The Shape Of Things To Come: Denis Shapovalov!

prairiegirl

Hall of Fame
Denis almost always loses his tie breakers. He never shows a real strategy in them. It's a glaring weakness in his game. But, that being said, the kid is 18 and I really do believe in him. He started off poor then really picked up his game. Shows great maturity out there.
 

Marius_Hancu

Talk Tennis Guru
They stole the TB from him.
And he helped with errors. Most on FH, not BH, people:
Just watch the game at 1-1 in the 2nd.
 
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Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
They stole the TB from him.
And he helped with errors. Most on FH, not BH, people:
Just watch the game at 1-1 in the 2nd.
Line judge should have seen it, but he had every chance to make the smash nonetheless. It's almost a serve with the hold court at your disposal, he had to hit. No excuse for netting that.
 

Max G.

Legend
Anyway, this match seems to be running away from him... Cuevas too solid and up a break in the second. Shapo's forehand misfiring just too many times.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Anyway, this match seems to be running away from him... Cuevas too solid and up a break in the second. Shapo's forehand misfiring just too many times.
It does indeed. A bit of not taking his chances, being unlucky on the lob and Cuevas being rock solid and just plain better on the big points
 

Marius_Hancu

Talk Tennis Guru
BH UEs: Cuevas 9, Shapovalov 20
FH UEs: Cuevas 9, Shapovalov 16
Pretty much the same, but the FH ones were more damaging, IMO, as they happened in situations where he needed to close.

Yes, Cuevas was too solid. Good lesson.
 
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rushhr

Rookie
FAA is gonna surpass him very soon if he doesn't get his backhand and return game in check

All cuevas did was look crazy and hit deep to denis' backhand all match and waited for the unforced errors
 

ruerooo

Legend
Honestly I think it's also very easy to assume it's all tactical and coaching instead of a lack of talent.
He also has some technique issues. Someone was talking the other day about some of the finishing angles of his groundstrokes the other day as compared to, say, Roger's, where he was overworking ihs shoulder.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
He also has some technique issues. Someone was talking the other day about some of the finishing angles of his groundstrokes the other day as compared to, say, Roger's, where he was overworking ihs shoulder.
I think his technique makes him prone to being inconsistent and a bit wild. Even his forehand swing is so much less compact and clean than a Fed (someone mentioned this earlier in this thread as well), or for that matter Rublev who I'm watching now.

So you end up with some shanking and some wild shots when he gets robbed of time. But it also allows him to take those great big cuts he has, though, so it's always a trade-off.

There little doubt he has some great pieces that he will eventually put together though; no cause for worry yet.
 

Standaa

G.O.A.T.
Yeah, because you know what he is capable of. Young Skywalker still has much to learn...needs to find Yoda.
I don’t like this Luke/Darth Vader comparision.. it makes Fed look like the bad guy who needs a lesser version of himself to help him turn back to the light side :D:D
 
D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
I don’t like this Luke/Darth Vader comparision.. it makes Fed look like the bad guy who needs a lesser version of himself to help him turn back to the light side :D:D
Vader dominated the galaxy, Federer dominated tennis. Federer comes out to Darth Vader's music at USO. Darth Vader was the chosen one of the Force, Federer the chosen one in tennis. Seems legit to me. :D:D

Luke didn't peak until post ROTJ, he was only starting to peak.
 

Standaa

G.O.A.T.
Vader dominated the galaxy, Federer dominated tennis. Federer comes out to Darth Vader's music at USO. Darth Vader was the chosen one of the Force, Federer the chosen one in tennis. Seems legit to me. :D:D

Luke didn't peak until post ROTJ, he was only starting to peak.
Federer still dominates tennis... but I admit the analogy is interesting, guess that Federer vs. Raonic in Wimbledon 2016 was when he burned his whole body, then recovered and came back stronger in 2017, the same year Shapo emerged on the scene :eek: If 2017 was the New Hope, Shapo will lose his hand in WTF at the end of this year... It all makes sense now!
 

Max G.

Legend
So disappointing to see Denis go down so early in this tournament. Maybe the publicity and pressure has gotten to him, because he doesn't seem able to play freely and fearlessly anymore.
Or he's just not high enough level to consistently beat top guys.

It's a masters event. In the second round he's facing a guy ranked 34. There's no easy matches.

He's not a real 'top 30' player yet, even though he has individual matches where he might play like one on occasion.
 

-NN-

G.O.A.T.
Compared to, say, where say is the GOAT is a tall order. I think he has a nice game. I really couldn't say who I think will have the better career, DS or FAA. FAA I think has better movement but no real weapons where DS can turn that serve into a weapon.

I thought it was interesting that at last years USO they played on courts side by side, twice. I guess the USO schedulers wanted to split the "I want to go see the next star play" crowd. :mad:
I think FAA's weaponry is scary considering his age and development. Some of his forehands are awesome, and he's capable of imposing an aggressive baseline game on his opponents, pouring out the winners win or lose.
 

Tshooter

G.O.A.T.
I think FAA's weaponry is scary considering his age and development. Some of his forehands are awesome, and he's capable of imposing an aggressive baseline game on his opponents, pouring out the winners win or lose.
I don't see the big weapon but we'll see. I do think he and DS are two of the better prospects for sure.

Besides I already deleted that part. It added nothing to the conversation. :)

Who do you think will have the better career: DS or FAA ?
 

-NN-

G.O.A.T.
I don't see the big weapon but we'll see. I do think he and DS are two of the better prospects for sure.

Besides I already deleted that part. It added nothing to the conversation. :)

Who do you think will have the better career: DS or FAA ?
Both will win Slams, FAA to have the better career. Great times for Canada incoming over the next decade+.
 

ruerooo

Legend
Compared to, say, where say is the GOAT is a tall order.
It's not a question of to whom the comparison is - body mechanics are body mechanics. If you're doing something that could potentially end in a career-ending injury, you fix it before it does some damage. Especially if it might be the thing that contributes to you crashing out tournament after tournament till your fans yell and scream and squirm around and take it out on their fellow fans because they're frustrated and can't figure out what your problem is.
 

AMGF

Hall of Fame
I saw them both play at the national center a couple years back when they were both pretty unknown to the general population.

I thought back then that FAA was better. DS had his big break in Montreal and US Open last season and it is an amazing opportunity for him as he can get direct entries and gain many points. FAA didn’t have his break yet. But ultimately, if he stays healthy, I think he’ll have a better carreer.

DS is spectacular, but FAA is efficient.
 

rushhr

Rookie
Nike has confirmed that Denis is already wearing a youth sized hat.

The fact that FAA doesn't need a hat is telling.
 

prairiegirl

Hall of Fame
Or he's just not high enough level to consistently beat top guys.

It's a masters event. In the second round he's facing a guy ranked 34. There's no easy matches.

He's not a real 'top 30' player yet, even though he has individual matches where he might play like one on occasion.
To me, this is the best analysis. None of his matches have been easy. In fact, the match I watched (streamed online) the announcer said just that. He said that Denis has been quite unlucky in that he has faced high ranking players very early on, and it's difficult to break through. I'm not disappointed in him, although I would have liked to see him go at least three sets. I do think he's been quite spotty, but then he's only 18, and he's got a long way to go. Very few players at 18 could do what he does. That being said, I do see a lot of work needs to be done on his BH and ROS. Those are the 2 weak areas I see. He has been a bit more emotional in matches lately, but I also put that down to youth and a strong competitive spirit. He needs to check that, and make sure he doesn't become one of those players who can't come from behind.
 

ultradr

Legend
This swing kid plays basically 90s style.
Hes gotta learn to play consistent tennis, the standard of last 15 years, laid by Federer, Nadal and Djokovic, IMHO.
 
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nikdom

Guest
This swing kid plays basically 90s style.
Hes gotta learn to play consistent tennis, the standard of last 15 years, laid by Federer, Nadal and Djokovic, IMHO.
He will in time, hopefully.

Its always interesting to see the evolution of a Top player. While no two players have the same journey, I think it is easier for a player with flair to add consistency than for a consistent player to add variety.

From what little I’ve seen, Shapo has plenty of game but lacks consistency while Zverev is already more consistent but I don’t actually see a more complete game in him.

We could have a Fed-Hewitt like situation all over again with these two.
 

Badabing888

Hall of Fame
He was very much all or nothing in this match. Needs to find that middle ground on the days he’s not playing well or when his opponent are playing solidly like Cuevas did yesteray.

Also he really needs to stop the whole bouncing the ball between his legs before he serves. It’s really annoying. Isner does this as well.
 

ultradr

Legend
He will in time, hopefully.

Its always interesting to see the evolution of a Top player. While no two players have the same journey, I think it is easier for a player with flair to add consistency than for a consistent player to add variety.

From what little I’ve seen, Shapo has plenty of game but lacks consistency while Zverev is already more consistent but I don’t actually see a more complete game in him.

We could have a Fed-Hewitt like situation all over again with these two.
yeah, he will have to but the game foundation, this kid appears to be coming from, seems to be different from most players of last ~15 years or so.
this kid has athelticism based game with long loopy swings for all strokes.
they are not compact modern swings.
And the way he keeps trying to hit winners off 1st serve returns.
I have not seen this type of game since Agassi and Sampras.
I have not seen young up and coming players with this type of game base last 15 years or so.
 
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nikdom

Guest
yeah, he will have to but the game foundation, this kid appears to be coming from, seems to be different from most players of last ~15 years or so.
this kid has athelticism based game with long loopy swings for all strokes.
they are not compact modern swings.
And the way he keeps trying to hit winners off 1st serve returns.
I have not seen this type of game since Agassi and Sampras.
I have not seen young up and coming players with this type of game base last 15 years or so.
Soderling had long loopy strokes but he was able to generate power; overall Shapo is a very good talent and I like the aggresssive, net rushing approach in his game.

He’ll have to eventually find a balance of baseline consistency and aggressiveness. Movement, timing etc should hopefully improve with match experience.

All depends on how committed he is to improving. A good coach should help. Who is the coach right now? Someone like Magnus Larson will be a great fit.
 

prairiegirl

Hall of Fame
So disappointing to see Denis go down so early in this tournament. Maybe the publicity and pressure has gotten to him, because he doesn't seem able to play freely and fearlessly anymore.
Ok, here is my very long response, LOL. I have said these things so many times because they are facts. I don't deal in conjecture or possibilities. I am more prone to the reality of what is.

1. Denis is only 18. Yes, I know that in tennis there have been a few (very few) amazing teenagers. But, that is the exception and not the norm. His body hasn't even finished growing yet. This is one of the reasons for his inconsistency. Of course he makes unforced errors, tends to go for things too much, and makes frustrating mistakes. It's called the LEARNING CURVE. It is nothing more than that. It is not a lack of talent or commitment. By all reports and reviews, Denis has an incredible work ethic, but it will take time. My goodness, people are defending Thiem for not winning anything important at 24, yet you're berating Denis for not doing anything at 18.
2. Again, I've said this one before. The body's neurological system does not finish its development until our early twenties. Even the brain isn't fully developed until we're about 21 or 22. Therefore, the brain-body connection isn't yet complete. So, he's got a ways to go. His body wants to do things, but the brain may not yet be fully cooperating.
3. HE'S A TEENAGER FFS. He's playing against experienced men. It's not complicated folks. He's got a long learning curve ahead of him. He had a big burst last summer, and now he's consolidating that. But, it will take time. He says he wants to win his first title this year. I'm not sure he's ready. It might not happen. Why? Because he is still developing. Seriously, I believe teenagers shouldn't be allowed on the ATP tour. It puts unnecessary pressure on them physically and emotionally.
4. He is NOT in any way shape or form upset about pressure or publicity. That's nonsense. In fact, you can see in interviews, that he has a ton of great support around him, and he deals with it very well. Sometimes he's completely placid out there, and other times he's more emotional. But, that's age and inexperience.
5. In a very good interview I saw towards the end of last year (don't remember where so don't ask), he said that he struggles with the sheer raw power he can generate because it's often difficult to control, and that is why he often makes mistakes. Martin, his coach, weighed in, and said that he's still growing, and these things take time. Makes sense.
I could go on about these points for a lengthier time but it's unnecessary. These ridiculous posts that ask: "what's wrong with Denis?" "why isn't Denis winning more?" "what's happened to Denis?" I find them utterly and completely exhausting and frustrating because they're meaningless. He seems to me to be doing exactly as I expected - winning some and losing some. He plays great sometimes, and less well other times. I won't predict the future because I'm not a psychic, and no one else here is either.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
It's not defensive at all. I was merely asking if this is the best you have to offer? It's a comment that says nothing meaningful or even contributes to the discussion.
It sure is.

He/she gave a valid opinion (and expounded on it in post #2291) that Denis doesn't have very compact strokes and that this may cause some problems in this consistency-dominated era. You, on the other hand, merely wrote it off by calling the opinion "ridiculous," without offering a single explanation of just why it is ridiculous — that's not adding anything to the discussion.
 

Sparlingo

Hall of Fame
Ok, here is my very long response, LOL. I have said these things so many times because they are facts. I don't deal in conjecture or possibilities. I am more prone to the reality of what is.

1. Denis is only 18. Yes, I know that in tennis there have been a few (very few) amazing teenagers. But, that is the exception and not the norm. His body hasn't even finished growing yet. This is one of the reasons for his inconsistency. Of course he makes unforced errors, tends to go for things too much, and makes frustrating mistakes. It's called the LEARNING CURVE. It is nothing more than that. It is not a lack of talent or commitment. By all reports and reviews, Denis has an incredible work ethic, but it will take time. My goodness, people are defending Thiem for not winning anything important at 24, yet you're berating Denis for not doing anything at 18.
2. Again, I've said this one before. The body's neurological system does not finish its development until our early twenties. Even the brain isn't fully developed until we're about 21 or 22. Therefore, the brain-body connection isn't yet complete. So, he's got a ways to go. His body wants to do things, but the brain may not yet be fully cooperating.
3. HE'S A TEENAGER FFS. He's playing against experienced men. It's not complicated folks. He's got a long learning curve ahead of him. He had a big burst last summer, and now he's consolidating that. But, it will take time. He says he wants to win his first title this year. I'm not sure he's ready. It might not happen. Why? Because he is still developing. Seriously, I believe teenagers shouldn't be allowed on the ATP tour. It puts unnecessary pressure on them physically and emotionally.
4. He is NOT in any way shape or form upset about pressure or publicity. That's nonsense. In fact, you can see in interviews, that he has a ton of great support around him, and he deals with it very well. Sometimes he's completely placid out there, and other times he's more emotional. But, that's age and inexperience.
5. In a very good interview I saw towards the end of last year (don't remember where so don't ask), he said that he struggles with the sheer raw power he can generate because it's often difficult to control, and that is why he often makes mistakes. Martin, his coach, weighed in, and said that he's still growing, and these things take time. Makes sense.
I could go on about these points for a lengthier time but it's unnecessary. These ridiculous posts that ask: "what's wrong with Denis?" "why isn't Denis winning more?" "what's happened to Denis?" I find them utterly and completely exhausting and frustrating because they're meaningless. He seems to me to be doing exactly as I expected - winning some and losing some. He plays great sometimes, and less well other times. I won't predict the future because I'm not a psychic, and no one else here is either.
I'm a Shapo fan, follow his every shot and it will be a roller coaster ride with him, but I have complete faith. I'm thinking he and Felix will get to the same level but all Shapo fans should get their blood pressure medication now because they will need it. Felix's rise will be more measured but also, naturally, streaky. With Felix he will go on streaks for a while playing steady tennis. With Shapo no one will know whether Good-Shapo or Bad-Shapo will show up at every match, for a while.
 

prairiegirl

Hall of Fame
I'm a Shapo fan, follow his every shot and it will be a roller coaster ride with him, but I have complete faith. I'm thinking he and Felix will get to the same level but all Shapo fans should get their blood pressure medication now because they will need it. Felix's rise will be more measured but also, naturally, streaky. With Felix he will go on streaks for a while playing steady tennis. With Shapo no one will know whether Good-Shapo or Bad-Shapo will show up at every match, for a while.
I pretty much agree. But, it's not "good/bad" per se. I wouldn't put it in such simplistic terms, but rather, which brain-body connection is showing up, LOL. As a teenager, he's going to be up and down, and I expect FAA will be the same.
 
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