The saddest (insert your favorite player) loss and why...

MichaelNadal said:
I felt sorry for him last year. 2013, no, because Nadal should have wrapped it up in 4 lol.
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But ultimately he didn't and Novak fought back so well to extend the match(it's not like Nadal served four double faults to just hand it to him) and went down 9-7 in the 5th despite playing some of his best ever clay court tennis and at a level that would have beaten anyone else that day which is why us Nole fans were so gutted at the time. Surely you can see that? :|
 
Djokovic2011 said:
But ultimately he didn't and Novak fought back so well to extend the match(it's not like Nadal served four double faults to just hand it to him) and went down 9-7 in the 5th despite playing some of his best ever clay court tennis and at a level that would have beaten anyone else that day which is why us Nole fans were so gutted at the time. Surely you can see that? :|
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He broke Nadal early in the 5th, and didn't hold onto it. You make it seem like Nadal was crying on court or something. He did what he always does, which is raise his level when it mattered most and won. (while hitting 22 winners in the final set alone). All Novak could do was watch them pass. The score was close yes, but if you watch the match, Nadal was in control for 80% of it.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
But ultimately he didn't and Novak fought back so well to extend the match(it's not like Nadal served four double faults to just hand it to him) and went down 9-7 in the 5th despite playing some of his best ever clay court tennis and at a level that would have beaten anyone else that day which is why us Nole fans were so gutted at the time. Surely you can see that? :|
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Not to mention...

Guys like Borg, Lendl and Kuerten etc...
 
One match isn't enough for me to rate the best of Soderling over the best of Djokovic. I need to see the play sustained over a tournament, and even in one match I'm not sure Soderling is better than Djokovic, who has beaten Nadal numerous times on clay—in short: lack of evidence + occam's razor = Soderling is inferior. Soderling's best efforts on clay was to reach 2 RG finals and to lose both finals in straight sets to two clearly superior players on the surface. No shame in it, but Federer fans do the opposite with Soderling's performance to the Nadal fans.
 
Nathaniel_Near said:
One match isn't enough for me to rate Soderling over Djokovic. I need to see the play sustained over a tournament, and even in one match I'm not sure Soderling is better than Djokovic, who has beaten Nadal numerous times on clay. Soderling's best efforts on clay was to reach 2 RG finals and to lose both finals in straight sets to two clearly superior players on the surface. No shame in it, but Federer fans do the opposite with Soderling's performance to the Nadal fans.
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Depends what you mean by peak then. In terms of big wins at the FO Soderling has the edge clearly beating both Nadal and Federer. The manner in which he did it is another feather in his cap.

Djokovic has yet to play his best tennis at the FO, if you were to say his best level in the clay masters is better than Soderling's at the FO you might be right. Though I would argue there's certainly not >> between them - more like >= at best IMO.
 
The >> didn't mean anything, only that I see Djokovic as better. I wasn't being scientific there.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
You think all those guys would have beaten him in 2013?! :shock:
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Probably...Djokovic wasn't that great. He went away at times in that match. I find it slightly surprising I have to justify the likes of Borg and Kuerten in top form beating Djokovic at the FO. If Nadal didn't choke he would of gone down in 4.

Djokovic was probably better in 2011 than 2013 anyway, he at least didn't fade away in the 3rd set there like he did in 2013.
 
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NatF said:
Probably...Djokovic wasn't that great. He went away at times in that match. I find it slightly surprising I have to justify the likes of Borg and Kuerten in top form beating Djokovic at the FO. If Nadal didn't joke he would of gone down in 4.

Djokovic was probably better in 2011 than 2013 anyway, he at least didn't fade away in the 3rd set there like he did in 2013.
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I wasn't talking about any player at his peak, I was talking about players at their very best in that year alone(2013). Keep up NatF.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
I wasn't talking about any player at his peak, I was talking about players at their very best in that year alone(2013). Keep up NatF.
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Yes - And that is what I responding to. Bit sad that you have to build up that match to be some uber display of peak tennis just to justify why poor Novak as a 0 in the FO column.
 
NatF said:
Yes - And that is what I responding to. Bit sad that you have to build up that match to be some uber display of peak tennis just to justify why poor Novak as a 0 in the FO column.
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I was simply saying how well I thought he played in that match and that no-one else but Nadal would've beaten him that day. Nothing more, nothing less. Got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? :?
 
I agree that Nole's efforts in that match were outstanding and that he produced a very high level of play. He was close to toppling even TheRafa.

...Damn his dominance at Roland Garros.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
I was simply saying how well I thought he played in that match and that no-one else but Nadal would've beaten him that day. Nothing more, nothing less. Got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? :?
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We're on the same page now...

You're the one who said "Keep up Natf" the fact I was indeed lagging behind is not the issue ( :lol: ). If anyone came across as on the wrong side of the bed it would be you ;)

Regardless I did get annoyed by someone right before I replied so maybe that was just it :lol: I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I agree no one else in 2013 would of beaten Djokovic that day, but that's not saying much when the next best clay courter that year was Ferrer.
 
Some people really hate to give any credit to Djokovic on these boards. Makes me even more delighted that he's achieved as much as he has over the years.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
Some people really hate to give any credit to Djokovic on these boards. Makes me even more delighted that he's achieved as much as he has over the years.
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Yeah, but you probably think even I underrate Djokovic chronically.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
Some people really hate to give any credit to Djokovic on these boards. Makes me even more delighted that he's achieved as much as he has over the years.
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Perhaps I do. What credit do you think I should give him?

I personally think the FO 2013 SF is a bit overrated, the quality at times was sky high but there were deep valleys where Djokovic was really quite poor. If you disagree there's fair enough, a lot of people think it's the best clay match ever you wouldn't be on your own.
 
NatF said:
Perhaps I do. What credit do you think I should give him?

I personally think the FO 2013 SF is a bit overrated, the quality at times was sky high but there were deep valleys where Djokovic was really quite poor. If you disagree there's fair enough, a lot of people think it's the best clay match ever you wouldn't be on your own.
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No "perhaps" about it babes. :? How about beating Nadal in 4 clay Masters finals? No credit for that?
 
Djokovic2011 said:
Only on fast HC Nathaniel and I wouldn't say chronically.
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Djokovic is not that good on fast HC. He's consistent but often falls short on peak performance required to get the W. He's comparable to Murray and Nadal on faster surface types. Things like bounce, outdoor-indoor come into things, of course.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=525023

You think it's literally complete bonkers that Djokovic doesn't have more US Open titles than Nadal. I think it makes complete sense.

Perhaps both will end up with 2 there when it's all said and done which would seem like a fair outcome given the levels I've seen them reach there.

Nadal has some excellent results on faster outdoor HC such as the Beijing Olympics win (beat Nole too), 2 US Opens and he's won Cincinnati which Djokovic has failed to do. Nadal even produced a period of play on HC that saw him sweep the US series, which hadn't been done since what... Roddick in 2003 was it?
 
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Nathaniel_Near said:
Djokovic is not that good on fast HC. He's consistent but often falls short on peak performance required to get the W. He's comparable to Murray and Nadal on faster surface types. Things like bounce, outdoor-indoor come into things, of course.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=525023

You think it's literally complete bonkers that Djokovic doesn't have more US Open titles than Nadal. I think it makes complete sense.

Perhaps both will end up with 2 there when it's all said and done which would seem like a fair outcome given the levels I've seen them reach there.

Nadal has some excellent results on faster outdoor HC such as the Beijing Olympics win (beat Nole too), 2 US Opens and he's won Cincinnati which Djokovic has failed to do.
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I don't think it's completely bonkers but Djokovic is clearly the better HC player which is why I believe he should have more USO titles than Nadal. Hopefully this will be remedied by the end of this year. It already should have been.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
I don't think it's completely bonkers but Djokovic is clearly the better HC player which is why I believe he should have more USO titles than Nadal. Hopefully this will be remedied by the end of this year. It already should have been.
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And that's your problem... you say HC player and miss the finer details. Of course Djokovic is the "clearly better HC player"—nobody disputes it. When you dissect his game on different types of HC, it soon becomes clear that he's utterly outstanding on slower HC and merely very good on faster HC with results more comparable to Murray or Nadal than Federer. Outside of speed: if the court has a deader and more predictable response, Nole owns; if it's indoor, Nole owns.
 
On topic, I'd say US Open 2011 for Nadal. Had he won it, he'd have 3 titles there. Also no US Open title for Djokovic then.
 
Backspin1183 said:
On topic, I'd say US Open 2011 for Nadal. Had he won it, he'd have 3 titles there.
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How so exactly. Is this another one of those funny "history would have certainly been unaltered" viewpoints?

No ifs in sport, remember.
 
Backspin1183 said:
This thread is about the "ifs", NN. I apologize for having an opinion.
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The point is that Nadal winning in 2011 doesn't guarantee what we know actually has transpired in 2012-2015... that's all. Save your apologies, it makes you look weak. Show me strength.
 
Nathaniel_Near said:
The point is that Nadal winning in 2011 doesn't guarantee what we know actually has transpired in 2012-2015... that's all. Save your apologies, it makes you look weak. Show me strength.
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Oh c'mon, we are talking about one particular loss of our favourite player. A lot of Nadal fans chose Wimbledon 2007 or AO 2012 but 2011 US Open for me. Nothing to do with reality, NN.

EDIt: Please read between the lines re-apologies.
 
Nathaniel_Near said:
And that's your problem... you say HC player and miss the finer details. Of course Djokovic is the "clearly better HC player"—nobody disputes it. When you dissect his game on different types of HC, it soon becomes clear that he's utterly outstanding on slower HC and merely very good on faster HC with results more comparable to Murray or Nadal than Federer. Outside of speed: if the court has a deader and more predictable response, Nole owns; if it's indoor, Nole owns.
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OK, cards on the table. Nole's game looks so much better(in terms of style and movement) and is more suitable to HC tennis than Nadal's, imo of course. That's why it displeases me so much that Nadal has won a HC tournament more times than him. There, I said it.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
OK, cards on the table. Nole's game looks so much better(in terms of style and movement) and is more suitable to HC tennis than Nadal's, imo of course. That's why it displeases me so much that Nadal has won a HC tournament more times than him. There, I said it.
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I do basically agree with you if I'm being entirely honest, but I can't ignore the results and "effects" that stare me in the face. It does seem some what p3rverse that Nadal has that over Djokovic in the same manner it seems p3rverse that Djokovic has Wimbledon over Murray and that it's funny he has two titles there and none at RG.

Sometimes how a style looks doesn't match up to the true reality and effectiveness of the style.
 
Backspin1183 said:
Oh c'mon, we are talking about one particular loss of our favourite player. A lot of Nadal fans chose Wimbledon 2007 or AO 2012 but 2011 US Open for me. Nothing to do with reality, NN.

EDIt: Please read between the lines re-apologies.
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I did, BTW. Doesn't stop me using the ammunition. Save your weak apologies.

And Oh c'mon what? If a result changes it doesn't guarantee that the future remains the same. Nadal winning in 2011 gives him a guaranteed 2 US Open titles but one can only speculate about the third or if Djokovic gets one or not in 2012-2014. Priorities and motivations and momentums change.
 
Maybe Nadal would have had 4 US Open titles if he'd won in 2011, now imagine that one Djo2011.
 
Nathaniel_Near said:
I do basically agree with you if I'm being entirely honest, but I can't ignore the results and "effects" that stare me in the face. It does seem some what p3rverse that Nadal has that over Djokovic in the same manner it seems p3rverse that Djokovic has Wimbledon over Murray and that it's funny he has two titles there and none at RG.

Sometimes how a style looks doesn't match up to the true reality and effectiveness of the style.
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Yep, that's exactly what I mean Nathaniel. If someone said they think Murray should have won more Wimbledons than Djokovic because of his game on grass(compared to Nole's sometimes clumsy movement for instance) you certainly wouldn't hear me disagreeing with them.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
Yep, that's exactly what I mean Nathaniel. If someone said they think Murray should have won more Wimbledons than Djokovic because of his game on grass(compared to Nole's sometimes clumsy movement for instance) you certainly wouldn't hear me disagreeing with them.
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But I would disagree.. now.. in hindsight. In hindsight I realise that I didn't place enough importance on the serve and return at Wimbledon and spent too much time looking at Murray's natural ground-game on the surface and natural varieties and movement. The truth is that Nole has made his movement work on the grass somehow, has a lot of finesse himself and has a brilliant serve+return combination overall which is reliable on a match to match basis. Overall they have similar ability there. Overall, Djokovic and Nadal have similar ability on faster HC. It seems wrong but Nadal's 2013 run for example was quite emphatic and doesn't happen by accident. He was simply superb...
 
Djokovic2011 said:
How so Nathaniel when he's only won it twice? :???:
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Exactly, he'd have won it twice. Beyond that is speculation so we can't state he would have had 3 US Opens... but we can state that had he won in 2011 he may have still won in 2013, and may have won in another year too... or may have not win in any of the following years. He doesn't automatically keep his 2013 title with unaltered history as a sudden result of actually winning the 2011 US Open. Perhaps he carries that momentum and wins the 2012 AO... well obviously we just don't know. The only guaranteed thing if Nadal had won the 2011 final is that he'd have won a minimum of 2 US Opens.
 
Nathaniel_Near said:
But I would disagree.. now.. in hindsight. In hindsight I realise that I didn't place enough importance on the serve and return at Wimbledon and spent too much time looking at Murray's natural ground-game on the surface and natural varieties and movement. The truth is that Nole has made his movement work on the grass somehow, has a lot of finesse himself and has a brilliant serve+return combination overall which is reliable on a match to match basis. Overall they have similar ability there. Overall, Djokovic and Nadal have similar ability on faster HC. It seems wrong but Nadal's 2013 run for example was quite emphatic and doesn't happen by accident. He was simply superb...
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He was superb but there's just something about his game that always makes me view him as primarily a clay courter. I know, I know - he adapted his game so that he'd one day win majors on grass and HC as well as clay but I'm sorry, that's just how I feel. It's bad enough seeing 10 metre high forehands on clay, but seeing them on fast hard courts is very unpalatable to me. :|
 
Djokovic2011 said:
He was superb but there's just something about his game that always makes me view him as primarily a clay courter. I know, I know - he adapted his game so that he'd one day win majors on grass and HC as well as clay but I'm sorry, that's just how I feel. It's bad enough seeing 10 metre high forehands on clay, but seeing them on fast hard courts is very unpalatable to me. :|
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He's just that good. Maybe the same can be said about Murray-Djokovic on grass. Djokovic is just that good a player so he's won more at Wimbledon. Nadal's paradigm isn't exactly optimal for HC but he's just so damned good. The reason that might make little sense to you is that you truly believe that overall Djokovic is the better player than Nadal (I'm assuming with the viewpoint that you expect results to eventually vindicate your viewpoint).
 
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