The pre-USO swing has lost all of its prestige

K

Kralingen

Bionic Poster
I’m embarrassed to be an American tennis fan.

Watching Cincy right now and for the SECOND time today, play is interrupted due to power issues, this time with the LED screens. After a gargantuan amount of money was spent on upgrades last summer. The players and crowds look over it, and the event is sparsely attended with a dead atmosphere so far.

And yet, a massive improvement from Canada, a tournament which was barely a 500 level, let alone a Masters. The finals were mid week, Thursday, and played while Cincy was already ongoing. Just embarrassing. Their tournament director is openly begging Alcaraz and Sinner to play, given that 3 of the past 4 winners have been Shelton, Popyrin, and Carreno Busta.

Canada has always suffered from Wimbledon hangover, but the needless shortening of the calendar between Wimby and Canada has hurt it severely. The new two week format for Canada/Cincy with a midweek final has had obviously negative results and was completely unnecessary.

There’s just no prestige and energy to pre-USO anymore. Almost no momentum carries over to the tournament and everyone skips or doesn’t go hard. These tournaments used to mean something, the Canada-Cincy double used to be a real goal, now players basically try not to get hurt. The heat seems to affect players more than ever and quality is down. The entire experience is just so low-rent despite the high ticket prices, indicative of a rot within both tennis and the country itself. The funniest part is neither are even the worst Masters, which would be Miami. Sad.
 
MeatTornado said:
I never viewed Canada or Cincinnati as particularly prestigious in the first place. I enjoy them, but they were always USO warm-ups to me.
Click to expand...
Do you view Monte Carlo, Madrid, and Rome the same way? That they're warm-ups to RG and enjoyable, but not prestigious?
 
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Lozo1016 said:
Do you view the Monte Carlo, Madrid, and Rome the same way? That they're warm-ups to RG and enjoyable, but not prestigious?
Click to expand...
A little bit, yeah.

Indian Wells & Miami were always the special ones that felt like their own big event, not anywhere near any slam. The other ones are still big deals in their own right, but I don't think Cincinnati means any more or less than it used to. It's a USO warm-up, the last chance for the big names to get some HC practice in before New York.
 
The players are independent contractors; there is no players union. Unlike team sports, there is no official season.
The organizers are free to set their prize money and two-week tournament lengths in order to maximize tournament revenue.
The players have the flexibility to play as much or as little as they wish. This is the beauty of free-market capitalism.

Who wants to spend two weeks in Montreal before the USO? With French Canadian fans loudly cheering Osaka's unforced errors and double faults.
:(

Who wants to spend two weeks in Toronto before the USO?
:(
 
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Kralingen said:
I’m embarrassed to be an American tennis fan.

Watching Cincy right now and for the SECOND time today, play is interrupted due to power issues, this time with the LED screens. After a gargantuan amount of money was spent on upgrades last summer. The players and crowds look over it, and the event is sparsely attended with a dead atmosphere so far.

And yet, a massive improvement from Canada, a tournament which was barely a 500 level, let alone a Masters. The finals were mid week, Thursday, and played while Cincy was already ongoing. Just embarrassing. Their tournament director is openly begging Alcaraz and Sinner to play, given that 3 of the past 4 winners have been Shelton, Popyrin, and Carreno Busta.

Canada has always suffered from Wimbledon hangover, but the needless shortening of the calendar between Wimby and Canada has hurt it severely. The new two week format for Canada/Cincy with a midweek final has had obviously negative results and was completely unnecessary.

There’s just no prestige and energy to pre-USO anymore. Almost no momentum carries over to the tournament and everyone skips or doesn’t go hard. These tournaments used to mean something, the Canada-Cincy double used to be a real goal, now players basically try not to get hurt. The heat seems to affect players more than ever and quality is down. The entire experience is just so low-rent despite the high ticket prices, indicative of a rot within both tennis and the country itself. The funniest part is neither are even the worst Masters, which would be Miami. Sad.
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The wind in Cincinnati is crazy
 
Dropshot777 said:
I’d put it there right behind Indian Wells.
Click to expand...

Maybe I am biased bc I’ve been playing on red clay all my life but there is something extra special about natural surfaces.

But if I really think about it, IMO the real “5th Slam” is actually a hardcourt title and that’s the WTF. Something unique on tour format-wise and reserved for the best of the best.
 
Kralingen said:
I’m embarrassed to be an American tennis fan.

Watching Cincy right now and for the SECOND time today, play is interrupted due to power issues, this time with the LED screens. After a gargantuan amount of money was spent on upgrades last summer. The players and crowds look over it, and the event is sparsely attended with a dead atmosphere so far.

And yet, a massive improvement from Canada, a tournament which was barely a 500 level, let alone a Masters. The finals were mid week, Thursday, and played while Cincy was already ongoing. Just embarrassing. Their tournament director is openly begging Alcaraz and Sinner to play, given that 3 of the past 4 winners have been Shelton, Popyrin, and Carreno Busta.

Canada has always suffered from Wimbledon hangover, but the needless shortening of the calendar between Wimby and Canada has hurt it severely. The new two week format for Canada/Cincy with a midweek final has had obviously negative results and was completely unnecessary.

There’s just no prestige and energy to pre-USO anymore. Almost no momentum carries over to the tournament and everyone skips or doesn’t go hard. These tournaments used to mean something, the Canada-Cincy double used to be a real goal, now players basically try not to get hurt. The heat seems to affect players more than ever and quality is down. The entire experience is just so low-rent despite the high ticket prices, indicative of a rot within both tennis and the country itself. The funniest part is neither are even the worst Masters, which would be Miami. Sad.
Click to expand...
Any event within proximity (4-5 weeks?) of a major is a warmup. The majors have swallowed tennis. That doesn’t mean the warmups like Cincy (and Canada if they fix the schedule ) can’t be fan and broadcast friendly and profitable. Dr Raul informs me that Mboko v Osaka was the best match of 2025 and possibly the best match he’s never seen.

PS, everyone likes Pablo.

giphy.gif
 
Better_Call_Raul said:
The players are independent contractors; there is no players union. Unlike team sports, there is no official season.
The organizers are free to set their prize money and two-week tournament lengths in order to maximize tournament revenue.
The players have the flexibility to play as much or as little as they wish. This is the beauty of free-market capitalism.
Click to expand...
That's not really true. The ATP sets the point structure. Only the top few players are far enough above the pack that they get to take the "zeros" in their ranking if they go against what the ATP says they should play.
 
Lozo1016 said:
Do you view Monte Carlo, Madrid, and Rome the same way? That they're warm-ups to RG and enjoyable, but not prestigious?
Click to expand...
Good point. Madrid, yes, as a warm-up, but Monte Carlo and Rome both have aura and prestige. Rome winners are remembered more than Canada winners.

But Cincinnati is also extremely prestigious.
 
MHI said:
Good point. Madrid, yes, as a warm-up, but Monte Carlo and Rome both have aura and prestige. Rome winners are remembered more than Canada winners.

But Cincinnati is also extremely prestigious.
Click to expand...

It’s in F’ing OHIO

London…Paris…NY…Cincinnati

Put it in Boston, or Dallas, or Seattle, then OK it’s approaching Slam level…Ohio is a Gen Alpha meme for a reason

I’m not the guy to say “let’s just do it this way”, generally a militant status quo defender, so I know it’s gotta stay in Cincy, it just has about as much cultural cachet as Baltimore or Philly in my book. Good for the ppl and government of that town for having it. But the players openly joke about how their hotels just look out on nothing and there’s not much to do.
 
Better_Call_Raul said:
The players are independent contractors; there is no players union. Unlike team sports, there is no official season.
The organizers are free to set their prize money and two-week tournament lengths in order to maximize tournament revenue.
The players have the flexibility to play as much or as little as they wish. This is the beauty of free-market capitalism…
Click to expand...

None of this true. :giggle:

Nevertheless, please explain how your fav capitalism works to your former fav Donnie because we’ve never had a US administration more involved in interfering with free markets. The destructive tariffs obviously but it’s way more. Donnie is constantly picking economic winners and losers. Incredibly this week he decided the Govt should be in business with Nvidia. He makes your fav Zhoran seem like Adam Smith on a cocaine high. Donnie makes smug statements on how much consumers should shop or not. If you want 33 dolls of your fav Egg you should be able to buy 33 with no Govt interference in the Egg doll market. Innovation and competition increase prosperity not Executive Orders. If you don’t act we are probably 12 months or less until the GOP decides free markets are anti-American. Central planning with a huge does of fake economic nationalism will be the norm.

IMG-0721.jpg
 
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GrassCourtFan said:
That's not really true. The ATP sets the point structure. Only the top few players are far enough above the pack that they get to take the "zeros" in their ranking if they go against what the ATP says they should play.
Click to expand...

Most of the elite players, and even much of the Top 50, are skipping either Canada or Cincy.

We have many malcontents like Alcaraz who whine that "the season is too long" while they go off and play in every $$$ exhibition they can find.

For a lower-ranked player, the status quo offers greater flexibility and freedom to compete as often as they wish to earn ranking points.
 
Last edited:
Kralingen said:
I’m embarrassed to be an American tennis fan.

Watching Cincy right now and for the SECOND time today, play is interrupted due to power issues, this time with the LED screens. After a gargantuan amount of money was spent on upgrades last summer. The players and crowds look over it, and the event is sparsely attended with a dead atmosphere so far.

And yet, a massive improvement from Canada, a tournament which was barely a 500 level, let alone a Masters. The finals were mid week, Thursday, and played while Cincy was already ongoing. Just embarrassing. Their tournament director is openly begging Alcaraz and Sinner to play, given that 3 of the past 4 winners have been Shelton, Popyrin, and Carreno Busta.

Canada has always suffered from Wimbledon hangover, but the needless shortening of the calendar between Wimby and Canada has hurt it severely. The new two week format for Canada/Cincy with a midweek final has had obviously negative results and was completely unnecessary.

There’s just no prestige and energy to pre-USO anymore. Almost no momentum carries over to the tournament and everyone skips or doesn’t go hard. These tournaments used to mean something, the Canada-Cincy double used to be a real goal, now players basically try not to get hurt. The heat seems to affect players more than ever and quality is down. The entire experience is just so low-rent despite the high ticket prices, indicative of a rot within both tennis and the country itself. The funniest part is neither are even the worst Masters, which would be Miami. Sad.
Click to expand...
I have literally never cared about Canada in my life and I care about it now even less so. Agreed
 
MeatTornado said:
I never viewed Canada or Cincinnati as particularly prestigious in the first place. I enjoy them, but they were always USO warm-ups to me.
Click to expand...
Cincy is just hot and humid at this time of year. Apparently worse than most recent years.

I couldn’t believe they had an atp 250 in Atlanta in July for all those years. That had to suck.
 
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The whole tour needs to be rethought, to some degree. The over-valorization of the Grand Slam events has taken the edge off the rest of the tour. Davis Cup, at points in the 30s and 80s above any individual tournament, is basically a joke now with the new format. The indoor circuit has lost its unique surface and one of its majors [WCT/GSC], and the other [ATP finals] ebbs and flows in prestige.

Saudi ¥€$ is supposed to save tennis? I saw this play out already in esports. Don't hold your breath.
 
helterskelter said:
Cincinnati final is also midweek.

Cincinnati starting before Canada finished was the crowning turd in the water pipe for me.
Click to expand...

Very awkward to potentially have a player scheduled to play Canada and Cincy on same day.
Presumably, accommodations are made when there's such scheduling conflicts.
Cincy can be very easily shortened. Seeded Cincy players receive a first-round bye.
There should be no byes. Just get it over with it quickly with a smaller draw.
:rolleyes:

Meanwhile, the fearless Emma is giving the #1 Saby all she can handle.
Is Emma set to capture NYC's heart once again?
:unsure:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1954987590085644747
 
Last edited:
Kralingen said:
I’m embarrassed to be an American tennis fan.

Watching Cincy right now and for the SECOND time today, play is interrupted due to power issues, this time with the LED screens. After a gargantuan amount of money was spent on upgrades last summer. The players and crowds look over it, and the event is sparsely attended with a dead atmosphere so far.

And yet, a massive improvement from Canada, a tournament which was barely a 500 level, let alone a Masters. The finals were mid week, Thursday, and played while Cincy was already ongoing. Just embarrassing. Their tournament director is openly begging Alcaraz and Sinner to play, given that 3 of the past 4 winners have been Shelton, Popyrin, and Carreno Busta.

Canada has always suffered from Wimbledon hangover, but the needless shortening of the calendar between Wimby and Canada has hurt it severely. The new two week format for Canada/Cincy with a midweek final has had obviously negative results and was completely unnecessary.

There’s just no prestige and energy to pre-USO anymore. Almost no momentum carries over to the tournament and everyone skips or doesn’t go hard. These tournaments used to mean something, the Canada-Cincy double used to be a real goal, now players basically try not to get hurt. The heat seems to affect players more than ever and quality is down. The entire experience is just so low-rent despite the high ticket prices, indicative of a rot within both tennis and the country itself. The funniest part is neither are even the worst Masters, which would be Miami. Sad.
Click to expand...
2 weeks between Wimbledon and Canada, in 2010 it was over a month. Wimbledon is a week later and USO a week earlier, so the in between tournaments is squeezed by two weeks.

Imo the key here is 4 weeks between Wimbledon and Canada. Then the players will be hungry to play at least either Canada or Cincy.
 
Judge Holden said:
The whole tour needs to be rethought, to some degree. The over-valorization of the Grand Slam events has taken the edge off the rest of the tour. Davis Cup, at points in the 30s and 80s above any individual tournament, is basically a joke now with the new format. The indoor circuit has lost its unique surface and one of its majors [WCT/GSC], and the other [ATP finals] ebbs and flows in prestige.

Saudi ¥€$ is supposed to save tennis? I saw this play out already in esports. Don't hold your breath.
Click to expand...
Very easy to solve: Seeding at slams not based on overall ranking but exclusxively based on the points earned in the respective "warm-ups" (to be more precise: the 128 players will be determined just like before but their order will be determined by the points won in the warm-up tournaments). Win-win, other tournaments are more important without taking away anything from the slams (if not even adding to it).
 
Guys, @Kralingen is Emma Navarro's dad's TTW account, and he's still trying to get that tournament to South Cackalacky. RESIST!

No, but seriously, as the sport becomes ever more physical, undoubtedly the latter stages of the season will suffer. It's been going that way for 20 years now, and it's not changing.
 
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helterskelter said:
Cincinnati final is also midweek.

Cincinnati starting before Canada finished was the crowning turd in the water pipe for me.
Click to expand...
Cincinnati has always started before Canada finished - that is nothing new. I like the idea of the Monday final but they should make it an evening / night final instead of a 3 PM start time.
 
Kralingen said:
I’m embarrassed to be an American tennis fan.

Watching Cincy right now and for the SECOND time today, play is interrupted due to power issues, this time with the LED screens. After a gargantuan amount of money was spent on upgrades last summer. The players and crowds look over it, and the event is sparsely attended with a dead atmosphere so far.

And yet, a massive improvement from Canada, a tournament which was barely a 500 level, let alone a Masters. The finals were mid week, Thursday, and played while Cincy was already ongoing. Just embarrassing. Their tournament director is openly begging Alcaraz and Sinner to play, given that 3 of the past 4 winners have been Shelton, Popyrin, and Carreno Busta.

Canada has always suffered from Wimbledon hangover, but the needless shortening of the calendar between Wimby and Canada has hurt it severely. The new two week format for Canada/Cincy with a midweek final has had obviously negative results and was completely unnecessary.

There’s just no prestige and energy to pre-USO anymore. Almost no momentum carries over to the tournament and everyone skips or doesn’t go hard. These tournaments used to mean something, the Canada-Cincy double used to be a real goal, now players basically try not to get hurt. The heat seems to affect players more than ever and quality is down. The entire experience is just so low-rent despite the high ticket prices, indicative of a rot within both tennis and the country itself. The funniest part is neither are even the worst Masters, which would be Miami. Sad.
Click to expand...

PTPA is working on this. Less tournaments is the way to go. Otherwise the players are overworking and injured all the time.
 
Canada Masters never had any prestige.

Even Cinci is not prestigious but at least it had the image of the fastest masters tournament or maybe tournament in USA and that was/is good. The Fed matches there made it special, but was it prestigious? I am not sure.

First of all masters in itself are just for maintaining seedings, Tennis is all about Slams, secondly even in USA the 2 prestigious ones are IW and MIami. Cinci is not so much...
 
Indian Wells is a rare example of a non-slam tournament that has been around for quite a while, and has seemingly increased in prestige, stature and 'glamour' over time. A lot of players talking about how much they love the tournament (Henman for example said that it was his favourite non-slam event bar none) has helped, alongside the fact that it doesn't lead into and is not close in the calendar to a grand slam, and all the issues negatively impacting its sister event Miami. It has essentially bucked the common trend.

Rome is still a big deal in its own right (the likes of Nadal and Djokovic saw it as more than simply a warm-up for RG), and in my very subjective opinion is easily one of the top 2 masters series events nowadays along with Indian Wells. But I think that even that doesn't quite have the same level of prestige nowadays as it used to have in previous eras, as tennis has become increasingly (and IMO regrettably) grand slam-centric.
 
Last edited:
Kralingen said:
I’m embarrassed to be an American tennis fan.

Watching Cincy right now and for the SECOND time today, play is interrupted due to power issues, this time with the LED screens. After a gargantuan amount of money was spent on upgrades last summer. The players and crowds look over it, and the event is sparsely attended with a dead atmosphere so far.

And yet, a massive improvement from Canada, a tournament which was barely a 500 level, let alone a Masters. The finals were mid week, Thursday, and played while Cincy was already ongoing. Just embarrassing. Their tournament director is openly begging Alcaraz and Sinner to play, given that 3 of the past 4 winners have been Shelton, Popyrin, and Carreno Busta.

Canada has always suffered from Wimbledon hangover, but the needless shortening of the calendar between Wimby and Canada has hurt it severely. The new two week format for Canada/Cincy with a midweek final has had obviously negative results and was completely unnecessary.

There’s just no prestige and energy to pre-USO anymore. Almost no momentum carries over to the tournament and everyone skips or doesn’t go hard. These tournaments used to mean something, the Canada-Cincy double used to be a real goal, now players basically try not to get hurt. The heat seems to affect players more than ever and quality is down. The entire experience is just so low-rent despite the high ticket prices, indicative of a rot within both tennis and the country itself. The funniest part is neither are even the worst Masters, which would be Miami. Sad.
Click to expand...

I think there's also something else that's going on that involves Sampras and his drive to have the most slams and treat other tournaments as whatever, the big three, the internet, and slam counts/goat discussions. In the '80s and even '90s, it wasn't all about the slams with these other tournaments thought of as afterthoughts to the degree they are now.
 
I feel that tennis fans are fatigued and bored. It was really exciting these past few years, seeing the end of the big 3, the emergence of Sincaraz & Nole cementing himself as the goat. What else is there to look forward to at this moment? aside from Grand Slams I couldn’t really care for the ATP atm.
 
Guttersnipe said:
I feel that tennis fans are fatigued and bored. It was really exciting these past few years, seeing the end of the big 3, the emergence of Sincaraz & Nole cementing himself as the goat. What else is there to look forward to at this moment? aside from Grand Slams I couldn’t really care for the ATP atm.
Click to expand...

ATP is cooked. PTPA filed a lawsuit demanding a better welfare for the players and demanding the same treatment for all players, and not long after that ATP CEO resigned.

Players are not happy and revolting. There is a revolution going on.
 
Spielgame said:
ATP is cooked. PTPA filed a lawsuit demanding a better welfare for the players and demanding the same treatment for all players, and not long after that ATP CEO resigned.

Players are not happy and revolting. There is a revolution going on.
Click to expand...
Politically, things have been relatively calm on the tennis tour since 1990. That's starting to change now, returning more to a 1980s or (if it gets worse) 1970s conditions with the power struggles and perhaps separate tours.
 
MeatTornado said:
I never viewed Canada or Cincinnati as particularly prestigious in the first place. I enjoy them, but they were always USO warm-ups to me.
Click to expand...
They are big titles as the ATP and wikipedia would say. Even if ATP wrongly promoted the BIG titles at the beginning , i finally find in a non ironic way the BIG titles final number as the best metric of somebody's career achievements. It's the right mix between weeks n°1 and slams won. It's pretty representative for the BIG3 overall ranking between them (72,59,54).
 
MeatTornado said:
A little bit, yeah.

Indian Wells & Miami were always the special ones that felt like their own big event, not anywhere near any slam. The other ones are still big deals in their own right, but I don't think Cincinnati means any more or less than it used to. It's a USO warm-up, the last chance for the big names to get some HC practice in before New York.
Click to expand...

Paris and Shangai/Madrid as well.
 
Winning slams without the previous wear and tear of masters 1000 and ATP 500/250 is not winning slams if it's playing 2 months of tennis instead of 11 months of tennis. BIG 3 slams number would be even bigger if they only focused on slams. If sinner and alcaraz skip all M1000 or don't play them seriously as an exhibition they risk being seen as slam vulturers in the long term with an unbalanced tennis CV. It's easier to play good tennis an be invincible when not tired. If this trend continue, Sinner and alcaraz might play as much matches per season in their remaining twenties as the BIG3 in their 30's.
 
MeatTornado said:
I never viewed Canada or Cincinnati as particularly prestigious in the first place. I enjoy them, but they were always USO warm-ups to me.
Click to expand...

Yet they are 2 of the oldest Masters events in the calendar, along with Monte Carlo (all 3 events dating back to the 19th century).
 
Kralingen said:
I’m embarrassed to be an American tennis fan.

Watching Cincy right now and for the SECOND time today, play is interrupted due to power issues, this time with the LED screens. After a gargantuan amount of money was spent on upgrades last summer. The players and crowds look over it, and the event is sparsely attended with a dead atmosphere so far.

And yet, a massive improvement from Canada, a tournament which was barely a 500 level, let alone a Masters. The finals were mid week, Thursday, and played while Cincy was already ongoing. Just embarrassing. Their tournament director is openly begging Alcaraz and Sinner to play, given that 3 of the past 4 winners have been Shelton, Popyrin, and Carreno Busta.

Canada has always suffered from Wimbledon hangover, but the needless shortening of the calendar between Wimby and Canada has hurt it severely. The new two week format for Canada/Cincy with a midweek final has had obviously negative results and was completely unnecessary.

There’s just no prestige and energy to pre-USO anymore. Almost no momentum carries over to the tournament and everyone skips or doesn’t go hard. These tournaments used to mean something, the Canada-Cincy double used to be a real goal, now players basically try not to get hurt. The heat seems to affect players more than ever and quality is down. The entire experience is just so low-rent despite the high ticket prices, indicative of a rot within both tennis and the country itself. The funniest part is neither are even the worst Masters, which would be Miami. Sad.
Click to expand...
I don't know but I am just laughing hysterically out of pure spite because 2 week M1000s were a ****ing ******** idea and now tennis is plucking the fruits from their idiocy
 
Mainad said:
Yet they are 2 of the oldest Masters events in the calendar, along with Monte Carlo (all 3 events dating back to the 19th century).
Click to expand...
And that's why I was very relieved when Cincinnati didn't relocate like it was threatened to a couple years ago. It has a long history. But at the same time I don't view it as super prestigious either.
 
It is a tough ask with added tournaments after the USO.
Guys are exhausted from long clay court season, then grass ct season tune-ups just for Wimbledon.
They truly do need to rest. If the conditions and scheduling were better they'd be back...oh and raising the $1M pittance to $1.5M might help.
 
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