The silly Weak Era debate solved

zagor said:
Maybe, he is certainly up there. Keep in mind however, that there are just no great pressure fighters in the heavyweight division in this era.

Fury doesn't have power to hurt Usyk and Joshua and Dubois are limited technically. The last undisputed champ Lennox punched harder than even Joshua and was a better technical fighter than Fury, atleast the best version of Lennox (under Manny Steward).

I think if anything Usyk showcases how past ATGs would have done very well against these giant heavy plodders, how important skill, feints, work rate and footwork are.
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Lol totally fixed fight for the Ukranian due to the Russia issue. Waste of time tbh and boxing is totally corrupt. Fury is clearly far better.
 
messiahrobins said:
Lol totally fixed fight for the Ukranian due to the Russia issue. Waste of time tbh and boxing is totally corrupt. Fury is clearly far better.
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Nah, Usyk won, wasn't as wide as the cards probably (I'd score it 115-113 in favour of Usyk) but he won. And I was rooting for Tyson because I wanted a trilogy.

Fury has to fight out of his comfort zone against Usyk because in that fight he's not the one who is the better boxer, better counter-puncher, better footwork, with better workrate which is otherwise always the case when it comes to any other opponent still (even at age of 36).

There's not much Fury can do with the match-up being as it is right now. He can't do a Chisora and back his chin against Usyk and just walk him down because as we've seen he can get rocked by Usyk's power and well because that's not really his natural style (despite all the Kronk school talk). He can't do what he usually does which is fight outside and use clinch to drain the other guy's energy because Usyk is just too slick and I'd say deceptively strong, watch both fights and see how many times he got out of the clinch or just avoided it. I think Fury came prepared both times and really fought the best he possibly could (if anything, he deserves praise for it) but the combination of all the things Usyk brings to the table in the match-up is just too much for him. He can't match Usyk's stamina, he can't match his workrate, he can't clinch him down, he doesn't have enough power to get him out of there or the chin to walk through Usyk's shots.

His only path to victory would have been to roll the dice completely and just go for it but honestly, that would just end in him being stopped, he was very close to being stopped in the first fight regardless. I don't think Fury has ATG chin, he has ATG power of recovery (possibly the greatest I've seen) and those are two different things, plus I also think Wilder trilogy definitely took some physicality and punch resistance out of him. Usyk IMO has a much better chin, his most underrated attribute, I've seen him take a flush from AJ who hits like a truck and only get knackered when other guys would have been seriously hurt or just went to sleep.

Now given the wide scorecards in the UD victory, maybe the judges would have given it to Usyk regardless but in these two fights, there was no need for the fix. They were close fights and Fury was his toughest opponent arguably but Usyk clearly won both of them IMO.

Do I think Usyk is getting a bit overrated as a heavyweight? Sure, there are a number of ATG heavyweights I would have favored against him peak for peak (Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis for one, Holyfield was also a monster) but in this generation, he has proven to be the best. Tyson Fury could have (and IMO would have) been the best if he lived an athlete's life and didn't put his body through so much abuse over the years but it is what it is, the guy had his share of personal demons and it took its toll on him. He never really fulfilled his potential.

@RS Tell me if you disagree. I'm certainly no expert, just a casual fan of the sport.
 
zagor said:
Nah, Usyk won, wasn't as wide as the cards probably (I'd score it 115-113 in favour of Usyk) but he won. And I was rooting for Tyson because I wanted a trilogy.

Fury has to fight out of his comfort zone against Usyk because in that fight he's not the one who is the better boxer, better counter-puncher, better footwork, with better workrate which is otherwise always the case when it comes to any other opponent still (even at age of 36).

There's not much Fury can do with the match-up being as it is right now. He can't do a Chisora and back his chin against Usyk and just walk him down because as we've seen he can get rocked by Usyk's power and well because that's not really his natural style (despite all the Kronk school talk). He can't do what he usually does which is fight outside and use clinch to drain the other guy's energy because Usyk is just too slick and I'd say deceptively strong, watch both fights and see how many times he got out of the clinch or just avoided it. I think Fury came prepared both times and really fought the best he possibly could (if anything, he deserves praise for it) but the combination of all the things Usyk brings to the table in the match-up is just too much for him. He can't match Usyk's stamina, he can't match his workrate, he can't clinch him down, he doesn't have enough power to get him out of there or the chin to walk through Usyk's shots.

His only path to victory would have been to roll the dice completely and just go for it but honestly, that would just end in him being stopped, he was very close to being stopped in the first fight regardless. I don't think Fury has ATG chin, he has ATG power of recovery (possibly the greatest I've seen) and those are two different things, plus I also think Wilder trilogy definitely took some physicality and punch resistance out of him. Usyk IMO has a much better chin, his most underrated attribute, I've seen him take a flush from AJ who hits like a truck and only get knackered when other guys would have been seriously hurt or just went to sleep.

Now given the wide scorecards in the UD victory, maybe the judges would have given it to Usyk regardless but in these two fights, there was no need for the fix. They were close fights and Fury was his toughest opponent arguably but Usyk clearly won both of them IMO.

Do I think Usyk is getting a bit overrated as a heavyweight? Sure, there are a number of ATG heavyweights I would have favored against him peak for peak (Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis for one, Holyfield was also a monster) but in this generation, he has proven to be the best. Tyson Fury could have (and IMO would have) been the best if he lived an athlete's life and didn't put his body through so much abuse over the years but it is what it is, the guy had his share of personal demons and it took its toll on him. He never really fulfilled his potential.

@RS Tell me if you disagree. I'm certainly no expert, just a casual fan of the sport.
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I am casual as well. Well I mean I know a good amount but it's nothing compared to boxing hardnuts with like thousands old fight films and it's mainly consisted 90% of it being about heavyweights alone.

Not sure how Uysk fairs vs all the other "great" or "ATG" heavyweights but I think the Uysk vs Holyfield both at crusierweight and heavyweight and then next Vitali Kiltschko and Riddick Bowe would be the match up I want to see for Uysk most.

I pretty much agree regarding pretty much all else in regards to Uysk and Fury. Wilder's sleghammer punches probably effected Fury's punch resistence.
 
Hitman said:
I don't think he has anything left to prove, but if he wants to, then all the more power to him.
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Heavyweights are monsters if he fights too long it will start get harder and harder every fight. But he still is in great shape at 37 so more power to him.

If I was him I would do one more year so that's 1-2 more fights but that's irrelevant I guess.
 
RS said:
Heavyweights are monsters if he fights too long it will start get harder and harder every fight. But he still is in great shape at 37 so more power to him.

If I was him I would do one more year so that's 1-2 more fights but that's irrelevant I guess.
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True. I do think he has a one or two more solid showings left in him, but it really all depends on what he wants. Honestly, he can walk away now, his legacy is secure.
 
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Hitman said:
True. I do think he has a one or two more solid showings left in him, but it really all depends on what he wants. Honestly, he can walk away now, his legacy is secure.
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No doubt. The crazy money is probably a small temptation as well.
 
Poisoned Slice said:
Yeah, definitely a weak era for heavyweight boxing. Signed.

My score was 119-109 Usyk.
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You don't enjoy heavyweight any time recently?

What I don't like is they don't fight quite as much as they should and how much money and contracts are involved but that's the way it is. But other era's were not perfect either in the 90s we never got Tyson vs Bowe Holmes vs Foreman Lewis vs Bowe Tyson vs Foreman and multiple other big fights either.
 
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Spencer Gore said:
I don't know why this debate re-occurs every few months. It has long since been resolved.

Strong Era: Three ATG previous slam winners, each capable of winning multiple slams

Average Era: Two ATG previous winners, each capable of winning multiple slams

Weak Era: One ATG previous slam winner capable of winning multiple slams

Apply as necessary to each tennis period.
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What's ATG though?
Let's say 6+ GS titles. I would refine strong era to three or more ATGs, each playing between their first and last GS title.
 
RS said:
You don't enjoy heavyweight any time recently?

What I don't like is they don't fight quite as much as they should and how much money and contracts are involved but that's the way it is.
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Yeah, I've enjoyed certain fights. Usyk's achievement is very impressive. I guess it's a bit like Djokovic, completing the sport sort of thing. It's not so bad, today's heavyweight division might be the pinnacle if we compare it with another era. Not taking any shots at Wlad today. Showing that I can still evolve.
 
Poisoned Slice said:
Yeah, I've enjoyed certain fights. Usyk's achievement is very impressive. I guess it's a bit like Djokovic, completing the sport sort of thing. It's not so bad, today's heavyweight division might be the pinnacle if we compare it with another era. Not taking any shots at Wlad today. Showing that I can still evolve.
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No need to hold back you can talk about Wlad however you want :p. I liked his boxing style since I like tactical boxing as much as a slugfest but I completely understand why people lost interest in that era is was one guy just mostly dominating apart from maybe Vitali who he wasn't going to fight because they were brothers. Feels like in the last 7-10 years the fun is back though even if it still probably won't reach the nostalgia levels of the Mike Tyson or Muhammad Ali times.
 
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RS said:
I enjoyed the first one more. I thought both were more aggressive first time this time it was more tactical.
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Yeah. Both were holding back a bit. Usyk did just enough to win it. Have to say I'm impressed how he did it two times in a row with no major damage, considering huge height and weight disadvantage. Remarkable boxer.
 
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Biotic said:
Yeah. Both were holding back a bit. Usyk did just enough to win it. Have to say I'm impressed how he did it two times in a row with no major damage, considering huge height and weight disadvantage. Remarkable boxer.
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24 rounds with Fury and 24 rounds with AJ, two of the best giants in the modern boxing.

Usyk's definitely a special fighter.
 
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Fury did not dare to be great in the rematch. Yeah, cool that he wasn't making faces , laughing, or pretending to not take it seriously etc. The talk about being on the front foot triggered me like no other. Yeah, it's boxing talk, promoter talk, rubbish talk, but it still annoys me. Front foot, my goodness. Too scared of the counter.
 
RS said:
Did you think Fury won? I had it a bit closer than 116-112 but in the first fight I thought and split decision was generous to Fury.
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Usyk connected with more punches, he always will but i judge on punches that have an effect, not just light blows that do nothing other than rack up points. I thought Fury landed more telling blows. However clearly he cannot knock this guy out and i suspect age has robbed him of his speed and a bit of power. Still, he will end Joshua!!
 
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zagor said:
Nah, Usyk won, wasn't as wide as the cards probably (I'd score it 115-113 in favour of Usyk) but he won. And I was rooting for Tyson because I wanted a trilogy.

Fury has to fight out of his comfort zone against Usyk because in that fight he's not the one who is the better boxer, better counter-puncher, better footwork, with better workrate which is otherwise always the case when it comes to any other opponent still (even at age of 36).

There's not much Fury can do with the match-up being as it is right now. He can't do a Chisora and back his chin against Usyk and just walk him down because as we've seen he can get rocked by Usyk's power and well because that's not really his natural style (despite all the Kronk school talk). He can't do what he usually does which is fight outside and use clinch to drain the other guy's energy because Usyk is just too slick and I'd say deceptively strong, watch both fights and see how many times he got out of the clinch or just avoided it. I think Fury came prepared both times and really fought the best he possibly could (if anything, he deserves praise for it) but the combination of all the things Usyk brings to the table in the match-up is just too much for him. He can't match Usyk's stamina, he can't match his workrate, he can't clinch him down, he doesn't have enough power to get him out of there or the chin to walk through Usyk's shots.

His only path to victory would have been to roll the dice completely and just go for it but honestly, that would just end in him being stopped, he was very close to being stopped in the first fight regardless. I don't think Fury has ATG chin, he has ATG power of recovery (possibly the greatest I've seen) and those are two different things, plus I also think Wilder trilogy definitely took some physicality and punch resistance out of him. Usyk IMO has a much better chin, his most underrated attribute, I've seen him take a flush from AJ who hits like a truck and only get knackered when other guys would have been seriously hurt or just went to sleep.

Now given the wide scorecards in the UD victory, maybe the judges would have given it to Usyk regardless but in these two fights, there was no need for the fix. They were close fights and Fury was his toughest opponent arguably but Usyk clearly won both of them IMO.

Do I think Usyk is getting a bit overrated as a heavyweight? Sure, there are a number of ATG heavyweights I would have favored against him peak for peak (Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis for one, Holyfield was also a monster) but in this generation, he has proven to be the best. Tyson Fury could have (and IMO would have) been the best if he lived an athlete's life and didn't put his body through so much abuse over the years but it is what it is, the guy had his share of personal demons and it took its toll on him. He never really fulfilled his potential.

@RS Tell me if you disagree. I'm certainly no expert, just a casual fan of the sport.
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Great post, and i agree with most of it bar Fury not realising his potential. For me he is the best heavyweight of his generation as i do think he won both fights the way i score fights, which is not on number of punches landed, but quality of shots landed. which i think Fury landed more of, but i have to say your analysis was brilliant as to why Usyk is a bad match up for Fury as the reality is Fury couldnt knock him out. I do think Fury was probably past it though in the fights, say a sort of Federer 2009-2011 level boxer if you get the analogy and reminiscent of Eubank in his fights with Collins. Just lost a bit of power and speed for different reasons of course, Eubank never got over Watson, and Fury as you correctly state, sadly eventually let his lifestyle catch him out.
There may be a third fight, after all split decisions are always controversial and i think there would be huge demand as ultimately people want to see a knock out although as time marches on it probably would be Usyk who would get that knock out now id think. Fury may as well take the pay off and clean Joshua's clock.
 
messiahrobins said:
Usyk connected with more punches, he always will but i judge on punches that have an effect, not just light blows that do nothing other than rack up points. I thought Fury landed more telling blows. However clearly he cannot knock this guy out and i suspect age has robbed him of his speed and a bit of power. Still, he will end Joshua!!
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Neither was really hurt this time around.
 
messiahrobins said:
Great post, and i agree with most of it bar Fury not realising his potential. For me he is the best heavyweight of his generation as i do think he won both fights the way i score fights, which is not on number of punches landed, but quality of shots landed. which i think Fury landed more of, but i have to say your analysis was brilliant as to why Usyk is a bad match up for Fury as the reality is Fury couldnt knock him out. I do think Fury was probably past it though in the fights, say a sort of Federer 2009-2011 level boxer if you get the analogy and reminiscent of Eubank in his fights with Collins. Just lost a bit of power and speed for different reasons of course, Eubank never got over Watson, and Fury as you correctly state, sadly eventually let his lifestyle catch him out.
There may be a third fight, after all split decisions are always controversial and i think there would be huge demand as ultimately people want to see a knock out although as time marches on it probably would be Usyk who would get that knock out now id think. Fury may as well take the pay off and clean Joshua's clock.
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I think Fury's best shape I ever saw was probably Wilder 2. We can always wonder how much him not looking after his body has taken toll but Uysk to be fair isn't exactly young either and his style is also very taxing.
 
Biotic said:
Yeah. Both were holding back a bit. Usyk did just enough to win it. Have to say I'm impressed how he did it two times in a row with no major damage, considering huge height and weight disadvantage. Remarkable boxer.
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I wonder if Uysk will ever go into boxing coaching when he is done.
 
SamprasisGOAT said:
What is fight delelopment?

MMA has stand up fighting and and ground fighting. It’s way more complete
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Fights end quicker. It's just my opinion.

I just don't find it as enjoyable as boxing and probably never will. I just prefer striking to ground work but I can get why people prefer MMA.
 
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