The Tale of Captain Hook - a USTA story

Unforced Terrors

Unforced Terrors

Rookie
Captain Hook has terrorized the seas of our local 4.5 league for years, having gone to playoffs every season, but always falling short of the elusive white whale we call Nationals. Last year was particularly rough as he lost to the notorious Captain Orange in the sectional finals despite having his strongest crew to date. On his shameful voyage home following his defeat, Captain Hook hatched a plan to copy the tactics of Captain Orange. He texted his men to be ready to dull their swords and eat their pride for the Fall season.

His main plan involved keeping his strongest crew members from jumping to the 5.0 ship at year end. He took advantage of the local league, a neighboring league, and even had his First Mate captain a rival team to help his plan along. The other Captains in the local league would also help, unknowingly and knowingly.

There was Captain Sun, who lets Captain Hook get away with fabricated scores and turned a blind eye to the obvious tanking of matches. This relationship ended up getting Captain Hook suspended, but that's a tale for another time. There's Captain Rosa, a prideful captain that thinks of her team as a dark horse, even though they have never beaten Captain Hook. Captain Hook's men would easily tank matches vs Captain Rosa as she would consider any notion of tanking as a 'discredit' to her team. Then there was Captain Stallion, who was concerned about getting bumped up himself, so he worked with Captain Hook to make up an entire match to control his rating in exchange for helping Captain Hook's best players control theirs.

The plan ended up fairly successful as only 1 player ended up getting bumped without being able to appeal. Captain Hook should have no problem getting his appealed players qualified while avoiding strikes (Thanks to Captain Sun and Rosa). His name won't be listed as the team captain due to suspension, but he will be behind the scenes nonetheless. With Captain Orange keeping a low profile this year due to winning literally everything last year, anything short of Nationals for Captain Hook would be a complete failure.

Another thing to note is that his Captain's Log (blog), which he has upkept religiously with a recap of every single match over the years was eerily missing any Fall entries. It doesn't take a pirate to figure out why.
 
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PFG1 said:
And this is why I refuse to play Mens Open, I mean Mens 4.5 League play.

Why and how the USTA allows these shenanigans is beyond me. Its a running joke. Everyone knows it. And no one seems to care.
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To be fair to the USTA, purposeful tanking is a hard thing for them to punish without hard evidence or involved players being willing to come forward.
There was another post on here where ideas were thrown around about how to identify tanking using statistical methods, but we'll see if any of that ends up getting implemented in the future.
 
@Unforced Terrors the purposeful tanking is only part of the problem.

You've got Mens 4.5 teams who have international players on the roster. With freaking ATP points. But they never played college tennis in the states. So they get to self rate as 4.5

ATP Points. Playing 4.5 level. Let that sink in.

Sure, they only get 1 year before they are bumped. But its mind boggling that its even allowed to happen.
 
PFG1 said:
@Unforced Terrors the purposeful tanking is only part of the problem.

You've got Mens 4.5 teams who have international players on the roster. With freaking ATP points. But they never played college tennis in the states. So they get to self rate as 4.5

ATP Points. Playing 4.5 level. Let that sink in.

Sure, they only get 1 year before they are bumped. But its mind boggling that its even allowed to happen.
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Funny thing is that Captain Hook had a "4.5" years ago that had a national rank of #8 in Barbados. He also had a player that played high level tournies in South America that started USTA as a self fated 4.0...
Wouldn't the USTA be able to see that the player has ATP points if the player is grievanced? Another thing I've seen are players using variations of their names to get around the self rating.
 
Unforced Terrors said:
Funny thing is that Captain Hook had a "4.5" years ago that had a national rank of #8 in Barbados. He also had a player that played high level tournies in South America that started USTA as a self fated 4.0...
Wouldn't the USTA be able to see that the player has ATP points if the player is grievanced? Another thing I've seen are players using variations of their names to get around the self rating.
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Here are the self-rating guidelines. If any of this information is falsified or omitted, the player should be open to a self-rating grievance:


Ranking in the top 1000 in the last 5 years - automatic 7.0
Ranking outside the top 1000 in the last 5 years - automatic 6.5

Ranking in the top 400 more than 5 years ago - 5.5 @ 46, 5.0 @ 56, 4.5 @ 66
Ranking outside the top 400 more than 5 years ago - 5.5 @ 36, 5.0 @ 46, 4.5 @ 56

Satellite/Futures tour less than 5 years ago w/points - 5.5 @ 35
Satellite/Futures tour less than 5 years ago, no points - 5.0 @ 35

Satellite/Futures tour more than 5 years ago w/points - 5.0 or 4.5 @ 40
Satellite/Futures tour more than 5 years ago, no points - 4.5 or 4.0 @ 40

If the player has ATP points, then 4.5 rating is allowed if they last played in a professional tournament more than 5 years ago, are 40+, and never got a ranking. Or if they were ranked lower than 400 and are at least 56. This assumes no other criteria apply (i.e. college experience, etc.). If they haven't played pro tournaments in 5+ years and got no points and no ranking, then they are allowed to self-rate 4.5 (again, assuming there are no college or other criteria preventing it) or even 4.0 if they are at least 40.
 
J_R_B said:
If the player has ATP points, then 4.5 rating is allowed if they last played in a professional tournament more than 5 years ago, are 40+, and never got a ranking. Or if they were ranked lower than 400 and are at least 56.
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Way off topic, but just curious... if you have at least one ATP point doesn't that mean you have a ranking?
Looking at the ATP rankings if you go down far enough to 1600 or so you start to see all the players with a single point.

Back on topic, this one is crazy: Satellite/Futures tour more than 5 years ago, no points - 4.5 or 4.0 @ 40
If you were ever good enough to enter satellites or futures, then no way are you 4.0 at age 40, unless you've had a limb amputated or something.
 
Chalkdust said:
Way off topic, but just curious... if you have at least one ATP point doesn't that mean you have a ranking?
Looking at the ATP rankings if you go down far enough to 1600 or so you start to see all the players with a single point.

Back on topic, this one is crazy: Satellite/Futures tour more than 5 years ago, no points - 4.5 or 4.0 @ 40
If you were ever good enough to enter satellites or futures, then no way are you 4.0 at age 40, unless you've had a limb amputated or something.
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Don't shoot the messenger, LOL. I have no idea on the first question. On the second, 4.0 for a 40 year old who was good enough to take a chance on Futures tournaments seems a more than a bit low, unless they played just a handful of Quixotic qualifying draws and got double bageled every time.
 
J_R_B said:
...
Ranking outside the top 1000 in the last 5 years - automatic 6.5

...

Satellite/Futures tour less than 5 years ago w/points - 5.5 @ 35
Satellite/Futures tour less than 5 years ago, no points - 5.0 @ 35

Satellite/Futures tour more than 5 years ago w/points - 5.0 or 4.5 @ 40
Satellite/Futures tour more than 5 years ago, no points - 4.5 or 4.0 @ 40
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I am guessing this is referring to ATP points vs ITF points. Someone with one ATP point would be ranked on the ATP ("Ranking outside the top 1000"), but someone could win a round or two in ITF Futures qualifying and get ITF points ("Satellite/Futures tour ... w/points), who may not advance far enough to get any ATP points.
 
J_R_B said:
Don't shoot the messenger, LOL. I have no idea on the first question. On the second, 4.0 for a 40 year old who was good enough to take a chance on Futures tournaments seems a more than a bit low, unless they played just a handful of Quixotic qualifying draws and got double bageled every time.
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Yeah... I have a hitting partner that played some futures but never actually got a point... he is now early 40's... if he wanted to, he could easily bagel and breadstick me... and I'm 4.5/5.0.
 
Chalkdust said:
Yeah... I have a hitting partner that played some futures but never actually got a point... he is now early 40's... if he wanted to, he could easily bagel and breadstick me... and I'm 4.5/5.0.
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I know someone over 56 who had an ATP ranking over 400 and who would terminate with extreme prejudice all but the ringer-iest 4.5s. I guess much would depend on the physical condition and playing habits of the person in question, so it's not an unreasonable guideline. That's why they call them guidelines. We should just appreciate this wonderful system that we have.
 
Quick Update: Captain Hook's suspension is over and their team has already secured their local league with 2 matches still left to play. I predict that they will tank the last match/not take it seriously to "throw a bone" to Captain Rosa.
One thing I am surprised about is that they currently lack singles depth for sectionals. Let's see if they add a last minute ringer or try to ride out their doubles to nationals.
 
Unforced Terrors said:
Funny thing is that Captain Hook had a "4.5" years ago that had a national rank of #8 in Barbados. He also had a player that played high level tournies in South America that started USTA as a self fated 4.0...
Wouldn't the USTA be able to see that the player has ATP points if the player is grievanced? Another thing I've seen are players using variations of their names to get around the self rating.
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USTA only cares if the check clears. They could force people to use coaches ( you schedule a hit with a local coach pay 20$) to get a rating like was intended but then realized they didn’t make money from that so they said self rate and have a nice day.
usta is the biggest scam since the Pga Tour. Except I don’t ever have to worry about the Pga
 
J B said:
USTA only cares if the check clears. They could force people to use coaches ( you schedule a hit with a local coach pay 20$) to get a rating like was intended but then realized they didn’t make money from that so they said self rate and have a nice day.
usta is the biggest scam since the Pga Tour. Except I don’t ever have to worry about the Pga
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Not true anymore. Any appeal, self rated player is subject to greviance and you can greviance them at sectionals even despite the last updated rules. They really have to not play any form of tourneys or juniors, ranking etc to clear. This yr saw a lot of players DQ for random reasons that has nothing to do with the self rate chart and USTA just says "that chart is simply a reference" it's not strict guidelines to save someone. If you get enough ppl to complain they will do something as long as they're not C rated
 
Cheating in USTA is like steroids in pro sports. Everyone does it to keep up because there's no way to win without doing it. USTA is a disgusting piece of trash.
 
crazy thing is this story could apply to like 15 different teams that I know of and that's only in about a 50 mile radius, can't imagine the cheating going on nationwide. Heard a few stories of someone else playing at nationals that wasn't even on the team.
 
Everyone does it to keep up because there's no way to win without doing it.
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Yep. True story.

And at least in my area, its resulting in reduced participation. Folks are tired of the shenanigans.

And you'd think, with the increase in popularity of pickle ball, that the USTA would do everything in their power to protect the golden goose of League play and try to grow the sport, but it doesn't appear so.
 
PFG1 said:
Yep. True story.

And at least in my area, its resulting in reduced participation. Folks are tired of the shenanigans.

And you'd think, with the increase in popularity of pickle ball, that the USTA would do everything in their power to protect the golden goose of League play and try to grow the sport, but it doesn't appear so.
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Same here. I know of one group that has stopped playing. With more to follow. When the USTA finally dies they have only themselves to blame.
 
I completely agree that it's not good for league tennis and some teams quit, but then again Dallas had 1500 new players sign up for USTA league just last year alone, it will take them a few years to get disgruntled and quit lol.
 
MarinaHighTennis said:
Not true anymore. Any appeal, self rated player is subject to greviance and you can greviance them at sectionals even despite the last updated rules. They really have to not play any form of tourneys or juniors, ranking etc to clear. This yr saw a lot of players DQ for random reasons that has nothing to do with the self rate chart and USTA just says "that chart is simply a reference" it's not strict guidelines to save someone. If you get enough ppl to complain they will do something as long as they're not C rated
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This doesn’t change the fact that USTA created a rating system based on skills. That system is not being used. Plenty of people are 4.0s and can’t hit a decent serve or backhand. There are 4.5s that can only slice.
 
J B said:
This doesn’t change the fact that USTA created a rating system based on skills. That system is not being used. Plenty of people are 4.0s and can’t hit a decent serve or backhand. There are 4.5s that can only slice.
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I legitimately think something that would massively help USTA (and be a huge undertaking) is hitting the ratings reset button. In too many areas becoming a 5.0 is a recreational death sentence, being a 3.0 is impractical (and unorganized), 4.0 includes everything from people that can barely play to former Div 1 guys who either tanked or lied. USTA says that a good 3.5 (3.50) should be able to 0 & 0 a bad 3.5 (3.01) and I think that’s too wide a net for a rating system.
 
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If you play any other adult sports, you’ll have to play the equivalent of Open division in tennis or maybe there are 2 categories at best. Here we have a system with 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0 categories for adult players to play only people at their own level and tennis players are still biatching/moaning that the category divisions are not airtight. And then they wonder why tennis players are considered soft by almost all other athletes in the US.
 
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socallefty said:
If you play any other adult sports, you’ll have to play the equivalent of Open division in tennis or maybe there are 2 categories at best. Here we have a system with 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0 categories for adult players to play only people at their own level and tennis players are still ********/moaning that the category divisions are not airtight. And then they wonder why tennis players are considered soft by almost all other athletes in the US.
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Your best post ever.

If the guy across the net happens to have atp points, you got lucky that day. I consider it a treat whenever I have a chance to play against someone with world class background.
 
socallefty said:
If you play any other adult sports, you’ll have to play the equivalent of Open division in tennis or maybe there are 2 categories at best. Here we have a system with 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0 categories for adult players to play only people at their own level and tennis players are still biatching/moaning that the category divisions are not airtight. And then they wonder why tennis players are considered soft by almost all other athletes in the US.
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Volleyball, beach Volleyball, Soccer, Softball, Kickball, Flag Football, Golf (in their own special way) , just a handful that all have as many or more level variations than tennis.
 
Unforced Terrors said:
Quick Update: Captain Hook's suspension is over and their team has already secured their local league with 2 matches still left to play. I predict that they will tank the last match/not take it seriously to "throw a bone" to Captain Rosa.
One thing I am surprised about is that they currently lack singles depth for sectionals. Let's see if they add a last minute ringer or try to ride out their doubles to nationals.
Click to expand...
you called it for their singles but its probs the same for most teams.

Captain Hook didn't win the 18+ last weekend. Looks like all his players got gassed out bc they got destroyed in the finals besides his top team.
 
MarinaHighTennis said:
you called it for their singles but its probs the same for most teams.

Captain Hook didn't win the 18+ last weekend. Looks like all his players got gassed out bc they got destroyed in the finals besides his top team.
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When I saw the lineups, I knew that they would be beatable at 1S, 2S, and 3D. The best singles player for Captain Hook did not play the final due to being worn out from previous matches. I was surprised at the results of 1D. 3D was up a set and 5-1, but either they gave up after realizing the match was decided or the other team legit came back.

Happy for the winners as I used to captain many of them in previous seasons! A legit team of 4.5's with no ringers.
 
They really don't. I play with them regularly and the team was just deep with a lot of heart.
They had one older player that was bumped down from 5.0. Smart player with a weak serve and chip backhand, but more of a 4.5.

The stars literally aligned for this team. They had a favorable draw in a 1 flight format, drawing 2 of the weaker regions. During the semis, the best dubs pair for the opponents could not play due to work and they managed a 3-2 victory off 3 third set tiebreakers. In the final, they faced a team that crushed them in the 40+ season final but managed to seize the moment. True underdogs.
 
Unforced Terrors said:
They really don't. I play with them regularly and the team was just deep with a lot of heart.
They had one older player that was bumped down from 5.0. Smart player with a weak serve and chip backhand, but more of a 4.5.

The stars literally aligned for this team. They had a favorable draw in a 1 flight format, drawing 2 of the weaker regions. During the semis, the best dubs pair for the opponents could not play due to work and they managed a 3-2 victory off 3 third set tiebreakers. In the final, they faced a team that crushed them in the 40+ season final but managed to seize the moment. True underdogs.
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I was actually there watching my husband and I agree they got lucky with the stars with both the draw and the semis. Everyone on my husband's team was saying that semi doubles team that sat out was probably the strongest team in that tourney and they definitely drew a crowd to their matches with all the noise. But the winners definitely deserved it especially with their lineups matching right to win just enough. They actually probably would've lost 3 of their matches if even 1 line of the doubles was inputted differently.

Edit: did a quick search and one of those players is rostered for 3 teams that all made sectionals. Guess he chose the wrong team lol.
 
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BaboFan said:
I was actually there watching my husband and I agree they got lucky with the stars with both the draw and the semis. Everyone on my husband's team was saying that semi doubles team that sat out was probably the strongest team in that tourney and they definitely drew a crowd to their matches with all the noise. But the winners definitely deserved it especially with their lineups matching right to win just enough. They actually probably would've lost 3 of their matches if even 1 line of the doubles was inputted differently.

Edit: did a quick search and one of those players is rostered for 3 teams that all made sectionals. Guess he chose the wrong team lol.
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You're definitely right that they would have lost 3 of their matches if even 1 line of dubs was inputted differently! Their captain was very lucky, very amazing, or a bit of both. In all the pivotal matches, they were able to match their most questionable dubs line against the opponent's best. I'm not saying their questionable dubs line was weak, but just a step down from the others. They are friends of mine so I hope they don't take offense at my comment lol. I also know that those guys would gladly be put in that position if it meant giving the team a better shot.
 
BaboFan said:
Edit: did a quick search and one of those players is rostered for 3 teams that all made sectionals. Guess he chose the wrong team lol.
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Can't that guy still play for the team that made Nationals? I thought that he was able to. Whether the captain/team lets him play is a different story though.
 
Creighton said:
This is what everyone says when it's their guys.

But you can't win unless you have ringers so some of them must be ringers.
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You actually don't. You can win with a deep team of "tweeners" (guys who are in between level and great at the lower level and low level at the next level up). If you look at a team and the key players are C or A rated, it's probably not a team leaning on ringers. The truly out of level players are S-rated because if you're that far out of level, you won't be able to hold the rating, and you won't ever get bumped back down. It's definitely easier to win without ringers in 40+ than 18+ since most of the shameless ringers are younger players. It's really rare to find 40+ guys good enough to be a 5.0 but without any past history who can rate at 4.0. My team that was 40+ national runner up in 2013 was like that and the Middle States team that won 40+ nationals in 2022 was like that as well.
 
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