The perception of Effort!

J

jg153040

G.O.A.T.
I would like to talk about this to see what people think. Just because people make it look hard or easy, it doesn't have to be that way.

Let's debunk Federer and Nadal myth. Like Nadal is some warrior dying on the court and Federer is on a picnic.

Is that true, or could it just be the perception of effort? Think about it, I can lift 1 pound and make crazy faces and flex my muscles and grunt and make it look like it has 200 pounds. I did that actually and a lot of people do that in the gym with light weights.

Or I can lift 150 pounds and have a normal face and even smile and don't make a sound and it looks like it's 20 pounds. I have done that and a lot of people do that in the gym as well.

So, even Federer said that he gives it all and it's very hard for him and puts a lot of effort in is, he just doesn't grunt and make faces, so it looks easier.

I could argue that Federer puts even more effort than some grunters, since they spent some extra energy on grunting and making angry faces and fist pumping, so they have less energy for tennis and Federer has even more energy he can put into tennis, so he might leave even more on court.

Some people can break their leg or arm and don't even make a sound. Some people can handle pain a lot better, some people even break their arm and don't even know it. They think it's just a normal injury.

So, could it be that Federer just handles physical pain better?

Any thoughts on that?

This illustrates my point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZXaASU75_E
 
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It's not smoke and mirrors in the scenario of Fedal, though I get what you're saying. How often does even peak Nadal have an easy match? His style really makes him have to put in more work to win. It's not a good or bad thing, it just is what it is. At his most confident, he does seem to make it look easier though. He didn't look much more labored than Fed in the Wimby 07/08 finals or against Novak at the 2010/2013 US Opens.
 
MichaelNadal said:
It's not smoke and mirrors in the scenario of Fedal, though I get what you're saying. How often does even peak Nadal have an easy match? His style really makes him have to put in more work to win. It's not a good or bad thing, it just is what it is. At his most confident, he does seem to make it look easier though. He didn't look much more labored than Fed in the Wimby 07/08 finals or against Novak at the 2010/2013 US Opens.
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Yeah, but just because Nadal makes it look harder, it doesn't necessary mean it is harder.

Not just Nadal, I'm talking about everyone here. I just gave Fedal example because they are most known here and very extreme examples.
 
It takes effort to show extra effort. Effort above and beyound normal effort is still effort. So Nadal 's facial grimaces must be given weight in any effort goat discussions.
 
Mr.Lob said:
It takes effort to show extra effort. Effort above and beyound normal effort is still effort. So Nadal 's facial grimaces must be given weight in any effort goat discussions.
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Interesting point. So, are you saying that pealing an orange can be harder in such cases than lifting 50 pounds?
 
Nadal should put more effort in to showing less effort.Would that be more or less effort for him than showing more effort?
 
LETitBE said:
Nadal should put more effort in to showing less effort.Would that be more or less effort for him than showing more effort?
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Damn, you got it. That was my point. And you summed it up even better than me.

My whole premise was that it could take more effort making it look easy or at least the same amount.
 
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MichaelNadal said:
I wish Fed and Nadal would watch their 3 best matches on a couch together and commentate on them. Sign me up for that Bluray!
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I would rather hang out with you than to watch them (even if on blue ray).

What have they done for me? They don't even know I exist. You did a lot more for me than those guys.
 
jg153040 said:
I would rather hang out with you than to watch them (even if on blue ray).

What have they done for me? They don't even know I exist. You did a lot more for me than those guys.
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Aww JG, if I were white, I'd be blushing :p
I think it's silly that tennis doesn't market something as big as Fedal on DVD. I think it would be a pretty good idea, it wouldn't be cost effective on bluray maybe but surely it would make a lot more money than a lot of the crap dvd's that get released these days. Just open, honest and funny commentary about moments before, during and after the matches. Even if it was just for Wimby 07 and 08.
 
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MichaelNadal said:
Aww JG, if I were white, I'd be blushing :p
I think it's silly that tennis doesn't market something as big as Fedal on DVD. I think it would be a pretty good idea, it wouldn't be cost effective on bluray maybe but surely it would make a lot more money than a lot of the crap dvd's that get released these days. Just open, honest and funny commentary about moments before, during and after the matches. Even if it was just for Wimby 07 and 08.
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You aren't white? I always though you were white :).

I live in Slovenia, we don't care about that here. We are progressive thinking nation, so we don't know those concepts of not being equal. Also you don't see anyone here with different skin color, it's rare. A lot of people here go to church, but nobody believes in the bible or god. Such things aren't big issues here. We laugh at people who care about such stuff lol. It's not even an issue here. Same with sports, we love sports, but there aren't fanatics here :).

But, yeah I see what you mean. I would watch them if they would talk about anything. I would prefer if they talked about something else rather than tennis. We hear them talk about tennis all the time.
 
jg153040 said:
You aren't white? I always though you were white :).

I live in Slovenia, we don't care about that here. We are progressive thinking nation, so we don't know those concepts of not being equal. Also you don't see anyone here with different skin color, it's rare. A lot of people here go to church, but nobody believes in the bible or god. Such things aren't big issues here. We laugh at people who care about such stuff lol. It's not even an issue here. Same with sports, we love sports, but there aren't fanatics here :).

But, yeah I see what you mean. I would watch them if they would talk about anything. I would prefer if they talked about something else rather than tennis. We hear them talk about tennis all the time.
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I'm black, but if you only heard my voice you probably wouldn't think so :lol:
Europe seems to be a lot more free thinking about things like race indeed. What's going on in America right now is shameful.

I'd probably be bored to tears by both if they talked about something other than tennis. Give me Berdych, Stan, Monfils or someone similar for that :)
 
MichaelNadal said:
I'm black, but if you only heard my voice you probably wouldn't think so :lol:
Europe seems to be a lot more free thinking about things like race indeed. What's going on in America right now is shameful.

I'd probably be bored to tears by both if they talked about something other than tennis. Give me Berdych, Stan, Monfils or someone similar for that :)
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I think there is a lot more to Fedal than just tennis. I bet they would have interesting things to say about other topics too. Rich people who travel around the world and are all the time in higher social circles have a lot of crazy stories, so they can't be boring by default.
 
jg153040 said:
I think there is a lot more to Fedal than just tennis. I bet they would have interesting things to say about other topics too. Rich people who travel around the world and are all the time in higher social circles have a lot of crazy stories, so they can't be boring by default.
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True, maybe press conference journos just don't bring out the best in these guys at all. In the NBA, NFL, and even Soccer you get to see the real personality of these guys. Fedal though obviously cool people, just seem so wooden in comparison. I miss Roddick's pressers for that reason. I think the Charlie Rose interview with Nadal (after the 2013 USO) is my favorite he's done, simply because he was so good at getting Rafa to actually talk and explain things instead of giving his standard answers.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/531807
 
ba99221f999033d544a8f816418c57aa.jpg
 
jg153040 said:
I think there is a lot more to Fedal than just tennis. I bet they would have interesting things to say about other topics too. Rich people who travel around the world and are all the time in higher social circles have a lot of crazy stories, so they can't be boring by default.
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Only if they refuse to talk about their life and are very antisocial, then all that life experience cannot pass to the others...
 
Rafa's 'effort' - just perception; he's in fact taking it easy; very easy, in fact
His sweating profusely - perception. He has to secretly apply chapstick during the MTO's to prevent his skin from cracking from excessive dryness
His MTO's - perception, see above
His ruined knees - perception, they're actually just weak because they don't get exercised enough
His blisters - perception, he just has sensitive skin
His bad back - perception, it's just from a bad sitting posture
His taking a minute between points to 'recover' - perception, he's doing calisthenics to keep his muscles from atrophying from all that inactivity
His need to take time off every year - perception, he is just hitting the gym so he dosn't gain weight due to not enough effort those easy tennis matches

Roger still being No. 2 at 34 and winning tournaments - perception, the guy has been on death-watch since he was 21 due to his excessively ruinous and damaging playing style and he's just hangin' by a thin thread.

So yes, you have a point.
 
Kalin said:
Rafa's 'effort' - just perception; he's in fact taking it easy; very easy, in fact
His sweating profusely - perception. He has to secretly apply chapstick during the MTO's to prevent his skin from cracking from excessive dryness
His MTO's - perception, see above
His ruined knees - perception, they're actually just weak because they don't get exercised enough
His blisters - perception, he just has sensitive skin
His bad back - perception, it's just from a bad sitting posture
His taking a minute between points to 'recover' - perception, he's doing calisthenics to keep his muscles from atrophying from all that inactivity
His need to take time off every year - perception, he is just hitting the gym so he dosn't gain weight due to not enough effort those easy tennis matches

Roger still being No. 2 at 34 and winning tournaments - perception, the guy has been on death-watch since he was 21 due to his excessively ruinous and damaging playing style and he's just hangin' by a thin thread.

So yes, you have a point.
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Now don't exaggerate. I didn't claim Fed tries more. I only argued it's theoretically possible. This effort perception is real with all people. Some have antics that made it look harder or easier than it actually is.

Ok, Nadal tries harder, but I still claim it's not as hard as he makes it look. Watch his videos in slow motion without the sound and watching his face, he moves quite gracefully. He is very efficient. Maybe not as Federer, but still pretty damn amazing. He glides on court. But, that was sort of my point, his antics made it look like he is dying there, but it's not the case. Rafa is the best on the most physical surface. You don't do that if you have poor technique.

Federer just doesn't show he tries, that's all. He still tries hard. He gets tired, he has very poor record when things go into the 5th set. He just doesn't grunt and make angry faces, that's all. Just look how he starts missing after long points or when match gets physical. That is a big clue, that he is so tired, just tries to hide it. He is fair, he just doesn't take time off after a long point. He rather serves and misses.

Watch all big 3 in slow motion with sound off, without watching their faces and you will see what I'm talking about.
 
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Federer trains in the sweltering Dubai heat. Nadal talks about how "he just saw doctor for knee, no?" Nadal quits when he gets way behind. Federer fights to the death.
 
InjuredNo? said:
Federer trains in the sweltering Dubai heat. Nadal talks about how "he just saw doctor for knee, no?" Nadal quits when he gets way behind. Federer fights to the death.
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Well, I wouldn't use those exact words, but Federer has most comebacks from two sets down. His record there is incredible.

So, yeah, this is part of point, that Federer is underrated as a warrior.
 
jg153040 said:
Now don't exaggerate. I didn't claim Fed tries more. I only argued it's theoretically possible. This effort perception is real with all people. Some have antics that made it look harder or easier than it actually is...
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Yes, admittedly I did exaggerate a bit; I do see your point. Fed and Rafa are at the two ends of the spectrum where Fed would never show strain or tiredness while Rafa always does. But there is no doubt that Rafa does indeed strains itself a lot more; his playing style is just very taxing.

Andy Murray is of course an example of the opposite- a player whose perceived level of exertion is in line with the score. When he wins, he looks like he's gliding; when he starts losing he looks like he's dying out there :)
 
Kalin said:
Yes, admittedly I did exaggerate a bit; I do see your point. Fed and Rafa are at the two ends of the spectrum where Fed would never show strain or tiredness while Rafa always does. But there is no doubt that Rafa does indeed strains itself a lot more; his playing style is just very taxing.

Andy Murray is of course an example of the opposite- a player whose perceived level of exertion is in line with the score. When he wins, he looks like he's gliding; when he starts losing he looks like he's dying out there :)
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Haha, Murray is the most honest player. Fed and Rafa are fakes, they just want to hide their effort :).

Well, even if it was a bit too much, I still loved your sarcasm from previous post. It made me laugh, so it was very good.
 
TheNatural said:
Pity he surrendered the wtf vs Shokavish last year and instead opted for the easier Davis cup match.
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Davis Cup match was the harder match. Because he had 0 Davis Cup titles, he already has 6 WTF titles. Titles you don't have are the hardest to win.

Then much more pressure at Davis Cup, when you haven't won it and when if you lose, you disappoint entire country.

Actually, what Fed did was brave. The easier thing would just be to not play Davis Cup and play WTF final. He had no pressure in WTF final, since he won 6 and has nothing to prove there and he can't fail his country there.
 
TheNatural said:
Pity he surrendered the wtf vs Shokavish last year and instead opted for the easier Davis cup match.
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A walk-over is nothing to be ashamed about since the players didn't commit to play due to injury. However, once you decided to step on the court, that means you are fit/healthy enough to play, and should FINNISH the match with dignity.
 
There's really no way to quantify it or discuss it rationally. There's not enough information beyond what an athlete might verbally confess. In science they say the easiest person to fool is yourself, so don't bother trusting the eye test. Statistics don't say anything useful.

Maybe a guy got blown off the court, double-bagelled. But was he physically unable to perform? Injured? Nowhere near good enough to compete at his opponent's level? So I don't like to mention effort at all because it would lead to an unresolvable argument.
 
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