The problem with mixed doubles ...

Davis937

Davis937

Professional
I'm sure this issue has been discussed previously, but I haven't seen any recent discussion ... OK, call me what you will ... but, I prefer playing doubles with the guys ... occasionally, for a variety of reasons (... lack of open courts being one big reason), I end up having to play mixed doubles ... we generally play at the 3.5 - 4.0 level ... and, yes, the women are decent players ... however, I notice that my game ends up being a little stilted in mixed play ... primarily because I unconsciously tend to "ease up" and will not go for any "kill" shots if my female opponent is somewhat "vulnerable" ... invariably, I will end up muffing a lot of these shots ... I know, I can't blame them for my faulty shots ... but, I know this is affecting my play ... any suggestions or comments are welcome!
 
i think what you are saying is correct. You are not true to your own playing style and then this leads to other mistakes.

I really take mixed doubles as a chance to master sweet volleys like drop volleys because the games is much slower than mens doubles.
 
... also, mixed doubles really messes with your timing ... plus ... I find that my mind really tends to wander ... a significant lack of focus ... I try to use my "mixed doubles time" to work on certain aspects of my game ... for example, I will hit nothing but second serves (... really try to work on my kicker ... and serve placement) ... hey, look at it this way ... if there were no mixed doubles ... none of us would be here!
 
Any comments from the ladies ...

Hey, Cindy and Tina and Brittany ... and all of you other female posters ... any comments from your perspective would be welcome!
 
Davis937 said:
Hey, Cindy and Tina and Brittany ... and all of you other female posters ... any comments from your perspective would be welcome!
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Ha!

Well, in this hypothetical, am I your partner or your opponent?

If we are partners, you had better play Straight Up Doubles. Crack your best serves and groundies at the woman at the baseline. Volley hard at her feet at net. Pass her down the alley until she gets dizzy. Use lots of spin. Hit your overheads to the open court. I will be very unhappy with you if you ease up -- we're trying to win a match, remember?

If we are opponents . . . I would very much like you to ease up on me, kind sir. I mean, I'm just a widdle girl. Push the ball, take it easy on me, go on. I can't hurt you.

: evil cackle:
 
i think it has to do with skill
lets say a 4.5 played doubles against a 3.5, well you are going to take an easy on him/her.
now if the women were D1 players, you wouldnt take an easy on them, even if they are women. so i think it has to do with skill level, rather than male or female opponent.
 
Mixed matches, I play normal doubles.

Social mixed I ease off on only two things:-
1) I play second serves to the woman - but I go for hard topspin or kickers, and sliders, so I use the game to get these serves up to a high %age for when I need to play them in singles or mens doubles; and
2) I don't pass the woman at the net with a hard drive - I either play heavy topspin dippers at her feet, or topspin lobs over her, again to practice such shots in a near-match situation
 
Cindysphinx said:
Ha!

Well, in this hypothetical, am I your partner or your opponent?

If we are partners, you had better play Straight Up Doubles. Crack your best serves and groundies at the woman at the baseline. Volley hard at her feet at net. Pass her down the alley until she gets dizzy. Use lots of spin. Hit your overheads to the open court. I will be very unhappy with you if you ease up -- we're trying to win a match, remember?

If we are opponents . . . I would very much like you to ease up on me, kind sir. I mean, I'm just a widdle girl. Push the ball, take it easy on me, go on. I can't hurt you.

: evil cackle:
Click to expand...

... that was great, Cin ... I knew you would come up with a "bewitching" post ... well done!
 
Larrysümmers said:
i think it has to do with skill
lets say a 4.5 played doubles against a 3.5, well you are going to take an easy on him/her.
now if the women were D1 players, you wouldnt take an easy on them, even if they are women. so i think it has to do with skill level, rather than male or female opponent.
Click to expand...

Excellent point, Larry ... yes, if I play 4.0 or higher ladies in mixed doubles, I will definitely hit out ... I am confident that they can take care of themselves on court ... and, they're also coming right at me ... hey, I want to win this thing!
 
naylor said:
Mixed matches, I play normal doubles.

Social mixed I ease off on only two things:-
1) I play second serves to the woman - but I go for hard topspin or kickers, and sliders, so I use the game to get these serves up to a high %age for when I need to play them in singles or mens doubles; and
2) I don't pass the woman at the net with a hard drive - I either play heavy topspin dippers at her feet, or topspin lobs over her, again to practice such shots in a near-match situation
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Hey, naylor ... excellent point ... I think a lot of men use social mixed doubles to work on serves and other strokes ... yes, you play to win but you never try to take any kind of "advantage" or to hurt any of your opponents ...
 
One more thing:

Don't miss your return of the woman's serve. Unless the opposing man is really active at net, you don't have to put that much on it. Just hit a solid return and come to net. Dare her to lob or pass you.

I've played matches where I make a higher percentage of returns against the woman than my male partner. Ease up, Big Fella, and let's make her play.
 
for me social vs match and skill level
social i practice place ment see if i can find the angle/space for the winner or force a sitter to put away.
match whatever it takes to win even if that means every ball goes to her.
if she can handle herself i play my game.
if she cant see social vs match
 
I play mixed all the time - no problems just a different kind of game. If you feel compelled to lighten up, work on finesse aspects of your game. Slice approach, angled shots, all kinds of stuff.

As Drak can attest, I am not a big server at all, but I tend to spin serves to women (they seem to have a harder time with slice and kick and even topspin serves than hard ones anyway) - otherwise apart from not intentionally pegging them - and using a little more finesse than power - no big change.

I play mixed with my wife regularly so I better enjoy it or else.
 
If the girl can't hack it, then she shouldn't be on the court. I think it might be different at a lower level though. I played 6.0 last weekend and I am stronger than my guy partner so when the girl opponent hit a lob I scooted back and slammed it at the guy opponent :twisted: If you are a girl and you can't hack it at the net then scoot back but be ready to run, boys like drop shots haha. I've had guys serve to me loads of different ways. Once they realize I'm the better player they start hitting harder, before I could only hold the racquet out and "ping" it back over, now I can hit back a normal return. Don't hold back guys! Even if we lose in mixed when we go back to women's doubles we kick butt!! :)
 
LeeD said:
I have a problem focusing on my serves and my return game, when playing mixed.
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Hey, Lee ... excellent point ... I didn't think about it but I have significant problems with my return game ... and I know why ... my focus tends to wander and I don't move my feet ... I get tremendously lazy! I usually don't have problems with my serve ... as mentioned earlier, I force myself to work on my second serve.
 
FloridaAG said:
I play mixed all the time - no problems just a different kind of game. If you feel compelled to lighten up, work on finesse aspects of your game. Slice approach, angled shots, all kinds of stuff.

As Drak can attest, I am not a big server at all, but I tend to spin serves to women (they seem to have a harder time with slice and kick and even topspin serves than hard ones anyway) - otherwise apart from not intentionally pegging them - and using a little more finesse than power - no big change.

I play mixed with my wife regularly so I better enjoy it or else.
Click to expand...

Excellent point, FloridaAG ... the ladies I play in mixed are adept at blocking my flat serve ... they do have more difficulty with my kicker ... I like to "practice" my second serve when serving to my "mix" opponent in doubles!
 
FloridaAG said:
I play mixed all the time - no problems just a different kind of game. If you feel compelled to lighten up, work on finesse aspects of your game. Slice approach, angled shots, all kinds of stuff.

As Drak can attest, I am not a big server at all, but I tend to spin serves to women (they seem to have a harder time with slice and kick and even topspin serves than hard ones anyway) - otherwise apart from not intentionally pegging them - and using a little more finesse than power - no big change.

I play mixed with my wife regularly so I better enjoy it or else.
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I forgot to ask ... do you work with law enforcement
 
What I never can understand is why a 3.5 guy isn't the same as a 3.5 girl? Every mixed team I have played on has girls that would never ever be called 3.5 if they were a guy. Isn't the rating system supposed to be gender blind?

The other thing that bugs me is that most 3.5 girls aren't very competitive and don't take the match as seriously as the guys do. I still enjoy mixed play, but at my level it can be very frustrating.
 
JackB1 said:
What I never can understand is why a 3.5 guy isn't the same as a 3.5 girl? Every mixed team I have played on has girls that would never ever be called 3.5 if they were a guy. Isn't the rating system supposed to be gender blind?

The other thing that bugs me is that most 3.5 girls aren't very competitive and don't take the match as seriously as the guys do. I still enjoy mixed play, but at my level it can be very frustrating.
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Q. Does the NTRP rate men and women on the same scale?

A. The NTRP is used to rate both men and women, but men's and women's ratings are not intended to be equivalent. When rating themselves, players should use players of the same gender as reference points. However, for those individuals wishing to compete against players of the opposite gender, the following can be use as a guide. At approximately the 3.5 rating for a man, a woman with a 4.0 rating will be competitive. When a man reaches the 5.0 level or above a woman needs to be approximately 1.0 higher in order to be competitive.

As much as I hate to admit it, men are stronger and faster then women. And I play at a 3.5 level and am VERY competitive, and I have yet to meet another 3.5 women in my region who isn't the same hahaha 3.0 is that way around here though.....
 
JackB1 said:
What I never can understand is why a 3.5 guy isn't the same as a 3.5 girl? Every mixed team I have played on has girls that would never ever be called 3.5 if they were a guy. Isn't the rating system supposed to be gender blind?
Click to expand...
No. You can look at the USTA's own website and it says that it's not gender blind. (And they should know, it's their rating system). They say there's a .5 gap. So a 4.0 woman would be competitive with a 3.5 man. It goes on to say that this gap increases to 1.0 at the highest levels. So a 6.0 man would be competitive with a 7.0 woman.
 
I'd say you are almost on the money on the ratings of women vs mens. At least generally.
It's close, but the year before some women WON a WTA Pro event, I was very close to their level, me being a 3.5. And that year, I was practicing with some women who had already WON a WTA event. Not an ancient history WTA event (whom I had already hit with), but a previous year WTA.
So it depends....who, how you actually hit and play, what is your potential, and how good the guy got the following year.
Following year. I actually played matches, and lost badly, to guys who the following year were ranked inside the top 30 in ATP.
 
The main problem on mixed doubles is when the guy is a bad player and constantly leave the girl in danger of been hit. In some cases the high percentage shot is straight to the net player (a dropshot or an short ball that you have to hit on the run) of course if you do not want to hit straight to the net girl you either send back an easy shot to put away by the others or simply miss the shot.

That is my experience, and I love to play mixed doubles with my wife.
 
Davis937 said:
... my focus tends to wander and I don't move my feet ... I get tremendously lazy! ...
Click to expand...

In mixed I normally end up playing the ad side, and I actually use the games to practice my footwork in running around to return deep inside-out CC forehands... but when the woman starts anticipating the deep return and stays back, I shape for another deep return but instead open the racketface and play a CC drop...
 
naylor said:
In mixed I normally end up playing the ad side, and I actually use the games to practice my footwork in running around to return deep inside-out CC forehands... but when the woman starts anticipating the deep return and stays back, I shape for another deep return but instead open the racketface and play a CC drop...
Click to expand...

You're a better man than me, naylor ... but, you are using your mixed doubles time productively ... I think it helps your focus if you decide to work on certain aspects of your game
 
LeeD said:
I have a problem focusing on my serves and my return game, when playing mixed.
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Yeah, I agree. It's hard to foucs on the ball when it's much better to stare at other assets or trying to make that certain connection. :rolleyes:

Edit: I love my wife.
 
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MayDay said:
...It's hard to foucs on the ball when it's much better to stare at other assets or trying to make that certain connection. :rolleyes:...
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The problem is that most female players (at my club) with nice assets I'd like to connect with play cr*p tennis... and after a while not even the nicest assets compensate for when they dump yet another sitter into the net... so the search for a (female) partner that plays good S&V doubles goes on...
 
It gets a little "tricky" in mixed doubles if I do not "go after" my female opponent ... however, the male opponent will specifically target my female partner ... it's an awkward situation ... yeah, I know ... I'm expected to "protect" my team mate ... but I want to stay away from an escalating "war" ... after all, it's a game, isn't it.
 
One thing I've noticed: in the beginner class, about 80% of the players are female. In the intermediate, about 80% of the players are male.

If experience level is equal (roughly), then size, strength and speed become factors.

The question is, are you a patient person who is also willing to help out, or are you a more competitive type, who wants to win, regardless? Nothing wrong with either approach, but it can let you know whether you want to continue with mixed doubles.
 
Cindysphinx said:
One more thing:

Don't miss your return of the woman's serve. Unless the opposing man is really active at net, you don't have to put that much on it. Just hit a solid return and come to net. Dare her to lob or pass you.

I've played matches where I make a higher percentage of returns against the woman than my male partner. Ease up, Big Fella, and let's make her play.
Click to expand...

Hmmm...from my point of view, when practicing with the 9.0/10.0 teams.

The younger girls are mostly college players (a lot of whom appeal their 5.5 rating down to 5.0) who may or may not be strong dubs players, or more seasoned players who may or may not have played college, but have become excellent dubs players some of whom lurk in 4.5.

So they return the other girl's serves great, better than me at first, so I focus on just being consistent and hitting a quality cross court return and playing out the point until I get it timed. While my girl partner absolutely tees off on the other girl's serve. Then once I get a feel for the other girl's serve, I start to return more offensively, and we are in business.

Conversely, when the guy serves, if my partner is struggling to adjust to it, I return more consistently, when she starts to get a feel for it, or if she is cracking the returns then I step it up.

I don't think I have ever played with/against a 4.0 girl. But the 4.0 guys a lot of the time don't know when to return conservatively, and when to lean on the ball.

J
 
J011yroger said:
Hmmm...from my point of view, when practicing with the 9.0/10.0 teams.

The younger girls are mostly college players (a lot of whom appeal their 5.5 rating down to 5.0) who may or may not be strong dubs players, or more seasoned players who may or may not have played college, but have become excellent dubs players some of whom lurk in 4.5.

So they return the other girl's serves great, better than me at first, so I focus on just being consistent and hitting a quality cross court return and playing out the point until I get it timed. While my girl partner absolutely tees off on the other girl's serve. Then once I get a feel for the other girl's serve, I start to return more offensively, and we are in business.

Conversely, when the guy serves, if my partner is struggling to adjust to it, I return more consistently, when she starts to get a feel for it, or if she is cracking the returns then I step it up.

I don't think I have ever played with/against a 4.0 girl. But the 4.0 guys a lot of the time don't know when to return conservatively, and when to lean on the ball.

J
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Thanks Jroger ... you bring up a good point ... in mixed doubles, the greater percentage of time the ladies we play with are "weaker" (... and I say this with all due respect) ... how should you play if, in fact, the women are stronger than the men in your mixed doubles match ... any thoughts or comments on this are welcome!
 
Target the weaker player regardless of race, religion, gender, national origin, marital status, age or sexual orientation.
 
Cindysphinx said:
Target the weaker player regardless of race, religion, gender, national origin, marital status, age or sexual orientation.
Click to expand...

Yikes ... I turned around and it dawned on me ... they were all targeting me ... at least they were aiming for my feet ... and ... placing their overheads away from me (... after seeing me concede the point) ... those young ladies cut me no slack ... but you know what ... and this is another consideration ... I am glad they played hard, hit out, and played the game the way it's supposed to be played ... doing this, they respected the game and they respected me as an opponent ... good point, no?
 
Davis937 said:
Thanks Jroger ... you bring up a good point ... in mixed doubles, the greater percentage of time the ladies we play with are "weaker" (... and I say this with all due respect) ... how should you play if, in fact, the women are stronger than the men in your mixed doubles match ... any thoughts or comments on this are welcome!
Click to expand...

****Disclaimer****

The following are the views of a guy who's game is built for singles play, but enjoys men's and mixed doubles and plays a lot and strives to get better at it.

I fill in and practice with 9.0/10.0 mixed teams, and am the mascot of a 9.0 team, will play next year. I play USTA 5.0 league, and Men's Open doubles in tournaments, and practice with guys and girls on 4.0-5.0 teams as well as college players, former pros, and Davis cup players for smaller countries.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, it is an odd situation when the girl is comprehensively better than the guy, and not a very good team.

The only time that you would have a team like that would be in 9.0 when you have a legitimate 4.0 guy, and a 5.0 girl, who should be a 5.5.

That is usually a weak team in that the girl will be rock solid, but not have very much that can win points outright. And the guy will make too many errors, and sink their ship.

Now if you have a ringer 4.0 guy playing with a 5.0 girl, then you have a tough team, because the ringer 4.0 guy will have something going for him in the matchup.

In order to carry a team you need firepower, and the ability to steal points at the net.

Now about your question on how to play when the girls are stronger. There are two situations.

The first situation is the one that is going to be most common for a guy, and the one I find myself in most often when playing with one of the very good girls, or in 5.0 mens.

You are a worse doubles player than your partner, but you have some strength, or advantage. In that case I would isolate what you do better than your partner, and make darn sure you squeeze every drop out of it. And then just make the makable or easier shots for the rest of the game, keep your unforced errors in check. So when you can help row the boat, row the crap out of it, when you can't row the boat, don't let it take on any water.

For me in men's 5.0 I know my purpose is to serve and return huge (or return quality if the score dictates). And I am super focused in not missing any weak returns of my partner's serve, overheads, mid court floaters, whatever.

If I am not as good of a dubs player and get caught in a net exchange and get beaten by someone with better hands or if I can't put away a ball at net that a better dubs player could, or if I get passed by a quality shot that maybe a better dubs player could pick off, then all of that is OK, because nobody is expecting Leander Paes out there, they know you are the weaker player. But when it is on your mind, and your partner hits a good serve, and you get an easy floater return and miss it. . . That is really bad.

You want your partner to understand your limitations, but believe that you are going to handle everything within your capabilities. (Well not EVERYTHING, but you know what I am saying) You don't want to be missing shots and have your parter thinking "What do I have to do to win points with this person?!?". I actually told my buddy this after a bad loss (he is a 4.0 that should be a 4.5 playing with a 5.0 girl that should be a 5.5) and they are an awesome team. I told him that nobody expects you to be something that you are not, and nobody expects you to do something you cannot, but you owe your team your best effort every time out, and you are expected to play up to your capabilities. Bad days happen, of course, but be able to clear your mind and take care of what you can, don't be upset about the last return game where you got bullied around by a great server and then miss your returns against the weak server.

The second situation is the rarer one for me, and doesn't happen in mixed (not that it really matters) but it happens occasionally when I am playing with one of the top guys on the 5.0 (ha!) mens team or some of the former pro/davis cup guys who teach around here. And that is when your partner is comprehensively better than you.

In that case your sole purpose is to not make stupid errors. Don't double fault, do your best to get serves back, and don't miss easy balls at the net. You want to be dependable, and let them play their game. The worst thing you can do is try to prove yourself or raise to their level. They know you are weaker, just play within yourself and be solid. Now that doesn't mean to be passive, or play tentatively, if you get an easy ball, kill that sucker, but don't try to be a hero.

J
 
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