The real issue with the Serena/Ramos situation.....

jhupper

Rookie
He penalized her for coaching, questioning her integrity FIRST! That was the first “over the line” thing that caused the controversy. And that’s the part you seem to keep wanting to skip past.

Thats an emotional opinion that doesn’t actually address any facts.

Respect is a two way street though, and it’s earned. Singling out a specific player, on a specific occasion and treating them differently IS behaving disrespectfully.

Uh no my friend, she did NOT cheat (as confirmed by her coach when he said she didn’t see him). He cheated, as do all the other coaches (which he also pointed out). So you are selectively mining his words to advance a false narrative.

Nobody is arguing against that point. Players smash rackets all the time. Not relevant.

Um, actually it’s on the officials to prevent escalation and to de-escalate situations. Carlos Ramos failed on both counts and that’s why the tennis community has largely supported Serena in this case.
HER COACH ACCEPTED HE COACHED HER!!!!! Regardless if she saw, she is responsible for his actions while on court in this regard.

I'm shocked. I truly cannot believe that anybody is able or willing to look past simplest aspect of this.... the behaviour.

Justifying her behaviour on the premise that someone else once did it is outrageous. Everyone, not just spokespeople have an obligation to behave in an appropriate manner. If you feel her attitude, behaviour, or general presentation was acceptable then........ well...... you're beyond help.

How would you feel if your child behaved like that to a teacher or a tournament official and defended it because serena did it and well Margaret court said it was ok.

Excuse it all you want, she was and is an embarrassment to the sport.

Ps.. have you watched CR trying to calm her and move on from the conflict.... She was desperately searching for any excuse to loose.

Anyway I'm out, I'm content with my moral compass and I hope serena and her behaviour isn't seem as something this sport defends going forward.

PPS. I call troll
 

Big_Dangerous

Talk Tennis Guru
Please, tell us more about this "affirmative action mentality" you speak of?
I understand that poaster is an Asian American, but man his grammar and sentence structure leaves a lot to be desired. He also clearly doesn't understand the concept of affirmative action either.
 

a10best

Hall of Fame
I’ve already seen Martina’s view (and she’s not wrong by the way). She in fact confirmed that she would have expected the same thing to happen to her had she been in that situation AND said that Serena was right to call out sexism. The only point she really made different is saying that Serena should have let it go because of the moment. Obviously Serena felt different, and that probably cost her the match. But Serena Williams is more outspoken than Navratilova. And that’s why other outspoken tennis players and commentators (Billie Jean King, John McEnroe, Chris Evert, Mary Joe Fernandez, Andy Roddick, and James Blake) have stood by Serena’s position. It’s one thing to say that women are treated unfairly, but to say that she should just accept that an let it go is obviously not in Williams nature. Something like that is not worth “letting go” just for the sake of one match. That’s something important enough to address right then and there, and that’s what a courageous person with principles does. They fight for what they believe in, even if it gets them in trouble. They may not win the battle, but invariably they will win the war.
She was losing again in straight sets to the same player who beat her earlier this year. Serena got broke 3-4 times & was overpowered.

No sexism. Before posting and believing everything Serena says, research and/or see my post above.
Fact checking can do people some good.

You think espn tennis commentators are going to go against Serena? SW owns them.
But Stephen A Smith did go against her and other big sports media personalities as well.
Be objective even as a fan.

What people can admire about Serena is in that heated moment she never cursed. Most people would say you're a ***** thief.
No sexism (or any ism) just an umpire who goes too far in giving violations to all players.

I guess there is no reasoning with Serena, Djokovic,Fed or Rafa fans when it comes to any of them ever doing anything wrong.
This is futile and I'm done. Unless you give me an apology, Say it, Say It. "
 

Service Ace

Hall of Fame
I understand that poaster is an Asian American, but man his grammar and sentence structure leaves a lot to be desired. He also clearly doesn't understand the concept of affirmative action either.
Oh, I think he does. At least in the context in which he meant to apply it. Same as using the word "uppity" or "welfare queen" when you want to address a specific section of the population which one could have just as easily substituted for "affirmative action" in this instance.
 

Soianka

Hall of Fame
I would say no... But have been seeing this a lot lately, where people are labeled "white" when they are clearly not "white" in a sense that would suggest possible white American racist beliefs or history. Just proves how racist the self proclaimed "anti racist" truly are.
The post above is absolutely unintelligible.
 

4sound

Semi-Pro
3. It's not a judgement call, I've posted above the excerpt from the GS rule book. If someone calls an umpire "a liar" and "a thief" it's clearly punishable according to the rule.
I agree its punishable & I'm glad he did it. Its a judgement call on when he did it because she was going on for a while before she called him a thief.
 

Big_Dangerous

Talk Tennis Guru
So someone telling an umpire to "stop fuc....ing talking to me" is not pushing the envelope?
Although, Fed did say something similar to an umpire back in 2009.

His complaint was legitimate though. Del Potro took like 20 seconds to decide to challenge and it was granted. I still love that exchange though. :cool:


"Don't tell me the effing rules!"

"Don't tell me to be quiet, when I want to talk I talk, okay?!"

Boss.
 
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AM75

Hall of Fame
So someone telling an umpire to "stop fuc....ing talking to me" is not pushing the envelope?
Not really, because he didn't abuse the umpire directly (i.e he didn't say "you f**k don't talk to me") and didn't imply that the umpire is dishonest.
 

4sound

Semi-Pro
Then again, his sign was pretty obvious and he made the gesture twice, so that tells me he was determined that Serena see what he was trying to communicate to her with regards to moving forward into the net more. He also admitted to coaching when interviewed by Pam Shriver after the match ended. His excuse was that everyone else does it, so why was I called for it. That's a pretty weak excuse. I think the umpire was well within his rights to make that call, and it was the correct call. Whether she saw it or not is irrelevant, as is the commonality of coaching from the stands in tennis by other players that Patrick mentioned and then used as an excuse.
He was well within his rights to call it. The timing of it was weird (already in the 2nd set). It happens all the time throughout the match by both coaches. I just think the chair having to police the coaching in the crowd is a rule that should be reviewed for change. It should be something like, eject the coach from the match instead of penalize the player that may or may not even be getting advise.
 

deaner2211

Semi-Pro
Although, Fed did say something similar to an umpire back in 2009.

His complaint was legitimate though. Del Potro took like 20 seconds to decide to challenge and it was granted. I still love that exchange though. :cool:


"Don't tell me the effing rules!"

"Don't tell me to be quiet, when I want to talk I talk, okay?!"

Boss.
Not really, because he didn't abuse the umpire directly (i.e he didn't say "you f**k don't talk to me") and didn't imply that the umpire is dishonest.
So using profanity at the umpire is not abuse?
 

AM75

Hall of Fame
Lol at the mental gymnastics required to avoid the obvious cognitive dissonance you're experiencing

Only people who have cognitive dissonance on this forum since Saturday are b**thurt Serena's fans who try to defend their spoiled diva queen with their perverted logic.
For others the case is quite clear.
 
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disgruntledamsel

Professional
Why can't tennis be like golf? Serena should have called these penalties on herself.
Yeah, how about that Kevin Stadler incident though -he breaks his club in frustration, part of the club flies into a fan's head requiring 6 stitches, and he continued golfing. A tour official said "Kevin is devastated. He had trouble trying to finish the round. He was quite worried and felt so bad." Sure, guy. What a total douchecanoe for finishing the round. Why was he even allowed to do that? Yep. Serena would fit right in with that group.
 
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wangs78

Hall of Fame
Then again, his sign was pretty obvious and he made the gesture twice, so that tells me he was determined that Serena see what he was trying to communicate to her with regards to moving forward into the net more. He also admitted to coaching when interviewed by Pam Shriver after the match ended. His excuse was that everyone else does it, so why was I called for it. That's a pretty weak excuse. I think the umpire was well within his rights to make that call, and it was the correct call. Whether she saw it or not is irrelevant, as is the commonality of coaching from the stands in tennis by other players that Patrick mentioned and then used as an excuse.
Exactly right. Ramos did everything an impartial umpire should have done. There was no error in judgment oh his part at all, as some of the TV commentators have said in the aftermath. Any leniency he could have exercised towards Serena would have been PREFERENTIAL treatment towards her. Unfortunately, the powers that be are content bashing him because as an umpire he cannot even tell his side of the story to the press.
 

Big_Dangerous

Talk Tennis Guru
So using profanity at the umpire is not abuse?
I never said it wasn't or it was. I was just posting a similar incident with Fed using profanity and getting upset with the chair umpire for granting a very late challenge. Although, in Fed's case he made no disparaging remarks to the chair umpire personally. He never called him a thief and accused him of stealing a point from him. ;)

I don't know if profanity alone is enough to warrant verbal abuse. How many players have yelled out f this, puta madre, (Verdasco, I'm looking your way) or any other profane word/phrase in their respective language? Don't think that would go over well to call that abusive when more often than not, they are mad at themselves for playing below their own lofty expectations.

In Fed's case, the worst that he said was, Don't tell me the ***** rules" and "Don't tell me to be quiet." Granted, that sounds worse than, "You're a thief, you stole a point from me." Although, if Serena got so upset for being warned for on-court coaching that she took it as being called a cheater, then calling Ramos a thief seems justifiable in terms of verbal abuse.
 
The post above is absolutely unintelligible.
Please do enlighten everyone if you care too. It's become an end all be all attack never supported/backed by facts. It's sickening, and thrown around blindly at people who in no way had or have had anything to do with sexism or racism, may have actually suffered it themselves. It's unfortunate that it's used purely for the wow factor alone, same reason to bring her integrity, child and motherhood into it... When your wrong, sometimes it's good to stfu, continuing to run your mouth as in Serena case only reveals more sad truths as to who she really is. She should also have listened to whatever Ramos said as fact not opinion, there are times when the person your talking to knows more than you do, or than you think they know. Suggesting he was mistaken on the coaching call, then a thief is nothing more than an all out attack on his character and calls to question him being in the chair and the people that selected him to be in the chair in front of a few million people. Ironically its an attack she in the moment used as a double standard. That's seriously LA tactics, claiming to be wronged knowing full well you weren't and trying to leverage pr to further your wrong cause.
 
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byealmeens

Semi-Pro
Oh give me a break! You’ve lost all credibility with such a ridiculous argument. You honestly think that Carlos Ramos, a man who has officiated many men’s matches with heated exchanges, was “frightened” by a woman calling him a thief? That’s so absurd it’s no wonder you’d want to quickly write of sexism. “Incensed” is more like it, because that’s the only explanation for his wreckless behavior.
She did a lot more than call him a thief. She threatened him (stating he would never work one of her matches again), called him a liar, continued to harass him about owing her an apology and insisted he tell the crowd she didn’t receive coaching even though she had received a warning earlier and the issue was seemingly resolved. This continued for a long time (several games) and Ramos finally called her for a code violation after the thief comment. It’s awfully convenient of you to take one single word out of that tirade to minimize what occurred. Either you didn’t watch the match or you’re twisting the situation to suit your point. My guess would be the former given your total disregard for Ramos, who was visibly affected.
 

thrust

Hall of Fame
Overall, it was unfortunate how everything played out. I think we can't believe how the problems on court escalated and we all want to blame someone solely. You have sides blaming Serena, others blaming the umpire, and some blaming Serena's coach. I think everyone agrees on that Osaka was playing her game and had a high chance of winning. That moment was robbed from her. Serena called Ramos a thief, but Serena/Patrick/Ramos were all thieves of stealing Osaka wonderful moment of being a Grand Slam Champion.
Maybe Margret Court paid Carlos off-LOL!
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
I’ve already seen Martina’s view (and she’s not wrong by the way). She in fact confirmed that she would have expected the same thing to happen to her had she been in that situation AND said that Serena was right to call out sexism. The only point she really made different is saying that Serena should have let it go because of the moment. Obviously Serena felt different, and that probably cost her the match. But Serena Williams is more outspoken than Navratilova. And that’s why other outspoken tennis players and commentators (Billie Jean King, John McEnroe, Chris Evert, Mary Joe Fernandez, Andy Roddick, and James Blake) have stood by Serena’s position. It’s one thing to say that women are treated unfairly, but to say that she should just accept that an let it go is obviously not in Williams nature. Something like that is not worth “letting go” just for the sake of one match. That’s something important enough to address right then and there, and that’s what a courageous person with principles does. They fight for what they believe in, even if it gets them in trouble. They may not win the battle, but invariably they will win the war.
I'm actually seeing some sense in the argument that the men and women have separate major events (they can have a separate mixed championship.)
Then the whole sexist issue is put to bed. And equal pay. The prize money can be according to what entrance fees/sponsorship/tv rights etc each event brings.
That should diffuse all calls of sexism. They can all earn what the viewing public deem fit.
 

Big_Dangerous

Talk Tennis Guru
Exactly right. Ramos did everything an impartial umpire should have done. There was no error in judgment oh his part at all, as some of the TV commentators have said in the aftermath. Any leniency he could have exercised towards Serena would have been PREFERENTIAL treatment towards her. Unfortunately, the powers that be are content bashing him because as an umpire he cannot even tell his side of the story to the press.
It seems to me as though they are more upset that they got caught because it's so common in tennis, at least according to Patrick Morataglu.
 
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Soianka

Hall of Fame
Please do enlighten everyone if you care too. It's become an end be all attack never supported/backed by facts. It's sickening, and thrown around blindly at people who in no way had or have had anything to do with sexism or racism, may have actually suffered it themselves. It's unfortunate that it's used purely for the wow factor alone, same reason to bring her integrity, child and motherhood into it... When your wrong, sometimes it's good to stfu, continuing to run your mouth as in Serena case only reveals more sad truths as to who she really is. She should also have listened to whatever Ramos said as fact not opinion, there are times when the person your talking to knows more than you do, or than you think they know. Suggesting he was mistaken on the coaching call, then a thief is nothing more than an all out attack on his character and calls to question him being in the chair and the people that selected him to be in the chair in front of a few million people. Ironically its an attack she in the moment used as a double standard. That's seriously LA tactics, claiming to be wronged knowing full well you weren't and trying to leverage pr to further your wrong cause.
How could I possibly enlighten everyone on the meaning of your post when it's so poorly constructed that I couldn't decipher it.
 

disgruntledamsel

Professional
Even my kids know that the “everyone else does it” excuse is no excuse at all.
People do use that argument about speeding - they usually tell the cop that they were just going with the flow of traffic; i.e., apparently everyone around me was speeding too so I didn't realize how fast I was going. And yeah, that argument doesn't work usually unless the cop is feeling generous, you have a clean record, and you've been nothing but polite and respectful - if you're lucky, you just get a warning. Serena didn't have those things going for her really.

Frankly, when she got the coaching violation, she should have laughed - since Serena can't help herself she could have commented "okay, whatever, sure - as if" and kept it moving. No one would even remember it happened because the match was pretty intense anyway - but she decided to keep reminding everyone of the injustice of it all. Moreover, as far as Carlos warning her she was on the verge of a game penalty, she shouted at him to stop talking to her, so she didn't want to hear anything more from him. At that point, she wasn't interested in talking with him, she was talking at him. Finally, it's annoying that the networks are picking and choosing little snippents of her tirade, espn showed the liar and thief thing, tennis channel showed the bit about her threatening that he would never ref one of her matches again and showed that Serena actually thanked Carlos at one point because he had cleared up what the coaching violation was. Why not show her entire tirade at each changeover back to back in its entirety?
 

byealmeens

Semi-Pro
Whether he was coaching or not isn’t the issue. Whether she “saw” it or not is irrelevant. These are questions that are missing the point.

The relevant question is, was it appropriate for the umpire to issue a code violation for that, given the situation and the precedents that have been established? Not CAN he do this, but SHOULD he have done it? And the general consensus (at least in the tennis community) is that it was over the top, and he was out of line. The fact that coaching happens frequently (including at this very tournament) routinely without ever being charged adds perspective that you can’t just sweep aside because that highlights a problem with bias in the sport. Most of the time when an umpire does decide to actually enforce this rule, the tradition is for them to issue a “soft warning” rather than a code violation! It’s usually only after repeat offenses that a player is issued an official coaching violation, and that is extremely rare! I see coaching happening in every match, but I can’t recall the last time I saw an actual code violation for it before this match.

The other problem is that he later docked Serena an entire game penalty for supposed “verbal abuse” after she called him a thief. And that to me is the most absurd abuse of authority that I’ve ever seen, ESPECIALLY when you consider what many of the male players do on a regular basis. There is a difference between using the F word towards and official, or calling them an “abortion” (which I’m pretty sure got applauded, and no code violation at all), and saying they are a thief for taking a point. The code violation generally has to actually rise to the severity of “abuse”, and in this case it didn’t. The fact that the umpire knew this would result in a game penalty adds credence to the “sexism” argument. Because in a grand slam final, you would expect an umpire to exercise maximum restraint, and attempt to affect the outcome of the match to the minimum extent possible. And we see this in men’s matches all the time. The question wasn’t was it in his right to do so (clearly it was). The question is, why would he go out of his way to enforce all rules (for this player) to the maximum penalty (both times) in this particular situation? Objectively, it doesn’t make any sense, and that’s why the tennis community (analysts, commentators, WTA and ATP) are backing her.
The issue is whether rules “should” be enforced?? Maybe YOU should give all of us a break. Regardless of your opinion (or others), rules are written to be enforced. This and all rules in the sport “should” be enforced. If they are not then change is required to assure that they are ...
 

tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
How could I possibly enlighten everyone on the meaning of your post when it's so poorly constructed that I couldn't decipher it.
You start looking at grammar when you don't have defense to the argument

Karma is a beetch and Serena , the egomaniac , will suffer for ruining Ramos's career and the hurt / anguish she has caused him
 

Soianka

Hall of Fame
You start looking at grammar when you don't have defense to the argument

Karma is a beetch and Serena , the egomaniac , will suffer for ruining Ramos's career and the hurt / anguish she has caused him

Didn't say anything about grammar. And the other fellows post wasn't really about Serena at all. Try to keep up.
 

disgruntledamsel

Professional
Another squirrelly aspect of this whole "why didn't Carlos make an attempt to diffuse the situation by explaining to her that she was going to get another violation"... "extend an olive branch", "implore her not to escalate the situation" is that in this very tournament, ump Lahyani just got busted for going out of his way to help Kyrgios not get a tanking violation. In light of another ump getting in trouble for helping a player when they aren't supposed to, why is everyone demanding that Carlos help out Serena?
 

byealmeens

Semi-Pro
People do use that argument about speeding - they usually tell the cop that they were just going with the flow of traffic; i.e., apparently everyone around me was speeding too so I didn't realize how fast I was going. And yeah, that argument doesn't work usually unless the cop is feeling generous, you have a clean record, and you've been nothing but polite and respectful - if you're lucky, you just get a warning. Serena didn't have those things going for her really.

Frankly, when she got the coaching violation, she should have laughed - since Serena can't help herself she could have commented "okay, whatever, sure - as if" and kept it moving. No one would even remember it happened because the match was pretty intense anyway - but she decided to keep reminding everyone of the injustice of it all. Moreover, as far as Carlos warning her she was on the verge of a game penalty, she shouted at him to stop talking to her, so she didn't want to hear anything more from him. At that point, she wasn't interested in talking with him, she was talking at him. Finally, it's annoying that the networks are picking and choosing little snippents of her tirade, espn showed the liar and thief thing, tennis channel showed the bit about her threatening that he would never ref one of her matches again and showed that Serena actually thanked Carlos at one point because he had cleared up what the coaching violation was. Why not show her entire tirade at each changeover back to back in its entirety?
Completely agree. Many are picking and choosing portions of Serena’s tirade simply to suit their point. The argument about others breaking the rules is just plain laughable. Often you know you’re wrong before making such a statement. That’s never just cause for doing something wrong.
 

ScentOfDefeat

G.O.A.T.
Serena tries to involve everyone in her own narrative (it used to be the 18 Slams, then the 20 Slams, then it was the 22 Slams and the 24 Slams now; and there was also the CYGS somewhere in between), as if her accomplishing these things is more important to the world than the player across the net winning their first, second or third Slam.

I'm quite fed up with this to be honest, and in fact wanted Serena to get to 24 or 25 as fast as possible so we could once and for all be delivered from this constant drama that was even creating a pattern at this point (a nervous Serena having to scream and bully her way to victory).

I hoped against hope (and still do) that she will be satiated when she beats that record and we can finally have some peace and quiet and other kinds of drama (for once) that are unrelated to Serena's quest for supermegagigaGOATdom.

As Deleuze used to say about a theme running through Vincent Minelli's films, there is something very unpleasant about being caught in someone else's dreams.
In Serena's case, even Osaka winning her first Slam needs to be a little footnote in the GOAT's main storyline.
 
You start looking at grammar when you don't have defense to the argument

Karma is a beetch and Serena , the egomaniac , will suffer for ruining Ramos's career and the hurt / anguish she has caused him
Soianka has nothing to say... Serena was wrong on all counts and anyone arguing her case is as wrong as her with questionable (on many levels) motives.
 
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byealmeens

Semi-Pro
Another squirrelly aspect of this whole "why didn't Carlos make an attempt to diffuse the situation by explaining to her that she was going to get another violation"... "extend an olive branch", "implore her not to escalate the situation" is that in this very tournament, ump Lahyani just got busted for going out of his way to help Kyrgios not get a tanking violation. In light of another ump getting in trouble for helping a player when they aren't supposed to, why is everyone demanding that Carlos help out Serena?
They are making that point due to the importance of the moment, trying to imply that she deserved an additional warning given that she was about to lose a game in the GS final. That is excessive and unnecessary ... Serena knows the rules, and certainly knows better than to completely lose her cool with an umpire after a point penalty was given.
 
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Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
Wasn’t there a match where Kyrgios said something like that’s ****ing ******** and that Ramos has incredible bias and then Ramos let him get away with it?

Ramos is more strict than other umpires but the rules are so inconsistently applies even by Carlos. That’s the main issue in my opinion.
 

skip1969

G.O.A.T.
Another squirrelly aspect of this whole "why didn't Carlos make an attempt to diffuse the situation by explaining to her that she was going to get another violation"... "extend an olive branch", "implore her not to escalate the situation" is that in this very tournament, ump Lahyani just got busted for going out of his way to help Kyrgios not get a tanking violation. In light of another ump getting in trouble for helping a player when they aren't supposed to, why is everyone demanding that Carlos help out Serena?
I thought the same thing. After what happened to Lahyani, the umps must have gotten a mandate not to try to favor a player during a match, especially not a star player. And just to let things happen as they will.

He was more than reasonable to her, I thought. And she accepted that the warning was given for the actions of her coach and not because he was accusing her of anything. It wasn't personal. She even thanked him during that changeover. Her mistake was later (after she broke her racquet) on insisting he revoke that warning for coaching, and then to apologize. Was she nuts?? He couldn't take it back. And she was demanding an apology? She asked him for one over and over. And at one point said, "Say you're sorry!" as if he was her stooge or something. She's the one who turned it into a fight about men versus women, and racism/sexism, and the holy dignity of motherhood and all that. It was absurd.
 

vex

Hall of Fame
The thing that's baffling to me is that she didn't think she had 2 violations. She was surprised after that racket smash that she incurred a point penalty. It seemed as though she didn't know a warning for coaching was considered a code violation. And then she was adamant that she didn't receive coaching so much so that it's almost as if she convinced herself that Ramos had rescinded it - which is just silly and ridiculous. I've never seen an umpire or official after getting an earful from a player reverse the call at the players' behest.
Totally agree. It was really hard to understand what she was thinking.
 

sbengte

G.O.A.T.
They way to fix this is to remove all coaches from the stadium. Let them watch from the bar while drinking a beer...or scotch...or both.
So is it OK for the coach to sit in a bar, be on the phone/some sort of communication device with someone else in the players's box and that someone signals the coach's message to the player ?
 
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