Can't say the same for Novak/Roger.
04. Nadal's french open dominance stretched over 18 long years (2005-2022) which is the ultimate feat of athleticism since French Open is the most physical Slam of all the tournaments.

This is why Nadal is the Ultimate Athlete in Tennis .... the Greatest Athlete Of All Time (GAOAT) in Tennis. Novak with his super flexible body, special diet, weak 90s losers as rivals in mid 30s etc etc might have managed to prolong his career more by winning slams really late but it does not change the fact that Nadal is the peak Athlete in Tennis.... the Gold Standard.
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Well it seems to me, Nadal is everything to you in tennis considering this post. Lol. Your #1 is incorrect and your #3 is irrelevant. Nadal hits with more rpm than anyone but not with more power. He's not even as aggressive as Alcaraz. When he plays Djokovic, who do you think hits more winners in the majority of their matches? If other players wanted to bulk up, they could but it's not necessary for tennis so that's why your #3 isn't relevant.

#2 is correct but it was only for a short while when he was young at around 18-20. His footspeed definitely wasn't faster than Djokovic's at ages 28-36.

#4 is the only one that has much relevance since I do think RG is the most grueling of the Slams physically. So if that's what you're basing this on then fair enough, and you're entitled to your opinion.
 
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The Guru said:
Again I just think basketball is very different because so much more goes in to it than tennis. Imagine if Mark Jackson was still the coach in GS for example. Sure Curry was a borderline top 5 player in 13/14 but he was nowhere near what he became under Kerr. Even still how many players have genuinely wrestled over the title of best in the world in the last ten years. LeBron, Curry, Giannis, Jokic, and 2020 AD in a weird bubble year. In tennis over the last ten years we have Fed, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, and maybe Carlos in a weird year. Not that different. Best in the world type talents are rare.

It's the easiest thing to see and value hence why off ball defense (probably the second most valuable skill behind playmaking) and off ball offense are perpetually underrated. Which also happen to be AD's biggest strengths as a genuinely all time anchor and maybe the greatest lob threat in league history. Crazy to see where people were ranking him going into the season. Such a slept on talent. He can't move like he did in 2020 anymore but he's still on the shortlist of the best in the world.
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Still though, Curry is one of the 10 best players in NBA history, Jokic is having a literal GOAT contending offensive peak, etc. the aggregate competition LBJ has faced from say 2012 to 2023 is way tougher than Djokovic has.

AD doesn’t have the jumper at all anymore, that’s the much more glaring issue with his game imo. You saw how last playoffs he was effectively neutralized to being a lob threat+putback specialist by Jokic after Game 1, because opposing teams have no respect for his jumper. It’s gotten to the point where you don’t even see him doubled in the post that often anymore.

That’s what made him a special possible best player in the world candidate in 2020. He shoots the lowest percentage of anyone in the entire NBA on mid range jumpers lol. Now that the threat isn’t there his offensive game is still great, still usable of course (I wish the Lakers ran more of him in the high post Sabonis/Embiid style) but it isn’t special the way it was. He’s no Prime Amare Stoudemire that’s for sure.

Now his defense is definitely incredible. We’re talking near peak Duncan levels last post season and in 2020. And that’s a very compelling argument. But right now his offensive impact, while still efficient and numerically good, is nowhere near the impact LeBron has offensively. I think the plus minus numbers of both guys are telling.
 
GoatNo1 said:
www.sportskeeda.com

"Is there a greater athlete in sports right now?" - Novak Djokovic's GOAT status in tennis beyond discussion after ATP Finals, says journalist

Tennis journalist Jon Wertheim is of the opinion that Novak Djokovic's status as the GOAT (Greatest Of All Time) in the sport is all but sealed now.
www.sportskeeda.com www.sportskeeda.com

Tennis journalist Jon Wertheim is of the opinion that Novak Djokovic's status as the GOAT (Greatest Of All Time) in the sport is all but sealed now. The American, in fact, believes that the only discussion left now is whether or not the Serb is the greatest athlete in all sports at the moment.
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Right.


How myopic can one get?









Or is it like stupidity?








Limitless.
 
Razer said:
03. Nadal's body is also fit for dominating other sports as well apart from Tennis.... Like football/rugby/MMA/Boxing/Wrestling etc etc .... Can't say the same for Novak/Roger.
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Not really. Nadal has some impressive musculature in his arms but frankly an average-sized frame, small shoulders, a small chest etc. Nothing about his body is really visually impressive aside from his biceps. Given his injury history it would be hard to see him staying healthy in a combat sport. Wresting in particular can wreck your MCL and LCL, and it’s the least “violent” of the sports mentioned.
 
Kralingen said:
Still though, Curry is one of the 10 best players in NBA history, Jokic is having a literal GOAT contending offensive peak, etc. the aggregate competition LBJ has faced from say 2012 to 2023 is way tougher than Djokovic has.

AD doesn’t have the jumper at all anymore, that’s the much more glaring issue with his game imo. You saw how last playoffs he was effectively neutralized to being a lob threat+putback specialist by Jokic after Game 1, because opposing teams have no respect for his jumper. It’s gotten to the point where you don’t even see him doubled in the post that often anymore.

That’s what made him a special possible best player in the world candidate in 2020. He shoots the lowest percentage of anyone in the entire NBA on mid range jumpers lol. Now that the threat isn’t there his offensive game is still great, still usable of course (I wish the Lakers ran more of him in the high post Sabonis/Embiid style) but it isn’t special the way it was. He’s no Prime Amare Stoudemire that’s for sure.

Now his defense is definitely incredible. We’re talking near peak Duncan levels last post season and in 2020. And that’s a very compelling argument. But right now his offensive impact, while still efficient and numerically good, is nowhere near the impact LeBron has offensively. I think the plus minus numbers of both guys are telling.
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Yeah I mean I just don't even know how to evaluate that claim. I don't think you're wrong or right I just think it's too different to be compared.

I think it's clear that if AD was ever a true number 1 on offense on a contending team he's certainly not anymore but when you're that dominant on defense you don't have to be to be a number 1 on a contender. AD basically single handedly wrecked the GS offense in WCSF his defensive impact was off the charts.

Agreed and I think in hindsight we can see his shooting in those playoffs as kinda flukey. Which is the reason I ultimately went with Bron as my Player of the Year for 2020. If I thought his shooting level was repeatable I'd prolly go with AD. Do you mean he's no Prime Amare in terms of shooting or in general because he's an obviously better player than Amare imo.

I think the difference in +- numbers are much more related to role and rotations. Correct me if I'm wrong but Bron had better +- numbers last year too and AD was clearly the better player. Not sure if I've had this discussion with you before but for a few reasons I think Bron is what I call an impact vampire meaning that he's often credited with some of the value his teammates provide in impact stats. If you want me to elaborate I can in a PM.
 
NoleFam said:
If other players wanted to bulk up, they could but it's not necessary for tennis so that's why your #3 isn't relevant.
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There is a difference in hitting the GYM to Bulk Up vs natural muscle mass and raw energy. Nadal has that inbuilt in him. His muscles give him his raw speed, it looked out of the planet when he arrived and even today 18-19 years later Alcaraz (who is touted to be a Nadal equivalent) is not that fast as peak Nadal. That to me is athleticism,

The other points I mentioned obviously also contribute to him being a superior athlete to any.

TheFifthSet said:
Not really. Nadal has some impressive musculature in his arms but frankly an average-sized frame, small shoulders, a small chest etc. Nothing about his body is really visually impressive aside from his biceps. Given his injury history it would be hard to see him staying healthy in a combat sport. Wresting in particular can wreck your MCL and LCL, and it’s the least “violent” of the sports mentioned.
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Wrestling will obviously need Nadal to bulk up more, but I am sure he can, his body would be more receptive to that compare to Roger or Novak's thin frames. Those guys if they bulk up they will become slow and will no longer be athletes, lol
 
Razer said:
There is a difference in hitting the GYM to Bulk Up vs natural muscle mass and raw energy.
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Not saying Nadal isn’t a great athlete, there’s just no evidence to suggest he’d be a stand-out in combat sports apart from being a generically great athlete whose athleticism was suited to a specific skill-set, and tons of roadblocks to indicate he’d be chronically injured to an even bigger extent than he was in tennis. I’ve logged close to a decade of grappling time and every single guy in my MMA gym with a similar amount of mat-time has a creaky knee, an active hernia (me), neck/back issues or any number of random niggles. Most of us aren’t professional athletes or competing on a national level either (where it’s even worse).

Razer said:
Wrestling will obviously need Nadal to bulk up more, but I am sure he can, his body would be more receptive to that compare to Roger or Novak's thin frames
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Federer has a much bigger and wider frame lol…larger shoulders, chest and solidly built legs/lower body. You’re too swayed by beach muscles here imo.
 
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The Guru said:
Yeah I mean I just don't even know how to evaluate that claim. I don't think you're wrong or right I just think it's too different to be compared.

I think it's clear that if AD was ever a true number 1 on offense on a contending team he's certainly not anymore but when you're that dominant on defense you don't have to be to be a number 1 on a contender. AD basically single handedly wrecked the GS offense in WCSF his defensive impact was off the charts.

Agreed and I think in hindsight we can see his shooting in those playoffs as kinda flukey. Which is the reason I ultimately went with Bron as my Player of the Year for 2020. If I thought his shooting level was repeatable I'd prolly go with AD. Do you mean he's no Prime Amare in terms of shooting or in general because he's an obviously better player than Amare imo.

I think the difference in +- numbers are much more related to role and rotations. Correct me if I'm wrong but Bron had better +- numbers last year too and AD was clearly the better player. Not sure if I've had this discussion with you before but for a few reasons I think Bron is what I call an impact vampire meaning that he's often credited with some of the value his teammates provide in impact stats. If you want me to elaborate I can in a PM.
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You two have good debate chemistry.
 
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TheFifthSet said:
Not saying Nadal isn’t a great athlete, there’s just no evidence to suggest he’d be a stand-out in combat sports apart from being a generically great athlete whose athleticism was suited to a specific skill-set, and tons of roadblocks to indicate he’d be chronically injured to an even bigger extent than he was in tennis. I’ve logged close to a decade of grappling time and every single guy in my MMA gym with a similar amount of mat-time has a creaky knee, an active hernia (me), neck/back issues or any number of random niggles. Most of us aren’t professional athletes or competing on a national level either (where it’s even worse).




Federer has a much bigger and wider frame lol…larger shoulders, chest and solidly built legs/lower body. You’re too swayed by beach muscles here imo.
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You own a MMA Gym ? Are you a Mix Martial Artist ? That sounds cool.

I agree Nadal is injury prone, but I feel in a street fight between the Big 3 we will see Nadal knock out both Federer and Djokovic. Probably Roger will be the 1st person to go down since he seems the softest & non violent. Djokovic is a bit more savage and would probably fight better but Bull will overpower him I think so.
 
Razer said:
You own a MMA Gym ? Are you a Mix Martial Artist ? That sounds cool.
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Oh, no, the lower mainland of BC is already oversaturated with MMA/jiu jitsu gyms. :X3: I just train in one. I briefly entertained the pipe dream of fighting professionally when I was a wide-eyed teenager a decade ago and still think about doing a bout at a local circuit to cross off the Bucket List, but it’s not too serious. As far as making a living fighting is concerned, beyond being a long shot it would’ve been a monumentally stupid financial decision to even try. That’s without considering the head trauma that doubtless would’ve accommodated it - always been more into the grappling arts for that very reason, something I coincidentally just discussed with @BorgTheGOAT earlier today via PM.

Now I just train to keep active, nothing more. Will have to get hernia surgery before I start going consistently again.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
No

Who is this idiot. Let's flog him/her if they say this.
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Flogging him wouldn’t make his argument any less valid; likewise declaring Nogold as the greatest whatever ad nauseam also does little to sway the judgement of the unblinkered.
Far from being even a tennis atg, any rationally minded individual can see that the guy can’t smash & volley very well & has an aesthetically ugly game which has benefitted exponentially from ‘the great slow down’ & homogenisation of surfaces. Additionally he has no CYGS, no OG & a losing BO5 H2H against a contemporary.
As for being the greatest athlete in any sport just look at the scrawny little whippet - he could certainly grace the cover of a Rock Climbing magazine, but that’s about it.
 
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TheFifthSet said:
Oh, no, the lower mainland of BC is already oversaturated with MMA/jiu jitsu gyms. :X3: I just train in one. I briefly entertained the pipe dream of fighting professionally when I was a wide-eyed teenager a decade ago and still think about doing a bout at a local circuit to cross off the Bucket List, but it’s not too serious. As far as making a living fighting is concerned, beyond being a long shot it would’ve been a monumentally stupid financial decision to even try. That’s without considering the head trauma that doubtless would’ve accommodated it - always been more into the grappling arts for that very reason, something I coincidentally just discussed with @BorgTheGOAT earlier today via PM.

Now I just train to keep active, nothing more. Will have to get hernia surgery before I start going consistently again.
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What country do you live in?
 
I saw Steffi Graf at the final of the in season tournament in Vegas. She looks young, and is sitting court side.
 
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