The reason no younger ATG has broken through?

fox

Semi-Pro
Yes, <30 crowd still has one slam combined. We could have another 10+ pages of excuse-making, it doesn't change that.

Another fact is, Murray and Wawrinka who are no ATGs have been able to beat younger versions of the Djokodal in the finals to win their first slams. Similar goes for those weak era clowns you and your ilk crap so much on, Hewitt and Safin were able to beat Pete Sampras in their maiden slam finals, in his home slam.
How you want to persuade Djokovic fans to understand something that happened 15 years before they started watching tennis.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
You spent all that time demanding I list the achievements of guys who started winning at 24-25 then don't reply when I supply you with a detailed answer?

It's almost as if you didn't like the factual answer because it completely contradicted your ill-informed but very loudly proclaimed bias.

It's a funny old game.
1. some of us have life outside this forum

2. do you really expect an answer to that word salad? to not name it garbage?
ok, let me share a few thoughts after reading the first names:
- can you please tell to all of us, what was the ranking of players like Tilden, Borotra, in a ranking system that was universally accepted and comprised all top players, you know, something like the ATP ranking is today?
- when you name players from the period of time when modern GS tournaments were split into amateur & pro tournaments, are you suggesting that Nole's competition is playing at an amateur level?
cause otherwise, I can't see how you can compare the period of time when some players would be refused the right to participate in the amateur / pro tournament for example, this is without taking other reasons for which players were not allowed to enter and compete in one tournament or another

before expecting and actually demanding an answer, why don't you bother to provide a post that can actually be discussed? instead of throwing a word salad based on a lousy google search
 

Spencer Gore

Hall of Fame
1. some of us have life outside this forum

2. do you really expect an answer to that word salad? to not name it garbage?
ok, let me share a few thoughts after reading the first names:
- can you please tell to all of us, what was the ranking of players like Tilden, Borotra, in a ranking system that was universally accepted and comprised all top players, you know, something like the ATP ranking is today?
- when you name players from the period of time when modern GS tournaments were split into amateur & pro tournaments, are you suggesting that Nole's competition is playing at an amateur level?
cause otherwise, I can't see how you can compare the period of time when some players would be refused the right to participate in the amateur / pro tournament for example, this is without taking other reasons for which players were not allowed to enter and compete in one tournament or another

before expecting and actually demanding an answer, why don't you bother to provide a post that can actually be discussed? instead of throwing a word salad based on a lousy google search
You got it wrong. You've merely exposed you have no understanding of tennis history. Contrary to your claim, many players have won multiple slams at 24+, including several legends of the game.

Next time you try for a "gotcha", do your research first. It will save you embarrassment.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
You got it wrong. You've merely exposed you have no understanding of tennis history. Contrary to your claim, many players have won multiple slams at 24+, including several legends of the game.

Next time you try for a "gotcha", do your research first. It will save you embarrassment.
sure buddy
just one question, to confirm how precisely did I expose myself
can you please tell to all of us, what was the ranking of players like Tilden, Borotra, in a ranking system that was universally accepted and comprised all top players, you know, something like the ATP ranking is today?
 

Spencer Gore

Hall of Fame
sure buddy
just one question, to confirm how precisely did I expose myself
can you please tell to all of us, what was the ranking of players like Tilden, Borotra, in a ranking system that was universally accepted and comprised all top players, you know, something like the ATP ranking is today?
No point trying desperately to shift the goalposts. Plenty of ATGs started winning at 24+.

Try educating yourself on tennis history before asking silly "gotcha" questions. Then the forum can have some decent debates.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
No point trying desperately to shift the goalposts. Plenty of ATGs started winning at 24+.

Try educating yourself on tennis history before asking silly "gotcha" questions. Then the forum can have some decent debates.
lol
why don't you help me to educate myself?
I am desperately needing to know what is the ranking history of Tilden, Borotra in a ranking system comparable to ATP ranking, otherwise I feel uneducated, and this leads to the sentiment of weak era letting one player to vulture titles and weeks at #1
 

Spencer Gore

Hall of Fame
why don't you help me to educate myself?
I already have.

Players aged 24+ who won multiple slams:


27 Tilden (10 majors)

28 Wawrinka (3 majors)

24 Kodes (3 majors)

25 Borotra (4 majors)

24 Rafter (2 majors)

24 Crawford (6 majors)

27 L Doherty (6 majors)

25 R Doherty (4 majors)

26 Nastase (2 majors)

24 S Smith (2 majors)

24 Perry (8 majors)

29 Seixas (2 majors)

30 Drobny (3 majors)

24 Vilas (4 majors)

25 Von Cramm (2 majors)

25 Kramer (3 majors)

25 Cochet (7 majors)

29 Brookes (3 majors)

25 A Murray (3 majors)

32 A Gore (3 majors)

27 Parker (4 majors)

25 Fraser (3 majors)

25 A Ashe (3 majors)

27 Stolle (2 majors)

24 Patterson (3 majors)

28 Schroeder (2 majors)

26 B Patty (2 majors)

24 Lendl (8 majors)

25 Pietrangeli (2 majors)

24 Emerson (12 majors)
 
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blablavla

G.O.A.T.
I already have.

Players aged 24+ who won multiple slams:


27 Tilden (10 majors)

28 Wawrinka (3 majors)

24 Kodes (3 majors)

25 Borotra (4 majors)

24 Rafter (2 majors)

24 Crawford (6 majors)

27 L Doherty (6 majors)

25 R Doherty (4 majors)

26 Nastase (2 majors)

24 S Smith (2 majors)

24 Perry (8 majors)

29 Seixas (2 majors)

30 Drobny (3 majors)

24 Vilas (4 majors)

25 Von Cramm (2 majors)

25 Kramer (3 majors)

25 Cochet (7 majors)

29 Brookes (3 majors)

25 A Murray (3 majors)

32 A Gore (3 majors)

27 Parker (4 majors)

25 Fraser (3 majors)

25 A Ashe (3 majors)

27 Stolle (2 majors)

24 Patterson (3 majors)

28 Schroeder (2 majors)

26 Newcombe (5 majors)

26 B Patty (2 majors)

24 Lendl (8 majors)

25 Pietrangeli (2 majors)

24 Emerson (12 majors)
sorry pal, I don't see the ranking of Tilden and Borotra in this word salad
 

Spencer Gore

Hall of Fame
sorry pal, I don't see the ranking of Tilden and Borotra in this word salad
It's not "word salad". It's a list of facts. "Word salad is a phrase with a very specific meaning. I've educated you on tennis, I'm not going to educate you in English. Get your school teacher to do that.

Next time you presume players 24+ can't win multiple slams and become ATGs you'll recall it and save embarrassment. No need to thank me.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
It's not "word salad". It's a list of facts. "Word salad is a phrase with a very specific meaning. I've educated you on tennis, I'm not going to educate you in English. Get your school teacher to do that.

Next time you presume players 24+ can't win multiple slams and become ATGs you'll recall it and save embarrassment. No need to thank me.
it's a word salad that has little or nothing to do with the starting point of the discussion
next time you want to have a discussion, please do bother to not throw garbage into it, and then expect to have a meaningful discussion :-D
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
The problem with Fed fans, who sharply criticize Next Gen here, is that they take examples from the past and ignore the context. They use the argument "Safin / Hewitt managed to beat Sampras" and with this argument they denounce Next Gen players and Thiem that they could not beat Djokovic and Nadal in the grandslam final. Well, but Safin, Hewitt and other young players from the past who have been able to beat old and experienced champions in big matches had fast surfaces at their disposal, so the punch technique was enough for them to succeed, they didn't have to build the extra physical condition and endurance, which require today's form of tennis due to slower surfaces. Another thing is that Big 3 is taking advantage of advances in sports medicine and rehabilitation, thanks to which they have remained in winning forms well after 30. This luxury was not had by Sampras, Lendl and other champions from the past.
Slowing the surfaces and advances in sports medicine and rehabilitation are the two main reasons why 20s tennis players have failed to break the dominance of 30s tennis players. The claim that Next Gen are worse tennis players than their predecessors is short-sighted, ignoring the change in conditions on the tennis scene.
Meanwhile, it didn't take a ton of effort from Medvedev to win his first GS against a terrible Djokovic.

So much for players playing at a high level consistently in their 30's, too much for Next Gen wah wah.
 
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mike danny

Bionic Poster
In my opinion, those are the main reasons:

1) They have Djokovic, Nadal and Federer in their way
2) The generation born between 1989-1995 simply wasn’t talented enough to produce an ATG
3) The generation born 1996 is still too young to be ATG-material. You need to win at least 5 slams, reach couple more finals, win a lot of tournaments and have the #1 ranking at some point to be considered an ATG. Nowadays, you don’t do all these things aged 23 or something.
Maybe someone like Tsitsipas will be an ATG but we don‘t know it yet. He is still only 22 years old, why shouldn’t it be possible for him to have a career with 5-7 slam titles? But you can‘t expect him to be an ATG (with 7 slam titles) at age 22. So these players can still break through as an ATG in the coming years.
If they win 6-7 slams in the upcoming terrible era, it won't prove anything. They will be more accomplished than their predecessors, but better is an entirely different matter.
 

aldeayeah

Legend
Meanwhile, it didn't take a ton of effort from Medvedev to win his first GS against a terrible Djokovic.

So much for players play at a high level consistently in their 30's, too much for Next Gen wah wah.
Don't say that. As the OP proved, what Med did was possibly the THOUGHTEST achievement in modern tennis. ATG-hood looms now ;)
 

fox

Semi-Pro
I mean if Cameron Norrie can win IW over Zverev, Tsitsipas, Medvedev then what kind of competition they are..
 

fox

Semi-Pro
Tsitsipas has been arse since RG, Med is in a post-slam lull, Zverev, uh... is Zverev.
Yeah like in every other tournament out there. Tsitsipas is doing well only on clay. Medvedev is the best and I agree it might be a bit of post slam shape but it is clear the competition is not too hard to beat.
 

Fiero425

Hall of Fame
Atleast they were not world number 86, 48, 54 etc when they played the slam final

Sors let's not go there lol
Well it's a little embarrassing when we analyze Connors' early wins over an ancient Ken Rosewall, straight-setting the old guy in both Wimbledon and USO Finals! :laughing: :-D:D
 

Fiero425

Hall of Fame
I have high hopes for Alcaraz and Musetti. They are already making a reputation for themselves.
Alcaraz took care of Murray in straight sets at the Erste Bank Open in Vienna; 3 & 4 in a lengthy match with sustained, long points that gassed the old guy! :laughing: :-D :giggle:
 
I have high hopes for Alcaraz and Musetti. They are already making a reputation for themselves.
Agreed, they have a level of mental toughness that I haven’t seen from any of their next gen predecessors bar Medvedev.

On a related note, this conversation seems to be neglecting mental strength as a skill. While the Zverev, Tsitsipas, and Medvedev gen is in their physical primes now, they are still mental midgets. Alcatraz has shown a higher mental level already than Tsitsipas and Medvedev have shown their entire careers. It’s a connundrum: the tour used to be littered with players with technical deficiencies, like Roddick and his backhand, who won in spite of their limitations through their strengths and mental toughness. Now the tour is littered with technically perfect players who are mentally fragile and lose in spite of their lack of exploitable weaknesses.

It’s astonishing really. The average physical and technical level of the tour has gone up the past two decades, while the mental level has dropped. Take Taitsipas for example. Technically he doesn’t have any exploitable weaknesses, but he creates them through poor decision making and shot selection.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
Agreed, they have a level of mental toughness that I haven’t seen from any of their next gen predecessors bar Medvedev.

On a related note, this conversation seems to be neglecting mental strength as a skill. While the Zverev, Tsitsipas, and Medvedev gen is in their physical primes now, they are still mental midgets. Alcatraz has shown a higher mental level already than Tsitsipas and Medvedev have shown their entire careers. It’s a connundrum: the tour used to be littered with players with technical deficiencies, like Roddick and his backhand, who won in spite of their limitations through their strengths and mental toughness. Now the tour is littered with technically perfect players who are mentally fragile and lose in spite of their lack of exploitable weaknesses.

It’s astonishing really. The average physical and technical level of the tour has gone up the past two decades, while the mental level has dropped. Take Taitsipas for example. Technically he doesn’t have any exploitable weaknesses, but he creates them through poor decision making and shot selection.
I think when you have a lot of players who have won based on their skills, they don't have to develop the mental toughness as much.

Look at the RG final this year...Tsitsipas would probably have won even losing the 4th set against lesser opponents. He played well enough that even though his head let him down, he still had chances to win. Or the USO last year...Zverev fights Thiem, and they both stumble. One of them had to pull through, and it happened to be Timmy.

On top of that, they've gotten rid of 5-set M1000s. How much scar tissue did Rafa build up in the '05 Miami final against Fed? There's no way to recreate that sort of pressure in a 3-set match. It taxes you physically and mentally. You can put in the reps for the physical side...
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
On top of that, they've gotten rid of 5-set M1000s. How much scar tissue did Rafa build up in the '05 Miami final against Fed? There's no way to recreate that sort of pressure in a 3-set match. It taxes you physically and mentally. You can put in the reps for the physical side...
Really interesting to wonder how many masters and WTF would the Next Gen have if they still had BO5 finals.
 

aldeayeah

Legend
Take Taitsipas for example. Technically he doesn’t have any exploitable weaknesses, but he creates them through poor decision making and shot selection.
He's over-relying on topspin to the point I'm not sure he can reliably flatten his strokes/penetrate the court anymore, and his returning is erratic at best.
 

socallefty

Legend
Now the tour is littered with technically perfect players who are mentally fragile and lose in spite of their lack of exploitable weaknesses.
Apart from the Big 3, who are the young players that are technically perfect? I’ve been bemoaning along with other coaches I know that none of the young players are technically perfect very unlike the Big 3. Thiem is probably the one getting closer to that definition now that he has shortened his strokes.

Technical problems
Zverev - 2nd serve and toss consistency. Otherwise pretty good game for all surfaces. Can be passive mentally and play too defensively from the baseline
Tsitsipas - long-take back strokes unsuitable for fast courts, bad DTL-BH and general inability to flatten out BH without making errors on fast courts, bad BH slice, poor BH returns, falls away to the left on slice making it difficult to hit effective serve+1 shots or approach the net on fast court, does not like low contact point which makes him unsuitable for grass
Medvedev - awkward technique without much topspin (lower 10% for rpm in top 100) which makes him dependant on hitting deep or near the lines all the time which is difficult to do consistently on slow surfaces, does not like high contact point like on clay, rhythm can be disrupted by use of slice shots, still weak at finishing at net, slice is not great.
Shapovalov - every shot has a lot of variance in terms of body position/swing depending on opponent‘s shot leading to wildly inconsistent game under pressure
Berrettini - weak topspin BH, movement not great
Rublev - no finesse or change of pace in rallies. Hits only a hard ball and that’s a tough strategy to win a lot on slow courts
Sinner - weak serve. Seems to be improving this and has good potential
Alacaraz - weak serve. Footwork seems bad on defense as he doesn’t seem to anticipate well on fast courts. Can he improve his serve and anticipation?
Hurkacz and Rudd seem to have somewhat decent technique without huge flaws and might have significant upside. Lloyd Harris is a wildcard who might improve a lot too.

Do you also see any players who are technically proficient enough to hit the ball on the rise from close to the baseline and put pressure on their opponents constantly like Federer and Djokovic? Also, how many of them slide well on hard courts and clay like Djokovic which is a big part of why he plays outstanding defense from close to the baseline and makes the court smaller. I have the exact opposite opinion that all these players struggle to win close matches against strong opponents across all surfaces because they have technical flaws that can be exploited or which fall apart under stress.
 
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TimHenmanATG

Hall of Fame
When preening oneself on Instagram satisfies a reward mechanism, then it's no wonder that a lot of these players will be lax with their specialised sporting ambition.
 
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