The real reason why Medvedev won, and why Djoko looked like that

Rudiiii

Rookie
You may not agree or agree or whatever, because you are either bias, or have hard time to understand it, but it's 100% true.
Easiest example i will give you, it's Roddick against Federer and the rest. Again the rest he manage to squeeze way way more aces. Against Federer he was always lacking compare to the rest, because Federer at his prime have great feeling and reflexes where to go to manage to react on the big serve.
Same with Nadal manage to squeeze so many return back in play, and so many people aces are cut twice or more, because of his position. And they see the aces are not coming, and they are going for more.
It's simple as that.
Just swallowed it, Medvedev totally destroy Djokovic tactically.
Djokovic played like a crap, cause of Medvedev genius tactical approach.
Yeah you are right, great analysis, good job
 

natalia

Hall of Fame
Yeah some people just don't understand the game, and that's it. You don't just win the first 3 GS title, and knocking in the door of history, and suddenly out of nowhere you play like a completely s****.
You are playing as much as your opponents allow you.
Yes there is matches, where the one player, have a great day, and other just have terrible, and not deliver, but this match was very, very different from that.
But you to understand the tactical part of the game, and to have an eye for it.

Without to insult someone, a lot of people here have no clue, they just pump hard, and claiming he is the greatest, or he is the greatest, he destroy x and y, he is the best, and all that kind of b.c. posts all around.
No one even comment why x or y result happen, what was the reason for it.

I was shocked to see no one comment, on all the point i mention, and especially the VERY obviously ones, like the very fast serving on Medvedev side, as well as Medvedev constantly playing deep ball in the center part. This was SO SO obviously a huge tactical plan, not just put the ball back in play.

Where was the Djokovic usual angles? Where was the Djokovic usable use of his opponent pace to math him ? Nowhere to be seen, cause Medvedev didn't give him any of that. He didn't gave him any space to play his angle, he didn't have him any pace, so Djokovic to use it.

Medvedev just totally outshine Djokovic tactically. That was a flawless tactical performance. If people can't see that, their tennis knowledge is just lacking.
Andy Roddick, is that you??
 

PilotPete

Hall of Fame
Yeah some people just don't understand the game, and that's it. You don't just win the first 3 GS title, and knocking in the door of history, and suddenly out of nowhere you play like a completely s****.
You are playing as much as your opponents allow you.
Yes there is matches, where the one player, have a great day, and other just have terrible, and not deliver, but this match was very, very different from that.
But you to understand the tactical part of the game, and to have an eye for it.

Without to insult someone, a lot of people here have no clue, they just pump hard, and claiming he is the greatest, or he is the greatest, he destroy x and y, he is the best, and all that kind of b.c. posts all around.
No one even comment why x or y result happen, what was the reason for it.

I was shocked to see no one comment, on all the point i mention, and especially the VERY obviously ones, like the very fast serving on Medvedev side, as well as Medvedev constantly playing deep ball in the center part. This was SO SO obviously a huge tactical plan, not just put the ball back in play.

Where was the Djokovic usual angles? Where was the Djokovic usable use of his opponent pace to math him ? Nowhere to be seen, cause Medvedev didn't give him any of that. He didn't gave him any space to play his angle, he didn't have him any pace, so Djokovic to use it.

Medvedev just totally outshine Djokovic tactically. That was a flawless tactical performance. If people can't see that, their tennis knowledge is just lacking.
Very good post. But if you say when Federer plays with variety he can beat Djokovic, why doesn't Federer then always play this way against Djokovic?
 

PilotPete

Hall of Fame
Djokovic won 80% of first serve, but served only 50%. I mean it is not up to Med whethever Nole serves in or out? Those are some qualifications %..Med was little better like 60% of first serve and also won 80%, but served like crazy which can't be said for Djokovic. Pressure exposed bad sides of both, especially Nole.
In some ways it is. If Medy is making Djokovic expend more energy in the rallies trying to generate pace, that will affect his legs a lot. If he takes out his legs, the serve will be affected. So indirectly, Medy's tactics are affecting Djokovic's serve.
 

PilotPete

Hall of Fame
More excuses. Djokovic would have never lost to different player than Medvedev, because they don't play tactically right against Djoko.
Djoko was going for the net play, because Medvedev was standing in the crowd on return. This could have worked, if Djoko net game was way better, and he actually have any rhythm into his game.
Djokovic see that he can't do s**** from the baseline, and that's why he decide to change something.
He didn't have any problem playing insanely long matches at way harder surfaces in clay, and let's not forget that he played a tournament right before RG, so he literally has zero rest, and then played multiple insane hard matches, and he still manage to turn Tsitsipas from 2-0, and had show ZERO physically wear in that match.
He also have zero wear in Zverev match.
But suddenly he was tired in the very first set. :D
Yeah it's so fun with all of this excuses.
No gentlements it was all Medvedev tactical masterpiece, just accept it !!!

And don't make me laugh with Berrettini that guy has only his Serve. You send 2 balls to his BH side, and he is producing error after error. And he don't even know how to disrupt someone momentum. You actually embarrass yourself with that ridiculous excuses attempt.

It's good to see at least some people with a little bit of brain, that see the certain tactical tricks that Medvedev used, like the fast serves and playing deep in the center line, to not give Djokovic chance to play his angle game.
This guys gets it! Do you play tennis?
 

brianmch

New User
Not to negate the juicing issue but the change in betting pattern could be due to Djoker's prior match depleting his energy.
 

lordlosh

Semi-Pro
Very good post. But if you say when Federer plays with variety he can beat Djokovic, why doesn't Federer then always play this way against Djokovic?
Because post Tony Roche Federer tactics has been awful with few exception. And not just against Djokovic, but also Nadal in many occasion before 2017, but Del Potro and Thiem as well.
But this ain't about Federer.
 

a10best

Hall of Fame
Yeah, change of pace had effect on role, but I still think if 1st serve was like 5% better Med had no chance. That with semi final took it's tool
There used to be Super Saturday where men play their semis and play finals on Sunday.. There were many 4 to 5 setters.
People need to stop this "he was tired" excuse. 2 days rest is enough for a 34 year old.
Does he need 3 or 4 days now?
Was Fed tired at 40-15 US Open 2011 or 40-15 on his serve at Wimbledon 2018? He was a 35 or 36 year old.
Was Murray so exhausted from his previous matches when he met Djokovic in the finals?
Let's stop it.
Speaking of Murray, you'd think as a tactical player he would've done the same as Med but Murray has zero serve, almost like Brooksby. Does that mean Brooksby will never have a big serve either if Murray couldn't ramp up to 120+?
 
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Rudiiii

Rookie
There used to be Super Saturday where men play their semis and play finals on Sunday.. There were many 4 to 5 setters.
People need to stop this "he was tired" excuse. 2 days rest is enough for a 34 year old.
Does he need 3 or 4 days now?
Was Fed tired at 40-15 US Open 2011 or 40-15 on his serve at Wimbledon 2018? He was a 35 or 36 year old.
Was Murray so exhausted from his previous matches when he met Djokovic in the finals?
Let's stop it.
Speaking of Murray, you'd think as a tactical player he would've done the same as Med but Murray has zero serve, almost like Brooksby. Does that mean Brooksby will never have a big serve either if Murray couldn't ramp up to 120+?
Mentally tired, he beat Zverev in five sets and took revenge after OG, he got drained literally. Med had easy draw till final,Djokovic had to beat three GS finalist to win USO. And what is this parallel with Murray? Pressure exposed worst side of Djokovic as he only had 54% of first serve, lowest in whole tournament. But still he had great realisation 80%, so I just said if he could put more balls in, he could have taken this match to 4, even 5 sets.Was pretty close in second set, but mental collapse in last couple of games costed him whole match. Med was better, deserved title, but 3:0 doesn't show what happend in match. Fed had two match points and choked bad, it wasn't up to Djokovic really in any of those situations.And last, Djokovic had spent 6 hours more on court, played second semi final so he had less time to prepare and he is 34 comeone, he needs more time to recover. Of course IMO fatigue played almost no role in this match
 
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a10best

Hall of Fame
Mentally tired, he beat Zverev in five sets and took revenge after OG, he got drained literally. Med had easy draw till final,Djokovic had to beat three GS finalist to win USO. And what is this parallel with Murray? Pressure exposed worst side of Djokovic as he only had 54% of first serve, lowest in whole tournament. But still he had great realisation 80%, so I just said if he could put more balls in, he could have taken this match to 4, even 5 sets.Was pretty close in second set, but mental collapse in last couple of games costed him whole match. Med was better, deserved title, but 3:0 doesn't show what happend in match. Fed had two match points and choked bad, it wasn't up to Djokovic really in any of those situations.And last, Djokovic had spent 6 hours more on court, played second semi final so he had less time to prepare and he is 34 comeone, he needs more time to recover. Of course IMO fatigue played almost no role in this match
So your logic and absolute outcome is if your GOAT spent less time on the court he would have won 100% of the time.
Always an excuse if he loses. Always. Biased fans never give credit. they look for excuses and will always find it.
That's a bad way to accept a loss is to create excuses. Djokovic said it himself that he can go 5 sets with anyone.
I don't search for excuses for Fed/Rafa/Thiem or Tsitsipas recent slam loss to Djokovic.
One could find some excuses but we don't need to. It is what it is. Man up, take it and move forward.
It's Win or Lose, period. Daniil won, Dkojokvic won the others. Done and over. Thanks Daniil.
 

urban

Legend
Med had shorter matches, but this is not his fault, but his own merit. And Djokovic had a lot of night matches, which are easier to tolerate than day matches in the heat. I still think, Zverev had better chances in a day match, like in Tokyo.
 

Rudiiii

Rookie
So your logic and absolute outcome is if your GOAT spent less time on the court he would have won 100% of the time.
Always an excuse if he loses. Always. Biased fans never give credit. they look for excuses and will always find it.
That's a bad way to accept a loss is to create excuses. Djokovic said it himself that he can go 5 sets with anyone.
I don't search for excuses for Fed/Rafa/Thiem or Tsitsipas recent slam loss to Djokovic.
One could find some excuses but we don't need to. It is what it is. Man up, take it and move forward.
It's Win or Lose, period. Daniil won, Dkojokvic won the others. Done and over. Thanks Daniil.
Omg last sentence literally said my opinion on fatigue, he got mentally crashed from pressure and five set thriller againts Zed, if Med played Zed in semi and Djokovic got Felix, final would be a lot different. Not saying Djokovic would win, just that match would be more competitive
 

Boom-Boom

Legend
There might be yet another reason why Med prevailed. Maybe they improved the drug testing process and finally caught Numero Uno out? Then the powers that be were not willing to shine the light on the transgression (because something like this coming out not only blights the offender - the entire sport will have to wear it), and cut a deal with the man: we say nothing, and you roll over in your next match. How else do you explain the betting on Med's win going through the roof, just a day before the match?
interesting, did the odds really changes the day before the final ?
 

Wurm

Semi-Pro
People need to stop this "he was tired" excuse. 2 days rest is enough for a 34 year old.
Does he need 3 or 4 days now?
Physically, for someone in the kind of shape he is with modern recovery methods? 2 days is plenty as long as there's been no repurcusions in terms of minor injuries, blisters and so forth.

What's more difficult is the toil of the stress involved and that's dependant on both the ebb and flow of the matches up to that point and whatever surrounding issues the player may be going through.

I thought the Prime commentators were totally over-egging Novak looking physically flat. I thought he looked physically little different to how he's looked the last couple of years but he looked emotionally strung out and on a razor's edge.

Speaking of Murray, you'd think as a tactical player he would've done the same as Med but Murray has zero serve, almost like Brooksby. Does that mean Brooksby will never have a big serve either if Murray couldn't ramp up to 120+?
The same Murray who regularly hit his first serve north of 130mph? Murray's problem wasn't not having a big first serve it was that serve was horribly unreliable and backed up by a second serve of questionable quality - not as bad as they hyperbole would suggest, mind.

Medvedev's doing things with his second serve Murray couldn't, or at least never dared to do, but then Medvdev's several inches taller.
 

Friedman Whip

Professional
Yeah, because you obviously understand nothing about tactics, rhythm/momentum, and obviously lack big time tennis knowledge. But i get it, its easier to write, x and y person suck, x and y person is a mug, x and y person is the greatest or mediocre and so.
It's hard to understand and read the game in details.
My thoughts early in the match were that Djokivic looked exactly like a guy whose legs were just not there that day. It also seemed obvious to him that he knew this and that his very unusual play during the rest of the match bore this out. Early in the first set I'm sure you noticed him taking hard slaps at both his quardriceps muscles as if to wake them up.
I wonder if you might give us some details on what your tennis experience and background are that give you the "big time tennis knowledge" that you have. Believe it or not some of the rest of us have what we consider to be some pretty broad knowledge of the game too. Since my opinion of the match happens to coincide with John McEnroe's, in this case I think I am going to feel safe sticking with my view that is supported by John's real big time tennis knowledge.
 
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Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
My thoughts early in the match were that Djokivic looked exactly like a guy whose legs were just not there that day. It also seemed obvious to him that he knew this and that his very unusual play during the rest of the match bore this out. Early in the first set I'm sure you noticed him taking hard slaps at both his quardriceps muscles as if to wake them up.
I wonder if you might give us some details on what your tennis experience and background are that give you the "big time tennis knowledge" that you have. Believe it or not some of the rest of us have what we consider to be some pretty broad knowledge of the game too. Since my opinion of the match happens to coincide with John McEnroe's, in this case I think I am going to feel safe sticking with my view that is supported by John's real big time tennis knowledge.
I think OP is on to something, but is being a complete jerk about it (the old 'I'm a genius, if you disagree with anything I just said, you're a halfwit and don't understand anything about tennis' - approach)

@lordlosh , I think you are spot on with more or less everything in your OP, but your mistake, imo, is you seem to think in black&white about the match. Or that you are so fond of your own analysis that you fail to see the other side of the coin

Your analysis of Medvedev's tactical approach and Novak playing subpar cause of nerves/stress/fatigue are not mutually exclusive. As is pointed out above, he was hitting his thighs early on. He also made a ton of errors at the onset of the first set. And he didn't get to 20 slams by being completely inable to make relevant adjustments to his opponent's tactics.

Did M's tactics make him play worse? Sure. Was he subpar to begin with, sure as well

In my humble opinion.
P. S. Sorry for the jerk remark but you have been extremely arrogant in your replies in this thread. Again in my humble opinion
 

Defcon

Hall of Fame
OP, how do you explain Djokovic netting a bunch of absolute floaters? (which was what Med's dropshots looked like yesterday)

Med was good and played smart, but let's not pretend Novak was close to his usual norm. You'd be generous to call it his B-game.
Stop making excuses, he lost. I could say that if Fed played at anywhere near 80% and didn't have a bp conversion of 1/1000000 he'd destroy everyone, and that would be objectively true, but that doesn't change the facts does it?

Nobody gives a damn if it was Novaks B or C or Z game - only his fans who want to make excuses.

Also people need to realize that if your fav player A did much worse than expected vs B, give some bloody credit to B, its not because A was 'injured' or 'not 100%' - this has been the standard excuse made by Rafa/Djok fans for the last 2 decades.
 

lordlosh

Semi-Pro
Last post summarized a lot of the post going around and so many, and many excuses of some of the biased fans.
I heard the so call Djokovic looks physically flat phrase so many times already. He absolutely always does that, when his opponent is on fire, and doesn't give him rhythm/momentum. He was playing "dead" so so many times. It's either a trick or body language.
But once he get an edge in the set, he is a different player.
Just a few mentioning of this. Million times against Federer, he does the same against Thiem in AO final, when Thiem start producing insane tennis, and we all know how that ended. Then he did exactly the same in Tsitsipas match.
He looks like he is set and done, and not even goes after some balls, and it's like he is injured or whatever, and the moment you drop your level, cause you say to yourself oh it's over, he punish you, and it's over, but for you.

Sorry to not believe this antics.
As far as the legs excuse i already bashed that out, as you can read in some of my previous post, but let me add, that this match was not a typical physical battle to say, he just didn't have the legs and fall shorts. It was nothing like that. It wasn't going left-right all over from Medvedev, so from what exactly his legs were gone? If the match was 4-5 hard set, make an excuse for Zverev match, but how in the blue hell you can make an excuse, where Medvedev was primary playing deep in the center part. :D
And the match was not a physical battle at all. Not so much long rallies as well. And Medvedev won the first set extremely fast.
And here is the perfect opposition as to why this excuse is exactly that - an excuse. Djokovic was super quick on Medvedev drop shots. He was always there, and he was there very early, because he was very quick on his feet. Every single drop shot and Djoko started super early, and he was super quick.

Chanwan, thanks for the praise, but then i'm exactly the opposite of what you are trying to make me. I got no problem going into the discussion, but what i see from few people here is just plan and simple excuses without any sensible explanation.
I'm all open to talk about the game, and what led to this result, as well if someone did not agree with some of my points, and how Medvedev produce this tactical masterpiece, but i'm yet to see someone to actually try to argue my points.
But you pretty much can't do it, simply because it was so so visible what his strategy was.

And BTW Djokovic had a cake walk till Zverev. And Zverev is a guy that never ever in his life has a win over top 10 player in a Slam. He usually go deep, because his draw are always super easy.
Don't make me laugh with Berrettini pls, cause this guy is terrible.
Djokovic previous matches was a joke as well.
And this was probably first Medvedev draw that turns out to be easy, he always have a nightmare draw. His draw at Wimbledon was absolutely insane, and Djoko still have a easy draw in there too.
And Djoko rested like a month after the Olympics, it's not like he was playing too much tournament before that.

Sorry but the fatigue excuses is just ridiculous, when he had so heavy Clay season, and played a tournament right before RG, and then have like 5 super hard matches, and at the end manage to win from 2-0 down, and was absolutely looking fresher than Tsitsipas in that final.
And just to mention English is not my native, and still have hard time with it. Got to put way more efforts into it. :D I'm very cool person usually.
 
Last post summarized a lot of the post going around and so many, and many excuses of some of the biased fans.
I heard the so call Djokovic looks physically flat phrase so many times already. He absolutely always does that, when his opponent is on fire, and doesn't give him rhythm/momentum. He was playing "dead" so so many times. It's either a trick or body language.
But once he get an edge in the set, he is a different player.
Just a few mentioning of this. Million times against Federer, he does the same against Thiem in AO final, when Thiem start producing insane tennis, and we all know how that ended. Then he did exactly the same in Tsitsipas match.
He looks like he is set and done, and not even goes after some balls, and it's like he is injured or whatever, and the moment you drop your level, cause you say to yourself oh it's over, he punish you, and it's over, but for you.

Sorry to not believe this antics.
As far as the legs excuse i already bashed that out, as you can read in some of my previous post, but let me add, that this match was not a typical physical battle to say, he just didn't have the legs and fall shorts. It was nothing like that. It wasn't going left-right all over from Medvedev, so from what exactly his legs were gone? If the match was 4-5 hard set, make an excuse for Zverev match, but how in the blue hell you can make an excuse, where Medvedev was primary playing deep in the center part. :D
And the match was not a physical battle at all. Not so much long rallies as well. And Medvedev won the first set extremely fast.
And here is the perfect opposition as to why this excuse is exactly that - an excuse. Djokovic was super quick on Medvedev drop shots.
He was always there, and he was there very early, because he was very quick on his feet. Every single drop shot and Djoko started super early, and he was super quick.

Chanwan, thanks for the praise, but then i'm exactly the opposite of what you are trying to make me. I got no problem going into the discussion, but what i see from few people here is just plan and simple excuses without any sensible explanation.
I'm all open to talk about the game, and what led to this result, as well if someone did not agree with some of my points, and how Medvedev produce this tactical masterpiece, but i'm yet to see someone to actually try to argue my points.
But you pretty much can't do it, simply because it was so so visible what his strategy was.

And BTW Djokovic had a cake walk till Zverev. And Zverev is a guy that never ever in his life has a win over top 10 player in a Slam. He usually go deep, because his draw are always super easy.
Don't make me laugh with Berrettini pls, cause this guy is terrible.
Djokovic previous matches was a joke as well.
And this was probably first Medvedev draw that turns out to be easy, he always have a nightmare draw. His draw at Wimbledon was absolutely insane, and Djoko still have a easy draw in there too.
And Djoko rested like a month after the Olympics, it's not like he was playing too much tournament before that.

Sorry but the fatigue excuses is just ridiculous, when he had so heavy Clay season, and played a tournament right before RG, and then have like 5 super hard matches, and at the end manage to win from 2-0 down, and was absolutely looking fresher than Tsitsipas in that final.
Missing the point right there, sorry pal. The long rallies were in fact crucial to Medvedev's success, being that he won 2/3 of them and got most of his point advantage there. Djokovic was unable to consistently hit hard and close to the lines - often made errors when he tried - and Medvedev retrieved anything less; the next option then would be to outlast him in extended rallies but, as you see, the opposite happened. That left coming into the net as the only solution but Djokovic wasn't great there either, or rather he started strong on the volley but got worse as the match went on. Lastly, on the dropshot part, most of those were rather airy so not surprising Djokovic was there in time but he missed plenty of makeable responses. The speed was there, the footwork wasn't. Mental fatigue more than physical I guess.
 

Defcon

Hall of Fame
Last post summarized a lot of the post going around and so many, and many excuses of some of the biased fans.
I heard the so call Djokovic looks physically flat phrase so many times already. He absolutely always does that, when his opponent is on fire, and doesn't give him rhythm/momentum. He was playing "dead" so so many times. It's either a trick or body language.
But once he get an edge in the set, he is a different player.
Just a few mentioning of this. Million times against Federer, he does the same against Thiem in AO final, when Thiem start producing insane tennis, and we all know how that ended. Then he did exactly the same in Tsitsipas match.
He looks like he is set and done, and not even goes after some balls, and it's like he is injured or whatever, and the moment you drop your level, cause you say to yourself oh it's over, he punish you, and it's over, but for you.

Sorry to not believe this antics.
As far as the legs excuse i already bashed that out, as you can read in some of my previous post, but let me add, that this match was not a typical physical battle to say, he just didn't have the legs and fall shorts. It was nothing like that. It wasn't going left-right all over from Medvedev, so from what exactly his legs were gone? If the match was 4-5 hard set, make an excuse for Zverev match, but how in the blue hell you can make an excuse, where Medvedev was primary playing deep in the center part. :D
And the match was not a physical battle at all. Not so much long rallies as well. And Medvedev won the first set extremely fast.
And here is the perfect opposition as to why this excuse is exactly that - an excuse. Djokovic was super quick on Medvedev drop shots. He was always there, and he was there very early, because he was very quick on his feet. Every single drop shot and Djoko started super early, and he was super quick.

Chanwan, thanks for the praise, but then i'm exactly the opposite of what you are trying to make me. I got no problem going into the discussion, but what i see from few people here is just plan and simple excuses without any sensible explanation.
I'm all open to talk about the game, and what led to this result, as well if someone did not agree with some of my points, and how Medvedev produce this tactical masterpiece, but i'm yet to see someone to actually try to argue my points.
But you pretty much can't do it, simply because it was so so visible what his strategy was.

And BTW Djokovic had a cake walk till Zverev. And Zverev is a guy that never ever in his life has a win over top 10 player in a Slam. He usually go deep, because his draw are always super easy.
Don't make me laugh with Berrettini pls, cause this guy is terrible.
Djokovic previous matches was a joke as well.
And this was probably first Medvedev draw that turns out to be easy, he always have a nightmare draw. His draw at Wimbledon was absolutely insane, and Djoko still have a easy draw in there too.
And Djoko rested like a month after the Olympics, it's not like he was playing too much tournament before that.

Sorry but the fatigue excuses is just ridiculous, when he had so heavy Clay season, and played a tournament right before RG, and then have like 5 super hard matches, and at the end manage to win from 2-0 down, and was absolutely looking fresher than Tsitsipas in that final.
And just to mention English is not my native, and still have hard time with it. Got to put way more efforts into it. :D I'm very cool person usually.
Ignore the haters and Djoker fanboys. He's well known for almost 'faking' it and acting like he's on crutches when things are going well then suddenly next set he's energizer bunny.

Djoker/Rafa fans will basically never give credit to anyone else, the only reason their player loses is because he was 'injured', and the only thing that unites them is a hatred of Fed and gloating over every defeat Fed has and never giving him credit. They are a pathetic, morose bunch who take the joy out of tennis. We haven't even talked about the various unsportsmanlike antics/tricks these guys use, how Djoker is anti-vaxx etc.

OP made a detailed, logical post analyzing the match and there are a 100 threads insulting Medvedev and making excuses for Djoker. I'm also sick of this whole 'crowd support'. The crowd didn't support him for very good reasons, because of his behavior. And now he acts like its the only thing that matters - more melodrama bs. Trust me he'd rather have the title and every single person boo him - he doesn't give a rats ass about what the crowd thinks its all PR.
 

RVAtennisaddict

Professional
I think that is it is very true that Djoker likes and even thrives off of pace. So less consistent pace and making him work is a good tactic.

I also think it is well established that hitting up the middle (deep) is sorta Djoker's kryptonite. Not really sure why, but I think he is the consumate counterpuncher. Being forced to be the aggressor is challenging for him.

Add to that more time on court (and a decade older, it makes a big difference) the stress of CYGS, the stress of sole leader in atp grandslam race, and the stress of his win over Sasha (who had just beaten after he choked or got hurt or whatever at the olympics). He was emotionally a little fragile... and it showed.

This doesn't take anything from Med. He played well, and had to beat Djoker. But this was not a Djoker A-game match (look at AO for that). And it is a great win for Med, congrats to him. I am fan of him and Thiem and to be honest Sasha. But I still think Djoker is the best player in the league right now. If he can stay physically fit and mentally fit, he should push the GrandSlam count up and possible even have another run at CYGS. That is assuming he doesn't melt down for a year like he did after winning the French the first time.
 

Friedman Whip

Professional
Last post summarized a lot of the post going around and so many, and many excuses of some of the biased fans.
I heard the so call Djokovic looks physically flat phrase so many times already. He absolutely always does that, when his opponent is on fire, and doesn't give him rhythm/momentum. He was playing "dead" so so many times. It's either a trick or body language.
But once he get an edge in the set, he is a different player.
Just a few mentioning of this. Million times against Federer, he does the same against Thiem in AO final, when Thiem start producing insane tennis, and we all know how that ended. Then he did exactly the same in Tsitsipas match.
He looks like he is set and done, and not even goes after some balls, and it's like he is injured or whatever, and the moment you drop your level, cause you say to yourself oh it's over, he punish you, and it's over, but for you.

Sorry to not believe this antics.
As far as the legs excuse i already bashed that out, as you can read in some of my previous post, but let me add, that this match was not a typical physical battle to say, he just didn't have the legs and fall shorts. It was nothing like that. It wasn't going left-right all over from Medvedev, so from what exactly his legs were gone? If the match was 4-5 hard set, make an excuse for Zverev match, but how in the blue hell you can make an excuse, where Medvedev was primary playing deep in the center part. :D
And the match was not a physical battle at all. Not so much long rallies as well. And Medvedev won the first set extremely fast.
And here is the perfect opposition as to why this excuse is exactly that - an excuse. Djokovic was super quick on Medvedev drop shots. He was always there, and he was there very early, because he was very quick on his feet. Every single drop shot and Djoko started super early, and he was super quick.

Chanwan, thanks for the praise, but then i'm exactly the opposite of what you are trying to make me. I got no problem going into the discussion, but what i see from few people here is just plan and simple excuses without any sensible explanation.
I'm all open to talk about the game, and what led to this result, as well if someone did not agree with some of my points, and how Medvedev produce this tactical masterpiece, but i'm yet to see someone to actually try to argue my points.
But you pretty much can't do it, simply because it was so so visible what his strategy was.

And BTW Djokovic had a cake walk till Zverev. And Zverev is a guy that never ever in his life has a win over top 10 player in a Slam. He usually go deep, because his draw are always super easy.
Don't make me laugh with Berrettini pls, cause this guy is terrible.
Djokovic previous matches was a joke as well.
And this was probably first Medvedev draw that turns out to be easy, he always have a nightmare draw. His draw at Wimbledon was absolutely insane, and Djoko still have a easy draw in there too.
And Djoko rested like a month after the Olympics, it's not like he was playing too much tournament before that.

Sorry but the fatigue excuses is just ridiculous, when he had so heavy Clay season, and played a tournament right before RG, and then have like 5 super hard matches, and at the end manage to win from 2-0 down, and was absolutely looking fresher than Tsitsipas in that final.
And just to mention English is not my native, and still have hard time with it. Got to put way more efforts into it. :D I'm very cool person usually.
What a fool believes he sees
No wise man has the power
To reason away
- The Doobie Brothers

-
 

a10best

Hall of Fame
Omg last sentence literally said my opinion on fatigue, he got mentally crashed from pressure and five set thriller againts Zed, if Med played Zed in semi and Djokovic got Felix, final would be a lot different. Not saying Djokovic would win, just that match would be more competitive
So we can infer that an 18 year old qualifier who won the women's final did not mentally crash but a 34-year old exp'd GOAT with the greatest tennis mind and skills ever did? You gotta stop this. W-L is what people see years from now. Not specualtive theories. I know the rams lost badly in the SuperBowl a few yrs ago yet the Saints got ripped off by an obvious past interference call in the NFC championship game. McGregor boxed pretty well against Mayweather but lost.
All that's shown in Wikipedia is the winner and loser and pn the USTA grounds is pnly who "won", no match summary or speculative theory.
 

a10best

Hall of Fame
Physically, for someone in the kind of shape he is with modern recovery methods? 2 days is plenty as long as there's been no repurcusions in terms of minor injuries, blisters and so forth.

What's more difficult is the toil of the stress involved and that's dependant on both the ebb and flow of the matches up to that point and whatever surrounding issues the player may be going through.

I thought the Prime commentators were totally over-egging Novak looking physically flat. I thought he looked physically little different to how he's looked the last couple of years but he looked emotionally strung out and on a razor's edge.
The commentators always look for excuses for their faves; Serena, Federer, Djkokovic, and Nadal. He's looked worse and still won final's matches.
At some points these greats will begin to lose to a better player. It's just common sense as one ages. Our media has a lack of that in a lot of topics nowadays.

The same Murray who regularly hit his first serve north of 130mph? Murray's problem wasn't not having a big first serve it was that serve was horribly unreliable and backed up by a second serve of questionable quality - not as bad as they hyperbole would suggest, mind.

Medvedev's doing things with his second serve Murray couldn't, or at least never dared to do, but then Medvdev's several inches taller.
Correct, I meant his second serve. They were below 90 a lot. I honestly never pictured Murray serving above 120 and getting free points in the later rounds.
It's nice that Murray's back. Now if Stan can do the same and DelPo's self-proclaimed return to the courts next year too.
People thought Djokovic's last 3 players were tough wait til next year with veterans coming back and NextGen more confident (except for Fritz)
 
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Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Novak was plumb tuckered out after Zverev so a match where both Medvedev and Dkokovic are fresh will be interesting.
 

mental midget

Hall of Fame
Med reminds me a bit on Mecir, with his ability to change pace and manoever the other guy around with deceptive play and good angles. He has of course a way better serve of course, The weak serve was Mecirs downfall, otherwise he would have won on all surfaces, probably RG, Wim and USO.
agree. and i think OP's analysis was pretty spot-on btw.
 

mental midget

Hall of Fame
Yeah some people just don't understand the game, and that's it. You don't just win the first 3 GS title, and knocking in the door of history, and suddenly out of nowhere you play like a completely s****.
You are playing as much as your opponents allow you.
Yes there is matches, where the one player, have a great day, and other just have terrible, and not deliver, but this match was very, very different from that.
But you to understand the tactical part of the game, and to have an eye for it.

Without to insult someone, a lot of people here have no clue, they just pump hard, and claiming he is the greatest, or he is the greatest, he destroy x and y, he is the best, and all that kind of b.c. posts all around.
No one even comment why x or y result happen, what was the reason for it.

I was shocked to see no one comment, on all the point i mention, and especially the VERY obviously ones, like the very fast serving on Medvedev side, as well as Medvedev constantly playing deep ball in the center part. This was SO SO obviously a huge tactical plan, not just put the ball back in play.

Where was the Djokovic usual angles? Where was the Djokovic usable use of his opponent pace to math him ? Nowhere to be seen, cause Medvedev didn't give him any of that. He didn't gave him any space to play his angle, he didn't have him any pace, so Djokovic to use it.

Medvedev just totally outshine Djokovic tactically. That was a flawless tactical performance. If people can't see that, their tennis knowledge is just lacking.
completely agree. i think you touched on all the choices medvedev made that added up to a brilliant strategy. he also hit behind novak frequently--not necessarily to wrong-foot him every time, but i think in part because it was often an 'unusual' shot selection with a wide open court where the player would normally hit. novak didn't seem to have a plan for that second ball to the same corner, and often wound up hitting a shot medvedev could truly attack.
 

jarko111

Hall of Fame
I see many threads, many opinion, but not a single one from someone who obviously pay attention to the details and have an eye for it. Here it is folks:

Medvedev was absolutely prefect tactically and his gameplan left Djokovic speechless.
- Firstable Medvedev didn't gave Djokovic any rhythm/momentum.

2 - Medvedev played smart and didn't try to crack the ball, but on the contrary return it regularly at different speed and in different ways, 3-4 times flat balls, and then topspin with high bouncing, and this ruined Joko's rhythm.

3 - You don't beat Djokovic with a shootout(yeah it can happen, but you got to be perfect, and it's harder), but by giving him no rhythm/momentum at all, and you have to use diversity. It might not look like that from the outside, but Medvedev definitely had played with great variety in his game.

4 - It's obvious from people that have an eye, that Djoko prefer/likes/love to eat his opponent pace, and use them against them, but Medvedev was genius and didn't let that happen. Purely and simple Medvedev didn't use much pace on his shots(when he does it, he was finishing the ball, not try to pressure him, but score a clear winner, which is the right thing), didn't push the ball hard, and try to outshoot Djoko, he was actually playing with Novak pace, and actually make Novak use force for his shots, which obviously going to waste you more energy. And we all know Djoko have hard schedule this year.

5 - Another very important aspect of Medvedev tactical gameplan was to not allow Djokovic to use his other strength sides, like using the angles, which he is so so good at. Medvedev was playing very deep balls in the center part, which makes it incredible hard for Djoko to make angles and move Medvedev left-right on the court. This also kills Djoko rhythm totally. Djoko doesn't have much options, he couldn't outpace Medvedev with high pace stronger shots, he can't create angles, and can' get into a decent rhythm.

6 - Medvedev did a good job tactically how to return Djokovic Serve. He was 5 meters away from the line, and did a good job returning most of Djoko serve back in play. Djoko didn't get an easy points, and was put under pressure in most of his serve game. This help big time with disrupting your opponents serve, and to make him miss more first serve, by going for more with it.

7 - Medvedev serve, it obviously Medvedev did his homework how to serve and get the most of it, against a brilliant returner like Djoko. This pretty much allow him to not feel much pressure on his own game, but actually put more back on Novak.

8 - Another very, very important aspect with the no rhythm/momentum was the insane fast pace that Medvedev impose. This is why i have talking how important is the time between the points, and what a cheat this thing is.
Medvedev was serving lightning fast. Zero time for rest, zero time for recovery, fast serving games, and your opponent is back on serve, more pressure on him. This allow for not turning the match into a physical battle, and turning the match into a war. And this also help Medvedev to pretty much not thinking on what's going on. You are not overthinking, playing to your tactics and instintcs and not overdo it.

And finally Medvedev also show great nerves of steel, but this is absolutely necessary to win the big titles. If you don't have one, just work with sport psychologist, understand what makes you cooldown in the tense moments, and even how to breath properly, and to let the stress out. There is million techniques out there, and breathing is probably the easiest an the simplest.

Djoko looked like that, because of Medvedev genius tactical gameplan. Medvedev game may not have the beauty of technique, but it's a brilliant in tactical way.
And this is what i wanna see way more from the newcomers and actual tactical gameplan, and how to actually win matches. Not i will try to outshot him, and when it's not happening, they have no Plan B, and keep repeating the same, and keep losing.
In the first couple games went by Djokovic looked pale af. Like he’d seen a ghost. He was out of fuel.
 

lordlosh

Semi-Pro
I don't want to answer x and y person individually losing my precious time with people that can't accept the reality, and all they do is making excuse after excuse, which from me is pathetic. I can make all the excuses in the world for why Medvedev lost AO against Djokovic.
Djoko draw was garbage easy till Zverev. It's his fault that he loses sets to players, that he shouldn't lose and manage to not waste energy along the way.
But this just an excuse, which i already destroy multiple time with how fast he was for the drop shots.

Anyway i decide to write, because Medvedev coach - Gilles Cervara, was interviewed and he pretty much confirm every single one of my points.
In my country there is an article with him, a cut one, but still he said that they have great tactics, and they know Djokovic adapt very well to his opponent play, and that they need to do various different stuffs, and Medvedev to be able to feel and to feel the moment to change if he see that Djoko adapts to his game.
This one one of my points in my first post, that it may not looks like that from the side, but Medvedev played with great variety.
And Cervara also said that that Medvedev used a lot of deep center shots, to not allow Djokovic to play much angles, and to move around the court, which is his strong side, and as well to be able to move Medvedev left-right.

Another thing of my point, which i cover exactly as what was Medvedev tactics and why they used it.
I don't like to praise myself, but i think Gilles Cervara comments just show you what an eye i have for details, tactical approach, and why Djoko was so out of his game, thanks to Medvedev superior tactics !!!
So you can be as bias as you like, that doesn't change the fact that Medvedev totally destroy him tactically !!! Pure masterclass !!!
 

Diablo XP

Rookie
OP analysis is very, very, good. Some of the sarcasm and arrogance dilutes this some, but the analysis still stands. Varying pace of shot by Med was a huge factor.
 

beltsman

Legend
My thoughts early in the match were that Djokivic looked exactly like a guy whose legs were just not there that day. It also seemed obvious to him that he knew this and that his very unusual play during the rest of the match bore this out. Early in the first set I'm sure you noticed him taking hard slaps at both his quardriceps muscles as if to wake them up.
I wonder if you might give us some details on what your tennis experience and background are that give you the "big time tennis knowledge" that you have. Believe it or not some of the rest of us have what we consider to be some pretty broad knowledge of the game too. Since my opinion of the match happens to coincide with John McEnroe's, in this case I think I am going to feel safe sticking with my view that is supported by John's real big time tennis knowledge.
Ah, so you fell for the patented Djokovic play acting.
 

beltsman

Legend
Last post summarized a lot of the post going around and so many, and many excuses of some of the biased fans.
I heard the so call Djokovic looks physically flat phrase so many times already. He absolutely always does that, when his opponent is on fire, and doesn't give him rhythm/momentum. He was playing "dead" so so many times. It's either a trick or body language.
But once he get an edge in the set, he is a different player.
Just a few mentioning of this. Million times against Federer, he does the same against Thiem in AO final, when Thiem start producing insane tennis, and we all know how that ended. Then he did exactly the same in Tsitsipas match.
He looks like he is set and done, and not even goes after some balls, and it's like he is injured or whatever, and the moment you drop your level, cause you say to yourself oh it's over, he punish you, and it's over, but for you.

Sorry to not believe this antics.
As far as the legs excuse i already bashed that out, as you can read in some of my previous post, but let me add, that this match was not a typical physical battle to say, he just didn't have the legs and fall shorts. It was nothing like that. It wasn't going left-right all over from Medvedev, so from what exactly his legs were gone? If the match was 4-5 hard set, make an excuse for Zverev match, but how in the blue hell you can make an excuse, where Medvedev was primary playing deep in the center part. :D
And the match was not a physical battle at all. Not so much long rallies as well. And Medvedev won the first set extremely fast.
And here is the perfect opposition as to why this excuse is exactly that - an excuse. Djokovic was super quick on Medvedev drop shots. He was always there, and he was there very early, because he was very quick on his feet. Every single drop shot and Djoko started super early, and he was super quick.

Chanwan, thanks for the praise, but then i'm exactly the opposite of what you are trying to make me. I got no problem going into the discussion, but what i see from few people here is just plan and simple excuses without any sensible explanation.
I'm all open to talk about the game, and what led to this result, as well if someone did not agree with some of my points, and how Medvedev produce this tactical masterpiece, but i'm yet to see someone to actually try to argue my points.
But you pretty much can't do it, simply because it was so so visible what his strategy was.

And BTW Djokovic had a cake walk till Zverev. And Zverev is a guy that never ever in his life has a win over top 10 player in a Slam. He usually go deep, because his draw are always super easy.
Don't make me laugh with Berrettini pls, cause this guy is terrible.
Djokovic previous matches was a joke as well.
And this was probably first Medvedev draw that turns out to be easy, he always have a nightmare draw. His draw at Wimbledon was absolutely insane, and Djoko still have a easy draw in there too.
And Djoko rested like a month after the Olympics, it's not like he was playing too much tournament before that.

Sorry but the fatigue excuses is just ridiculous, when he had so heavy Clay season, and played a tournament right before RG, and then have like 5 super hard matches, and at the end manage to win from 2-0 down, and was absolutely looking fresher than Tsitsipas in that final.
And just to mention English is not my native, and still have hard time with it. Got to put way more efforts into it. :D I'm very cool person usually.
10/10 post
 

Madinolf

Rookie
Meddy played incredible, in the first set he served like Karlovic. But he also had a much easier draw and had less pressure.

I think Djokovic will come for revenge.
 
Great thread OP. There's some awesome discussion in the comments on the tactics too, these type of posts are the best of TTW imo.

For me, the most important things mentioned were the blistering pace of play and deep center balls.

Medvedev was playing so, so fast on his service games and his serves (both 1st and 2nd) were tremendous. Most service games of his were done in 2 minutes, which immediately brought on a ton of pressure to Novak. This with him ahead all match since he got the break in the very opening game. So much mental and physical pressure with how fast Medvedev was playing. I think this, along with those deep center shots, was a very key part of breaking Djokovic's rhythm.

Just imagine it from Novak's side - you're down all match, you spend 8-10 minutes battling out a very difficult hold, then your 6'6" giant opponent smashes 4 serves in a row you have trouble reading, and just like that in barely over 1 minute you're back struggling on your serve again.

Great match from Medvedev, I was very impressed by how he rose to the occasion
 

lordlosh

Semi-Pro
BTW i have question for some of you. Do you think if it wasn't for Tsitsipas drama with the toilet/changeroom breaks, Djoko would have gone for break at some point, after the first or second set?
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
BTW i have question for some of you. Do you think if it wasn't for Tsitsipas drama with the toilet/changeroom breaks, Djoko would have gone for break at some point, after the first or second set?
I think that's very likely yes, given past behaviour (inside sources from Sissy's camp told the Tennis podcast that Sissy took a page out of the Djokovic playbook after the FO).
I doubt that Medv would have been as rattled as Sissy was at the FO though
 
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