The Parnell Loop - Does anyone do this?

#1
I'm new to stringing, have been looking at instruction videos and techniques and found this:


Does anyone do this? What are the pros and cons?

I tried it and do like the popping the string under the main just before tying it off as a way to minimize tension loss as I'm struggling to get my knots tight against the grommet, but is there a significant benefit to also increasing the tension by 20% on the last 2 mains on each side as well?
 
#2
The Parnell knot is very common. The pros are that it is quite small, and if you pull the final knot up against the frame, you can cut the tail so that it is resting up against the inside of the frame, and looks very neat and tidy.

The Parnell knot is not a starting knot; don’t try to pull tension on this or it will go right through the grommet.

The con to this knot is that with some very “experienced” grommets, the knot might just pull through the grommet and warrant your work useless.


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#3
The Parnell knot is very common. The pros are that it is quite small, and if you pull the final knot up against the frame, you can cut the tail so that it is resting up against the inside of the frame, and looks very neat and tidy.

The Parnell knot is not a starting knot; don’t try to pull tension on this or it will go right through the grommet.

The con to this knot is that with some very “experienced” grommets, the knot might just pull through the grommet and warrant your work useless.


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Thanks, I am using the PC knot and it seems to be doing the trick. However, to clarify, I am referring to increasing the tension by 20% on the last 2 mains and stringing main 8 before main 7 on each side. Is this a helpful practice?
 
#4
It is not my practice to do this on the mains, but I do add more tension on the last crosses before tying off (or pull tension twice depending on which stringing machine I am using).

The rationale for doing this on the last crosses is due to the fact that reference tension is difficult with all the friction had on the last cross. The other way to do it is to pull tension twice on the last main instead of increasing tension on the one pull.

Both would achieve similar results.




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#5
Although I do not use this method, I can see why it is useful. The main object to skip 7 and go to 8, then come back around, is to ensure the knot is close to the “last” strung hole. This minimizes loss of tension. Increasing tension on the last one(s) also help minimize or eliminate tension loss. His extra step in wrapping the string before tie off basically locks it in place before final tie-off. Separately, you can hear that the “ping” was a little higher on 8, signifying it was a slightly higher tension, so he was stretching it to equalize tension across all the strings. For the pros, I can see this as necessary. For us common folk, probably something we won’t ever notice. Nice to see how to mitigate this problem in general though and to keep tension consistent across all mains. I may try this next time around.


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#6
Look up 'Yonex Loop.' This also does the last main before the 2nd to last main. It minimizes the string length between tie off and last main to tie off. It does not increase tension on last few mains. When you do that, you are doing the opposite of proportional stringing.
 
#7
Although I do not use this method, I can see why it is useful. The main object to skip 7 and go to 8, then come back around, is to ensure the knot is close to the “last” strung hole. This minimizes loss of tension. Increasing tension on the last one(s) also help minimize or eliminate tension loss. His extra step in wrapping the string before tie off basically locks it in place before final tie-off. Separately, you can hear that the “ping” was a little higher on 8, signifying it was a slightly higher tension, so he was stretching it to equalize tension across all the strings. For the pros, I can see this as necessary. For us common folk, probably something we won’t ever notice. Nice to see how to mitigate this problem in general though and to keep tension consistent across all mains. I may try this next time around.


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Great, thanks for explaining it. The biggest value for me as a newbie to stringing is the wrapping the string to lock it before the tie off so I don't need to stress about significant and/or inconsistent tension loss between string jobs.
 
#8
Look up 'Yonex Loop.' This also does the last main before the 2nd to last main. It minimizes the string length between tie off and last main to tie off. It does not increase tension on last few mains. When you do that, you are doing the opposite of proportional stringing.
Found a thread on it, of course this has already been discussed...

Sounds like you recommend the Yonex Loop over the Parnell (so skip 7 and go back to it but no tension change) - or do you just stick to standard stringing of the mains with no skipping at all?
 
#9
The Parnell Loop, Yonex Loop, and the Parnell knot are three totally different things. It just so happens R Parnell is using all three in that video but he could have used any 1 or 2 without using the other(s.)
 

Kevo

Hall of Fame
#10
I've experimented with some of these things and I found that for me it just doesn't matter enough to bother with. I just up my ref tension to the lowest I can use and still find good control and accept that my frame will have a small break in period where the strings settle. This doesn't take long and happens within 20-30 minutes of basic rallying or about 7-14 days of the frame sitting in the bag. I also don't notice much of a difference in actual shot results during the break in, it's mostly a feel thing.

I have played matches with freshly strung frames when a string breaks and other than a perceptible difference in feel it doesn't really affect play. I imagine that this is going to vary for people with different kinds of strings though. I play with fairly mute feeling polys usually so if you're playing with a powerful string it's probably going to be a bit more variable.

In stringing for others I have not found anyone to notice or worry about this either. Usually they bring in racquets that have lost a lot of tension anyway, so the freshly strung frame is quite an improvement even without the tricks. I rarely have people ask for higher tension too. Most people go for mid tension or mid + or - some number, 2-4 lbs usually, and they stay there. With new strings they might need two to three strings to find that number they like, but I don't think too many people are playing with tensions like those of us on the forums do at times.

I do prefer the Parnell knot to all others I've used, and I use it for everything and have never had any issues with it pulling through. Sometimes I leave the tail so it's not all the way cinched up when doing the first cross to help keep the knot from wanting to pull into a stretched grommet, and so far that has prevented any issues with potentially problem grommets that I've seen. I can imagine situations where thin gauges on really soft strings could be a problem so you might have to adjust strategy in some situations.
 
#11
I'm new to stringing, have been looking at instruction videos and techniques and found this:


Does anyone do this? What are the pros and cons?

I tried it and do like the popping the string under the main just before tying it off as a way to minimize tension loss as I'm struggling to get my knots tight against the grommet, but is there a significant benefit to also increasing the tension by 20% on the last 2 mains on each side as well?

I've never seen it called a Parnell loop. I refer to it as a Yonex loop because its most effective and useful on their rackets and from what I've been told the standard technique by their team on many of their rackets. You can use a similar technique to finish the crosses skipping the second to last, doing the last, and doing the second to last. It just cuts down on the distance to your tie off points. It works for many rackets that have an 8 skip. I use it on a few different rackets, namely: my own head extremes. It makes the tie offs for both mains and crosses closer. You can also use it on the Aero and Aero VS lines to move the tie offs closer. A 20% over pull on what amounts to 7 with it being your last isn't unusual or frowned upon. Some will tell you to over tension the outer main as well but I don't. It's all personal preference and how you want the tie offs to go. It also can help to shift the pattern on rackets. For instance in the Vcore dualG line. I string the 16x20 as a 16x19 because it's legal and the top cross is so tight it's useless. To achieve this as a one piece you have to use a loop on the outer mains or you wont be able to go back through and start on what should be the second cross in the shared holes.
 
#12
I've never seen it called a Parnell loop. I refer to it as a Yonex loop
Again you're talking about 2 different things. The yonex loop is where R Parnell runs in the 8th main on each side before running in the 7th mains (that's the yonex loop and nothing to do with the Parnell loop.) Then if you look at the video at around 2:20 he wraps or loops the tail under the the 6th main inside the grommet so some tension is held on the tail to prevent some tension loss from occurring. But because that string was never tensioned at reference tension The loss is there before he ever ties the knot. after doing the Yonex loop and the Parnell loop you can then tie any knot you want to tie but because of all the friction in the knot and the Parnell loop and the fact that you're not pulling the knot at reference tension there will be tension loss when the clamp is removed after tying the knot.
 
#13
Hack stringer here using a NEOS 1000 exclusively. Nearly stringing 100% 2-piece. Probably only string 3-4 per week for the last few years. The only rackets I string other than my own are for friends at cost of string. I use this method on tie-offs almost all the time, but I don't like the size of awl used in the video and nearly always use a double half hitch:
Tools I use:
 
#14
Does anyone do this? What are the pros and cons?
Well it looks as though no one is going to address your question so even though I do not use the Parnell loop I take a stab at it.

Pros
1 Richard Parnell uses it and he is an expert
2 If used properly it will prevent crossovers on the outside of the frame

Cons
1 Wrap the string wrong and you will probably have a crossover
2 It can't hold reference tension on the last main (waste of time)
3 It could position the knot on the wrong side of the anchor string and cause excessive tension loss
 
#15
Well it looks as though no one is going to address your question so even though I do not use the Parnell loop I take a stab at it.

Pros
1 Richard Parnell uses it and he is an expert
2 If used properly it will prevent crossovers on the outside of the frame

Cons
1 Wrap the string wrong and you will probably have a crossover
2 It can't hold reference tension on the last main (waste of time)
3 It could position the knot on the wrong side of the anchor string and cause excessive tension loss
Thanks Irvin.

For cons 2 & 3: Aren't those both addressed by the Yonex loop. i.e. by increasing the tension on the last main(s) and tying off closer to the last pulled main, you (a) reduce total tension loss and (b) compensate for the loss you get with the knot and therefore end up closer at the same tension as the rest of the frame than you would be otherwise? Perhaps the Parnell loop also helps reduce the total tension loss from the knot as well?

For con 3: I didn't even know there was a "wrong side of the anchor string" to position the knot! Will need to figure that out.
 
#17
For cons 2 & 3: Aren't those both addressed by the Yonex loop.
When you use a Yonex loop it will not do anything for a crossover. If the last main exists the string on the outside of the frame on top and your tie off string enter the tie off grommet below the 6th main you will probably have a crossover. If you wrap the Parnell loop wrong you will more than likely have a crossover.
i.e. by increasing the tension on the last main(s) and tying off closer to the last pulled main, you (a) reduce total tension loss
The higher the tension the greater the loss
(b) compensate for the loss you get with the knot and therefore end up closer at the same tension as the rest of the frame than you would be otherwise?
If you have loss of tension in the knot you are tying a bad knot. Most of the drawback comes from the lower tension in the string between the clamp and the knot if the knot is tied right and you use a proper knot
For con 3: I didn't even know there was a "wrong side of the anchor string" to position the knot! Will need to figure that out
Say you are tying off on grommet hole 6T. Normally if you tie off on the top of the anchor string the knot will be on the top inside of the anchor string. If you loop it around and more toward the inside of the frame It will not be in that position and the tension on the last main may have even more tension loss.

EDIT: If the string you're tying off is twisted around and under the anchor string, don't you think it will untwist and be pulled back when the clamp is released?
 
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#18
I am referring to increasing the tension by 20% on the last 2 mains and stringing main 8 before main 7 on each side. Is this a helpful practice?
Don’t know how I missed this question. R Parnell increases tension by 4 kg on the last 2 mains on each side not 20%. I believe @uk_skippy increases tension by 4 kg on the last mainly only on each side. Skipping the 7th main (on a 16 main racket) before string the outside main is very common practice. This is the Yonex loop and could put the clamp closer to the tie off string (knot) and increases tension on the outer mains whether you increase tension or not.
 
#19
On a 16 main racquet using the Yonex Loop, one moves from the installed (tensioned) 6th main to threading the 8th and then the 7th and only then tensioning the 7th main, which applies tension on both the 7th and the 8th main. On a Yonex Loop, there is NO requirement that the tension on this double pull be higher than reference tension. EDIT: See the demonstration from the official Yonex stringing team at the 6:20 mark:

On a 16 main racquet using the Parnell Loop, one moves from the installed (tensioned) 6th main to threading and tensioning the 8th, and only then installing the 7th main. In the Parnell Loop, the two outer mains are tensioned individually AND at higher tension. EDIT: Read the note to the video from RP himself.

RP also mentions in a video comment reply (to Bradley Cranford 10 months ago) that he does not have a name for the locking procedure.

@Irvin - The approach to "locking" the last strung main in the tie-off hole is NOT the Parnell Loop as implied in your post #12 above..
 
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#20
The approach to "locking" the last strung main in the tie-off hole is NOT the Parnell Loop as implied in your post #12 above..
Then what is the Parnell loop? Read the comments and responses associated with that video on youtube, R Parnell tension bothe the 7th and 8th main at +4 kg and refers to that locking the string under the 7th main.
 
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#25
This string might be of help. The string you’ve posted in might appear it is about knots, but it’s not! And the tension is building .

Knots: a poster for beginners
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=21313&share_tid=600645&url=https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/Knots:-a-poster-for-beginners.600645/&share_type=t
Sorry, this is what happens when one doesn't actually watches the video. I've seen a very similar looking video for the knot, and I assumed wrongly.
 
#26
@jwocky as R Parnell said, he adds extra tension [4 kg] to the two outside mains which are tensioned individually as opposed to a double pull, but the interesting part, R Parnell says, is locking the tie off string between the anchor string and the frame.
 
#27
Does anyone do this? What are the pros and cons?
Here is a thread for a Yonex Loop (https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/some-questions-about-the-yonex-loop.550380/) and from a post by @uk_skippy he says other stringers on the tennis tour use it. If that thread describes a Yonex Loop (as used stringing tennis rackets only) what’s the difference between the Yonex Loop and the Parnell Loop?

EDIT: I ask because I’m interested in identifying your question. I use a Yonex Loop when appriprotriate and increase tension on the last outside main but not the last two outside mains. I do not Loop the tie off string around the anchor string.
 

Dags

Professional
#28
Perhaps a spot of clarification from YouTube for those watching the video embedded in the TT post.

Video description (as written by Richard Parnell, 7 Jun 2016):
This method is almost the same as the Yonex Loop for badminton rackets except that it doesn't tension the two outside mains together (double pull) but rather adds extra tension on the two outside mains that are tensioned individually to make sure that the outside main is tight and the length of string to get to the tie off hole is minimized


Some questions/answers from the comments (all answers by Richard Parnell):

Q: Richard what are you calling the string lock procedure?
A: I haven't really thought of a name for it ;-)

Q: I understand this is an open pattern racket. In case of a dense pattern racket, should I go for extra 20 percent for the 8th and 9th, instead of the 7th and 8th?
A: Exactly, the two outer mains

Q: I guess this technique depends on where the tie off hole is, but I guess you could do this when tying off the last cross too? Especially if the tie off hole for the crosses is nearer the penultimate cross than the last cross. (Would also need to tension the penultimate cross a couple times too).
A: This technique works for racquets that have the string on one side of the grommet and not "across" the grommet. Former P.Drive worked perfectly and lots of Yonex. I don't bother with this technique for the tie off on the crosses

Q: Can that locking technique be used on all mains tie off or only when we utilize the yonex loop? And what's the difference using the locking technique vs just tying off with parnell knot and pulling up all the slack?
A: This technique can only be used when the main you are going to use to block the string is hard against the grommet and not across it. If the main goes across the grommet you can't "pop" the tie off string between it and the grommet. The advantage of this is that you can pull on that string really hard before making it "pop" under the main and making sure that the tie off string is as close to reference tension as possible.

Q: How much extra tension do you add for the 8th main and the 7th main?
A: 20% or about 4 kgs (8.8lbs)
 
#29
While you’re clarifying, R Parnell uses 20% because he uses a Baiardo which has percentages for the knot and not specific tension like Babolat machines. Could be a big difference between 20% and 4 kg depending on reference tension. Also RP did not have a name for it unless you want to look at the title of the video which could have been edited after he responded saying he did not have a name. RP could have modified the title after he realized there was no name you can’t tell. Sort of like editing your post after you realize you left something out (then you can go back and tell everyone you already covered that.) Except in a forum there’s a record of the latest edit. LMAO
 
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Dags

Professional
#30
Also RP did not have a name for it unless you want to look at the title of the video which could have been edited after he responded saying he did not have a name. RP could have modified the title after he realized there was no name you can’t tell.
The comment 'I haven't really thought of a name for it' is in response to a question about the string lock. The 'Parnell Loop' he is demonstrating in this video is explained in the description, and makes no reference to the string lock. Why there is a suggestion that he may have later modified the title of the video, I have no idea.

Sort of like editing your post after you realize you left something out (then you can go back and tell everyone you already covered that.) Except in a forum there’s a record of the latest edit. LMAO
I particularly like that you found need to edit this post. Glad you haven't lost your sense of humour. ;-)
 
#31
The comment 'I haven't really thought of a name for it' is in response to a question about the string lock. The 'Parnell Loop' he is demonstrating in this video is explained in the description, and makes no reference to the string lock
If the R Parnell explained everything in the description for a five minutes video, why does it take him 40% of the video to explain how he does a Yonex Loop and the remaining 60% of the time explaining the interesting part?
I particularly like that you found need to edit this post. Glad you haven't lost your sense of humour. ;-)
The devil made me do it.

EDIT: It’s a shame though that you can’t see what is edited or how many times the post was edited even when the poster tries to identify what he wants you to believe what was edited.

EDIT: Notice my bold edit? That damn devil is at it again.
 
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Dags

Professional
#32
If the R Parnell explained everything in the description for a five minutes video, why does it take him 40% of the video to explain how he does a Yonex Loop and the remaining 60% of the time explaining the interesting part?
We should probably consider it bonus material. It just happens that the intended focus of the video (as per the title and description) is quite straightforward, and hence quick to demonstrate. That he then goes on to include the string lock may distract from that, as it requires greater explanation. Hey, the guy’s a professional stringer, not a film director.
 
#33
On a 16 main racquet using the Yonex Loop, one moves from the installed (tensioned) 6th main to threading the 8th and then the 7th and only then tensioning the 7th main, which applies tension on both the 7th and the 8th main. On a Yonex Loop, there is NO requirement that the tension on this double pull be higher than reference tension. EDIT: See the demonstration from the official Yonex stringing team at the 6:20 mark:

On a 16 main racquet using the Parnell Loop, one moves from the installed (tensioned) 6th main to threading and tensioning the 8th, and only then installing the 7th main. In the Parnell Loop, the two outer mains are tensioned individually AND at higher tension. EDIT: Read the note to the video from RP himself.

RP also mentions in a video comment reply (to Bradley Cranford 10 months ago) that he does not have a name for the locking procedure.

@Irvin - The approach to "locking" the last strung main in the tie-off hole is NOT the Parnell Loop as implied in your post #12 above..
So the difference in the Parnell loop and Yonex loop is tensioning the outer main not only the last one?
 
#35
So the difference in the Parnell loop and Yonex loop is tensioning the outer main not only the last one?
...If you're concerned about outer mains tension, you could use what is being called the Yonex loop. This where you'd string the mains 6th main>8th main>7th main; and string the 7th & 8th main at normal tension + knot tension (or increase by >5lbs if you dont use a knot tension).

Regards

Paul
That post by uk_skippy was in 2015 a year before RP made his 2016 Parnell Loop video. Yes the original Yonex Loop was created for fragile badminton frames to relieve pressure on the outer strings by double pulling the outer mains. That badminton version of the Yonex Loop was modified for tennis stringing as uk_skippy points out.

EDIT: So I'll ask @jwocky again, if the Yonex Loop (as used in tennis stringing according to uk_skippy) is tensioning the outer 2 mains on each side individually and adding knot tension what is the Parnell Loop?
 
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#36
Was avoiding this (but thansk @Irvin)

The original Yonex Loop was created for fragile badminton frames to relieve pressure on the outer strings by double pulling the outer mains. That method is only for badminton racquets.

The Yonex Loop when used for tennis should be that both the outer/last main and the penultimate/2nd from outer main are both tensions under the same premise that all strings are tensioned individually as per the norm. The badminton method should not be directly copied for tennis whereby the outer 2 mains are pulled together.

The Parnell method simply takes the Yonex (tennis) Loop and adds the additional step of wrapping the string over/under the anchor string to help remove potential tension loss when tying off.

The basis for using Yonex (tennis) Loop is to reduce the distance from the last main you tension to where you tie off. By double pulling those outer 2 mains you will not be applying the right tension on either of them, and so there will be less tension applied when tying off; leading to more tension loss.

Knot tension is applied to the outer/last main due to the increase of distance it travels along the frame.

Hope this helps

Regards

Paul
 
#37
While we wait for @Richard Parnell to set the record straight himself - I will just go by what he wrote in the video description about what is the Parnell Loop AND his comment about not having a name for the locking procedure. Perhaps he will take some time out and respond to finally end this.

@Irvin - I am sure you can direct your stream farther and for much longer than anyone on these boards. Congratulations!
 
#38
The Parnell method simply takes the Yonex (tennis) Loop and adds the additional step of wrapping the string over/under the anchor string to help remove potential tension loss when tying off.
Thanks for the clarification but I have one comment. If the tie off string is wrapped over the anchor string it could cause overlaps on the outside of the frame. The next to last main tail should go over the string coming out of the grommet and then always under and around the anchor string. This helps to trap the string between the anchor string and the frame and helps to prevent cross overs.
 
#39
While we wait for @Richard Parnell to set the record straight himself - I will just go by what he wrote in the video description about what is the Parnell Loop AND his comment about not having a name for the locking procedure. Perhaps he will take some time out and respond to finally end this.

@Irvin - I am sure you can direct your stream farther and for much longer than anyone on these boards. Congratulations!
So you’re saying @Richard Parnell plagerized the Yonex (tennis) Loop and called it his own?
 
#40
Thanks for the clarification but I have one comment. If the tie off string is wrapped over the anchor string it could cause overlaps on the outside of the frame. The next to last main tail should go over the string coming out of the grommet and then always under and around the anchor string. This helps to trap the string between the anchor string and the frame and helps to prevent cross overs.
If done correctly there shouldnt be any over-laps. It can depend on which way around the anchor string you wrap the last main.
 
#42
@kkm
Thank you.
I knew I had seen someone other than RP do the wrap before but could not remember.
Parnell gives the extra tension to the last pair of mains on each side.
Yonex-Tennis ups the tension on just the last main as I understood it.
 
#43
The Yonex loop is used in Badminton and double pulls both outside mains (double pulling in badminton is allowed in certain places). The difference between the Parnell Loop and the Yonex loop is that I pull both strings one by one and I add extra tension on both outside mains and then pass the extra tension on the outside main, 8th, to the penultimate 7th main and try and get a more even tension in this area. This can be liked or disliked by stringers as it is, as mentioned, the opposite of proportional stringing, however, tour players like to feel that the outside strings are tight.

The loop was not used in tournament stringing until I started using it at Wimbledon about 12 years ago. Since then there has been quite a few stringers who have adopted this method. The "locking" of the string inside the grommet was taught by JJ Poupon for years in conjunction with his floating knot. I didn't like his method with knot and adapted it slightly, that is why I have never given this procedure any name.

All the best
 
#45
can anyone explain the locking. I have watched that vid like crazy and cant seem to duplicate it. It would be nice because occasionally I have observed some kevlar knots slip and superglue is a pain.
 
#46
can anyone explain the locking. I have watched that vid like crazy and cant seem to duplicate it. It would be nice because occasionally I have observed some kevlar knots slip and superglue is a pain.
To begin with the anchor must go against one side of the tie off gromm and against the side of the grommet. The string you're tying off must go in the tie off grommet and run parallel to the anchor string. The string you're tying off must then go under the anchor string and be pulled between the anchor string and the grommet. When you're finished the anchor string is still going through the grommet and the string you're tying off is trapped behind the anchor string and the grommet.
 
#47
To begin with the anchor must go against one side of the tie off gromm and against the side of the grommet. The string you're tying off must go in the tie off grommet and run parallel to the anchor string. The string you're tying off must then go under the anchor string and be pulled between the anchor string and the grommet. When you're finished the anchor string is still going through the grommet and the string you're tying off is trapped behind the anchor string and the grommet.
Appreciate the attempt but I cant visualize what you are saying. I will re read a few times but its a circle how is the string NOT between the anchor and the grommet?
 
#48
To begin with the anchor must go against one side of the tie off gromm and against the side of the grommet. The string you're tying off must go in the tie off grommet and run parallel to the anchor string. The string you're tying off must then go under the anchor string and be pulled between the anchor string and the grommet. When you're finished the anchor string is still going through the grommet and the string you're tying off is trapped behind the anchor string and the grommet.
double
 
#49
Appreciate the attempt but I cant visualize what you are saying. I will re read a few times but its a circle how is the string NOT between the anchor and the grommet?
Not sure what you're saying about a circle. Consider the anchor string going straight through the grommet. Now the string you're tying off come into the grommet and would normally run parallel with it and be tied off. In Richard Parnell's video he says it is important for the string you're tying off to be on top but that is not really the case. But this this explanation we will assume it is on top. You take the (parallel) string you're tying off and loop it under the anchor string and pull. This will cause the tie off string to slide behind the anchor string in the grommet but because it is on top of the string outside the frame it will remain on top. The section of string inside the frame is now below the anchor string. The 2 strings are no longer parallel and the tie off string is trapped behind the anchor string inside the grommet.
 
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